News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Pip and aphro - I think my earlier "new shoes" analogy was spot on? ;) It seems like "newer, prettier, flashier, more stylish" airplanes is all that counts to you ladies, am I wrong?

Pip, I would expect this attitude from a Paris Hilton type of a woman but it's surprising to see you, someone who grew up around airplanes to be this superficial when it comes to travel. If you say "I don't care about anything else but comfort and won't fly LOT until they upgrade their fleet" then I'll understand. I won't agree with you but I'll understand - you simply want the "Manolo Blahniks" of airplanes. It's your right to demand what you want. However, I still do not agree with your use of the safety aspect as an excuse for not wanting to fly LOT. It's simply incorrect and unfair to them.

Everyone wants newer but is it really going to be better or safer?

STU - first of all, airplanes are like babies to pilots, the one you fly/used to fly is (almost) always the one you find to be the most "beautiful" bird in the sky. ...and it has nothing to do with our nationalities, I personally know several Air France and BA pilots who absolutely love Boeings and likewise know many Northwest (now Delta) and United pilots who think Airbus is great. It's all about what you are comfortable with and your preferences, both are great manufacturers.

When it comes to new products everything we know is based on initial tests and a lot of assumptions, speculations, etc. I'm somewhat torn on the Boeing 787 (and Airbus 350) which is why I took my time responding to your "plastic fantastic" question.

As you know Boeing 787 - the DreamLiner - will be an all composite airplane, so will the Airbus 350. Composite have existed in airplanes for a looong time but this will be the first time a commercial airliner's fuselage will be all or almost all composite. We get hit by lightning more often than people realize, most of the time they don't even realize it. Will the internal "ground" wiring be good enough to disperse all that energy? We all know what heat does to plastic materials. What about stress testing? How do you make partial fuselage repairs? Is that even possible? On an aluminum frame it's a non-event but what about materials that must cure in very specific temperatures and in perfect conditions? How will the fuselage handle a gear-up landing? How about a hard landing? How do you inspect for fatigue cracks? ...how do you repair them? All those questions are way, way above my pay grade and I'm glad they are.

Many years ago there was an Air Transat Airbus 310 that lost a big part of it's rudder. It happened totally out of the blue, in smooth air cruise while the autopilot was engaged. In previous rudder separation incidents they always blamed the pilots for it yet this time it happened while on autopilot; additionally this time everyone survived (rudder separation is usually a catastrophic failure).

Here's an article about this incident:

m.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/mar/13/theairlineindustry.internationalnews?cat=business&type=article

The rudder in question was/is built of composite materials.

Here are some excerpts from this article which highlight my concerns, please read it all.


Also, please look at the photos in the link below.

iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/others/rudder-sep.htm

I get chills every time I look. Did something similar happen to the Air France Airbus 330 flying from Brazil? It has the same type of an all-composite tail. Yes, the pitot tubes had failed (preliminary investigation results) but had the pilots maintained the correct pitch (aoa probe) and power setting they could've flown without an airspeed indicator (part of our training). Maybe they had inadequate training (numerous newspaper articles seem to imply that) or maybe something else happened? Who knows, they always blame the pilots no matter what. Yes, shorthairthug, pilots get blamed whether they fly Boeings or Airbus so your "Yankee and Boeing attacks" were totally misplaced.

Am I paranoid? No, I don't think so. Would I fly Airbus aircraft in general and now the B787 and A350? Absolutely! I'm just cautious when it comes to composites being use on control surfaces of an airplane and now on ALL of the airplane.

I simply hope that composite aircraft won't become the Comet airliners of our generation. For those who don't know -"de Havilland DH 106 Comet was the world's first commercial jet airliner to reach production ... However, a few years after introduction into commercial service, Comet airframes began suffering from catastrophic metal fatigue, which in combination with cabin pressurisation cycles, caused two well-publicised accidents where the aircraft tore apart in mid-flight..."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

So STU to answer your question, some very, very, very bright people are involved in the design of the Boeing 787 and Airbus 350 and I trust their knowledge and experience. I wouldn't be honest though if I said that I never worry. Not an alarmist but I hope my reservations make sense to you.

----

By the way, to defuse the whole jumbojet debate - "Whale" is the most common nickname pilots will use for a Boeing 747 so a 747 pilot is a "whale driver" ("tamer", "rider", etc.) :-)

A Boeing 737 is called Guppy, but also Pocket-Rocket, Baby Boeing, Fat Albert (C-130 is also called Fat Albert)

B757 - "A-Man's-Wet-Dream" (long legs and big boobs :-) it has a sturdy landing gear and the engines are large for the size of aircraft)

The new Boeing 787 has already earned the dubious nickname "TupperJet" (obviously from plastic Tupperware :).

Airbus (in general) is sometimes called ScareBus. Airbus 320 is the MiniBus, ViveLeBus, NintendoJet, ScareBus, Chainsaw, Grasscutter (the last 2 are pretty unfair names in my view but they came about during the infamous Toulouse air show, and the names stuck).

A380 Double-Decker, LuftBus, LuftÜberBus, BubbleBus, MaxiJet, Supposedly SuperJumbo too although I've never heard a pilot use that term as of yet.

Embraer (regional jets, LOT has 25 of them) are called Jungle-Jets (they're built in Brazil) but also Pencil-Jets and Ultra-Narrow-body (very skinny fuselage).

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Meet Poland's hero pilot

Capt. Tadeusz Wrona, right, and co-pilot Jerzy Szwarc smile at a news conference in Warsaw on Wednesday.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Pilot who executed a textbook belly landing in Poland is being hailed as national hero
Tadeusz Wrona has worked for LOT Polish Airlines for 20 years
"I finally felt full relief only when the purser reported that the cabin was empty," he says
Wrona says he's flown the Boeing 767 about 500 times and never had any trouble

(CNN) -- Capt. Tadeusz Wrona still has trouble sleeping. The night after executing a spectacular belly landing in Poland, the veteran pilot tossed and turned until 4 a.m.

cnn.com/2011/11/03/travel/poland-hero-pilot/

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Why doesn't the quote function work from anymore? Well, at least from an iPhone? It sucks to have to type the HTML code just to quote someone! :(


You're absolutelly correct and maybe it's even somewhat healthy for a nation to have something very positive to be talking about.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]


As Stu commented earlier, real heroes hate to be labeled as such.
----------

Polish Pilot Rejects Hero Label After Crash Landing Boeing Jet

(Bloomberg) -- The pilot who safely crash landed a Boeing Co. 767 on its belly at Warsaw's main airport rejected being labeled a hero as Poland's national carrier said flights from the capital may resume later today.

"Talk of heroes is an exaggeration," Tadeusz Wrona said at a press conference. "I'm convinced that any pilot would have done the same as I did."

Wrona tried to extend the landing gear numerous times after an on-board computer indicated a hydraulic fault. He had flown the same plane some 500 times and had "never had any difficulty" with the wheels, he said.

Warsaw's Chopin airport remained closed after the plane operated by Polskie Linie Lotnicze LOT SA landed on its fuselage yesterday on the main runway. None of the 231 passengers and crew on the flight from Newark, New Jersey, were injured.

LOT is losing 12,000 passengers a day while Warsaw's airport is closed, Pirog said. Most financial costs from yesterday's events are covered by insurance, he added. The airport services about 400 flights and transports 25,000 passengers daily, airport spokesman Przemyslaw Przybylski said.

"This is all part of a pilot's training, but they knew the routine, the airport was ready and everybody walked away, which is how you measure the success of these things," said David Learmount, a former Royal Air Force pilot and safety editor at Flight International magazine. "It's a rare event. You could fly every day of your life and it wouldn't happen."

businessweek.com/news/2011-11-02/polish-pilot-rejects-hero-label-after-crash-landing-boeing-jet.html

History / 1937 travel brochure for Poland [15]

Good deal, see you then. :)

History / 1937 travel brochure for Poland [15]

Not sure if it's in there but anything travel related. How to get to/from Poland, how long it took and the prices they had to pay would be an interesting perspective.

PS.
Damn I hate those time limits on editing our own posts.

Meant to say "checked out" and "comparatively speaking" in my previous post.

History / 1937 travel brochure for Poland [15]

Yeah, all languages evolve; expressions we use today might be made fun of tomorrow. My friend's dad who's in his 80s sometimes uses the term gay when describing happiness. He has dementia and has forgotten the "new" connotation of the word.

Either way, I checkout out your blog, the brochure you found is a neat window into the past.

The Polish currency - Złoty has gone through numerous devaluations and even a re-denomination (dropping zeros) since then but today it's a stable, freely convertible currency. What I found interesting was the huge drop in the relative value of the British pound, competitively speaking.

From the 1937 brochure:
"...The Polish zloty, divided into 100 groszy, is worth approximately 20 american cents or 10d. For conversion of dollars into zloty multiply by five. The English pound is worth roughly 25 zloty, a penny is equivalent to 10 groszy.7 ... Cafés usually charge 1 zloty for coffee, while an excellent pastry costs 30 groszy..."

So:
20  = 1zł
$1 = 5zł (today $1 is about 3zł)

Meanwhile:
£1 = 25zł (today £1 is about 5zł)

A huge change wouldn't you say?

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Stu: BTW ... only real heroes don't consider themselves to be one.

So true. Which is why I use the term they so much prefer. Great aviators.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Polmed - just a few minor corrections - in an emergency an airplane can and will dump fuel if necessary (if properly equipped of course), no such thing as "not allowed" in an emergency. You're correct about the jet fuel evaporating prior to reaching ground BUT only if it's done approximately 5000 feet above the ground or higher. Ambient temperature changes that altitude somewhat.

As many of us here mentioned before, the crew did in fact perform very well under the circumstances. Kudos to them all. I bet the crew would find the "best pilots in the world" hurrahs somewhat embarassing but whatever suits your boat.

As far as Cat II approaches - yes, those are pretty standard approaches worldwide. I'll have to dig through my charts but I'm fairly certain Warszawa has cat IIIB approaches (much better than II) which basically allows us to land with practically no visibility. Most larger airports have those.

Smolensk - I'd much rather leave it out of here but just re-read the very last sentence in your own comment starting with "if the same conditions..." and focus on the word "given". As a captain (or commander when on a mil mission) nothing can be "given" to me. I can and very often refuse ATC's requests. I won't spoil this thread with any more comments on that subject. This is a great thread, please let's keep it that way. Let's leave out nationalism and focus on professionalism. Much appreciated.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Ed - I hate comparisons, it's not fair to the pilots involved and frankly somewhat hard to measure. Hudson River - minutes to make a potentially fatal decision followed by a water landing (they've ran the very same scenario in the simulator trying to glide back to the airport - they wouldn't have made it.) Warszawa, over 7 hours of preparations (if the reports of early gear/hydraulic system malfunction indications are true) but a much heavier aircraft. I'd say both crews performed very well under stress. I'd say they should be proud of themselves and they all make us proud.

I like competitions but this whole idea of "our pilots are the best of the best" is something I leave to the pilots themselves. Too often it turns into nationalistic bashings on Internet message boards. Personally I wouldn't call any of the pilots involved a hero but a great aviator. Trust me when say they'd much prefer that title. I went to a seminar with Sully where he said he hated being called a hero. He understood people's need for a hero but felt the title belonged to those in the military risking their lives each and every day. He also hated the media's focus on him only, didn't like the fact they'd forgotten the rest of his crew. I agree with all of his assertions.

So to summarize my reply, all the pilots involved in the two incidents performed admirably. No single nation holds the title of "best pilots in the world."

PS. Sorry about your fear of flying, it can be overcome with some help but I sympathize with your thoughts based on your past, bad experiences.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Sidliste - sorry, missed your earlier comment but you're correct on the landing speeds and why we prefer to land light.
--------

Ok, brace for a long reply...

pip: "...boeing sent people over to cover their asses..."
- Nonsense, it's a standard procedure for all accident and all aircraft manufacturers. IF they find some kind of structural damage, fatigue corrosion, design flaws, etc. they will promptly issue a mandatory AD (airworthiness directive) to all Boeing 767 operators worldwide. Again, airline safety is based on learning from ALL incidents and accidents, worldwide. No conspiracy here.

pip: "...I have flown transcontinental warsaw to north america loads of times. I will not do it until Lot gets their new fleet. The planes are falling apart. I have personal experience with this. This latest event is even more reason to not fly Lot."

- Really? Would you please share your experience of LOT airplanes falling apart?? Are you saying they're falling apart because they're old? Is that it? An airplane's age isn't as critical as most people seem to think but for the sake of your argument, do you realize that LOT puts most US and Canadian airlines to shame when it comes to their fleets' average age?

Polish Airlines LOT average fleet age is -> 8.7 years. That's pretty old right?

Or is it?

American Airlines -> 15.1 years
Delta -> 15.4
United Airlines -> 14.0 years
Southwest Airlines -> 15.3 years
USAirways -> 12.8 years

Well, at least all those Canadian airlines have brand-spanking new airplanes, right?

Not quite, only West Jet has newer aircraft with an average fleet age of 5.7 years. The remaining larger players:

Air Canada -> 11.4 years
Air Canada Jetz -> 18.6 years
Can Jet -> 10.8 years

(airfleets.net/ageflotte/fleet-age.htm)

Frankly you probably won't find an airline in the US with a newer fleet. JetBlue and Virgin America are possibly the only exceptions because both are fairly new start-ups. Of course, they only fly domestically and exclusively use narrow body aircraft.

The rankings on the website aren't necessarily 100% accurate as they change daily when airplanes are sold off, leased out, etc. but also because some airlines list their "express" subsidiaries separately. Overall however, the numbers clearly show that LOT's fleet is fairly "young" and of good quality.

You see, there's much more to aviation safety than just the airplanes' age. In my second, part-time guard job I fly heavy 4-engine jets all over the world without any problems whatsoever. Yet the average age of the fleet is - are you ready? - hold on to something -> 40+ years! With good maintenance, upgrades, training and adherence to procedures airplanes can be like wine, they get better with age. :-)

Don't use aircraft age as your only airline discriminator. Just because something looks new or is expensive doesn't mean it's actually "better". An unintelligent woman in new and very expensive shoes might look great but eventually she'll have to talk. Putting blahniks, chanels, or ferragamos on her feet won't make her any smarter. Likewise, a man won't grow wiser simply by driving an expensive car (nor will any of his body parts get any bigger lol)

What's my point here? Well, pilots, mechanics, dispatchers and flight attendants are the brains of an airline's operation. They don't need new, shiny tools to make it safe. Give them proper training, keep them motivated, help them to stay in love with their profession and miracles will happen.

I'm sure LOT has problems like all other airlines, I know nothing about their customer service but frankly that's not on my radar. My primary concern is airline safety.

pip: "I have also flown loads of times in my life. both my parents were in the Canadian air force- in no way would I ever claim to be an expert but I did grow up living on military bases and going to military schools- this pilot knew what he had to do and he did it. there is no conspiracy."

Agree 100% except I'd revise your comment from "this pilot..." to "THOSE pilots knew what THEY were doing."

There's no conspiracy here which is why I find it so surprising you'd attack LOT's safety record right after this greatly executed emergency landing? Imagine a team of cardiologists successfully performing an ultra complicated and a delicate quadruple-bypass surgery on a patient; as they're doing their rounds the very next morning they're being told - "I will never use this hospital again, the wall paint in the surgery room looks very old and ugly, and the vending machines in your waiting room are falling apart! I'll wait until you revamp this entire hospital before I use your services again." Would that be a logical response?

Pip - I used your reply because your comments irked me a little, felt like you were unnecessarily attacking my fellow aviators. Yet my reply is geared toward everyone on this thread, not just you - I didn't mean to single you out .

- I see too many strange, often erroneous assumptions about LOT and maybe even the entire country of Poland on this thread. Not too long ago Poland was withering away under the yoke of a tyrant - Związek Radziecki (Soviet U), she was abandoned behind the iron curtain. Yet those days are over. The entire country along with the 80+ years old airline has long moved on. The transition has been painful, expensive and sometimes slow BUT Poland of today is firmly a western-style democracy and LOT is firmly a safe, western-style airline.

Ok, rant over, sorry had to get it out of my system.

Just my view of course, ymmv.

--------

STU - just saw your question. Let me think about it before I reply. The real answer is way above my pay grade but I'll give you my personal thoughts on it once I get some sleep.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

SeanBM, PWEI, delphie, pip - they were holding while trouble-shooting. Standard procedure as you said, they were probably on the phone (satcom, phone link, acars, etc depending on their equipment) double and triple checking that they'd exhausted all other options. No one wants to bend any metal when they land.

Fuel dumping, although a possibility on the 767, almost certainly didn't happen, by the time they crossed the Atlantic their center fuel tank was empty and that's the tank you dump from on the 767. At this point burning fuel (i.e. flying) was their only option of lowering the landing weight of the aircraft, they definitelly wanted to land with the lowest amount of gas onboard possible. For one, "gas is your friend in the air but your enemy in a potential fire on the ground" but also because the lighter the weight the shorter the landing distance. With a gear-up landing (or ditching in the ocean) it's critical to keep the wings perfectly level for as long as possible, which they did.

Their possibly worst case scenario would've been if only one of the main landing fears had deployed, I'd have rather landed with no gear (think stability during the landing phase) than with just one main gear deployed.

Again, they did a good job, just like its taught in training, my flying career started by flying gliders but frankly I'm not sure if it'd have helped me in those circumstances, the engines worked fine and they brought the airplane to a "normal" landing with the exception of the gear not being deployed. Fairly calm winds and good weather helped too. Like I said, they did a great job but I think they'd be very uncomfortable if they read some of the "hero" comments on here; this was a well planned, methodically executed emergency landing with the gear in the up and locked position. Great professionals for sure.

Also, Boeing sending investigators to Poland is a normal procedure for ALL aircraft manufacturers, Airbus would've done the same. What is it with the hateful "Yankee" comments? Totally unnecessary to use hate toward America as an excuse to attack Boeing.

BBman: It's amazing that the LOT pilot was able to keep the plane straight. In contrast, watch this video.

BBman - although I know you wanted to emphasize the great job the LOT crew did - which they did - your comparison is very flawed. You wanna talk about true heroes? The pilots on the aircraft plummeting into the ocean are indeed real heroes. Hijacked, beaten up, cut up with knives, one of them bleeding to death, they manage to wrestle the controls from their suicidal hijacker right before he attempts to crash the airplane into a hotel. Note that one engine is already dead, they'd run out of gas. So they attempt to save the passengers by ditching it into the ocean, with one engine inoperative and the second about to flame out, while both pilots are being stabbed with a knife from behind, over and over again. The fact some 50 passengers survived is a true miracle. Yeah, some very, very different circumstances.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

PWEI:
Not really. My point was that all possible causes must be taken into account and until it is eliminated, that includes pilot error. There most certainly have in the past been times when pilots were first called heroes and later found to be very much at fault (the Kegworth crash springs to mind).

All true. I wouldn't have used the terrain warning analogy simply because it's still a very sensitive subject. Otherwise, it's true, everything has to and will be looked into. My personal prediction (just me!) is that the pilots will be found to have acted professionally and accordingly to all Boeing/LOT procedures. I'm somewhat biased of course but that's what I think.

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

PWEI: Forgetting to lower the undercarriage before landing would be as stupid as forgetting to pull up when the terrain warning system is shouting at you to pull up when you can not see the runway, i.e. no chance of it happening.

Considering the "other" accident has already been mentioned here this is a pretty morbid analogy, wouldn't you say? :(

PS. ADMIN - In the past I could highlight and quote from my iphone. This function doesn't seem to work anymore?

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Where do I start?
Ok
1)
"No professional would comment on cause of a plane failure"?? Really?? Here's just for your pleasure:
pprune.org/rumours-news/467899-polish-lot-767-wheels-up-landing.html

...and this is just one forum, there are many others not including the airline specific ones that are normally restricted to employees only. Within 6 hours of this incident we were already receiving information from Boeing and from other airlines. Why? Because learning from other accidents might save lives. I guaran-damn-tee you the current LOT crew had reviewed the Hudson River accident in the past, and many other accidents and incidents too; it's part of our culture, we learn from others to enhance everyone's safety.

2)
You say that I should be praising the crew. Well, did you actually read what I said? Please read it again because I think you totally missed my point. As isthatu2 correctly pointed out I did in fact praise the crew (thank you I2 btw), I have no idea why you tell me to shut up?? Perplexing to say the least but whatever suits your boat I guess.

isthatu2: ...skysoulmate did nothing but praise the flight crew..."
------

Polmed
The old duck tried to speculate on something he has no clue , even though he is a pilot . Why ? because he is not an engineer , he knows how to fly a plane , but he has got no idea about the plane construction , besides some general information the pilot should have .

...No one in Poland formalates any conclusive opinions . TVN 24 invites many experts to the studio and no one speculates on anything .
...So far they say that there was a failure of two systems . What is interesting is the fact that it happens rarely that the emergency system also failed..."

Old duck? Hmm, I'm in my 40s but I guess that's old for some here. LOL. I'm actually fairly "young" amongst my peers, lucked out and trained/got hired early on. ...and to confuse you even more, yes, I actually used to work as a flight engineer, in the past it was a fairly common transition for airline pilots - to start of as a flight engineer and progress to the pilot seat, so I'm not totally clueless but I digress.

I don't know why the gear failed to extend, neither do you or anyone else at this point. It will take a while for the investigation to be completed however I think I'm entitled to express my thoughts on what I think MIGHT have happened? To emphasize that this was just my speculation I added the highlighted portion in the sentence below:

"I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a maintenance error although it could be something else..."

We'll see, it was a very unusual event for sure but the crew did a great job. I said it in English and even tried to say it in Polish. Somehow you missed that? I'm thinking that my earlier Smolensk comments made you highly allergic to me. Yet even there you misstated my opinions, you cherry-picked the comments you agreed with and discarded the ones you did not agree with. Has the blind justice become the selective justice? Oh well, it's really depressing that everything becomes so antagonistic here, even something that is so positive...

I wish all the pro-Polish or anti-Polish pilots comments disappeared from this thread. Nationality is totally irrelevant here. There were two great pilots upfront on this flight; this time they happened to be two Polish males, tomorrow it could be 2 Italian females, or a mixed gender British crew, etc., etc. Let's focus on good airmanship rather than the nationalities, shall we?

PS. IF (I repeat, IF) this was a maintenance problem then it's possible it was performed in Sewark (yes, that's what most of us call that airport LOL) and if so it would be an American maintenance crew. Again, this has nothing to do with Polish or American, it has to do with two good pilots upfront who handled an emergency by the book. We (ntsb, etc) also have to figure out what happened so it won't happen again, everyone, please drop the nationalistic bs, doesn't belong here!

News / Polish hero pilot lands 767 without wheels. (Warsaw) [191]

Hi all,

I saw the video via a company safety forum (all airlines learn from accidents/incidents) and thought I'd chime in here.

First of all, well done to the crew! Text book gear-up landing, just the way it's taught in simulators.

I flew the 757/767 for many years, my 767 time is primarily in the -300 family which I believe is what LOT uses? I understand the crew knew there was a hydraulic system issue shortly after take off but decided to continue on. I probably would've made the same decision, it was just one system (center) and I'm sure they ran their checklists, contacted their dispatch & mx, looked into all their options, etc., etc. The fact the gear failed to extend in the alternate mode is very schocking to say the least. B767 is a very reliable aircraft and the alternate system for the gear is surprisingly simple and yet ingenious. Basically there are small electrical locks that unlock when activated which lets the gear to "free-fall" into the down and locked position. I'm schocked the gear failed to deploy in that mode. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a maintenance error although it could be something else. Either way, the comments relating to no wanting to fly on LOT until they upgrade the fleet are very misleading. Professionalism, training, good maintenance, etc., is 90 percent of an airline's safety record. What airplanes they fly is actually not as critical as many think (well, there are exceptions but generally speaking western manufacturers have very good safety records, enough about that). So I think that LOT is a perfectly safe airline (duh? ;)) and no one should be afraid to fly on them, I haven't but won't hesitate if an opportunity presents itself.

Just a few additional comments - Everyone remembers "Sully" - the "hero" pilot on Hudson river correct? Answer quickly - what was his co-pilot's name? Anyone? What about the flight attendants? See my point? The passengers love to choose a "hero" when in fact we always have a crew up there working together. Not sure about the term hero - it is after all our job. They did a great job!

As far as flying, remember that there were two pilots in that cockpit, the passengers tend to focus on one only, usually the captain, but remember that this is a crew concept, one person keeps flying while the other troubleshoots, runs checklists, etc. Each airline does it their own way, most let the pilot who kept flying when the incudent happened to keep flying while others, like USAirways make the captain take over. Doesn't matter, they're all pilots. I've had my share of incidents both as a first officer and as a captain and the other pilot's assistance was ALWAYS invaluable. We are always a crew!

Next time your flight gets delayed please remember this and other "good stories" and give us some slack. :-)

Again, gratuluję dwóch pilotów LOTu!

Not quick enough to revise...

Meant to say "gratulacje dla B767 LOT pilotów i flight attendants - a text book emergency gear-up landing and cabin evacuation! Kudos to you all!"

PS. Correct my Polish please, somehow it doesn't sound right...?

Love / Kiss on the eyes - Polish girl's way of being affectionate? [8]

Don't know if it's a Polish thing or not (born in Poland but moved to Sweden as a child) but when I was a kid my mamusia always kissed me (and my sister) on my closed eyelids first and then on my forehead after she'd read us a bed-time story. The kiss on the eyelids was to help us fall asleep and on the forehead so we'd have pretty dreams. It worked for us. :)

When I grew up I adopted this very tradition with every girlfriend I've ever kissed. Not on a first date of course but once we were very comfortable with each other. I've never heard a single complaint and in fact my now ex-wife absolutely adored this bed-time tradition. :))

..and before you wonder, no, that's not why she's now my ex.

UK, Ireland / I need help!! (problems with my Polish coworkers) [41]


Had you been writing letters and essays in English since you were a child you'd have been pretty good at it. As of now I have hard time believing you're a native English speaker (writer).

The other part, yes, your coworkers seem to be jerks for sure.

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]

and that's exactly why he should've talked to her and not him.

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]


Thank you! Finally some common sense. That's exactly what I meant, communicate with your date, not the guy. Either way, good luck in your dating pursuits but the one-night stand comment tells me you think women should be held to a much higher standard than us men. Not a good sign but I hope you'll change your mind one day and will become a man rather than just a horny and very sexist boy.

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]

I did put some of the blame on all three but yes, in my view "confused" acted the worst. It's all very pointless now but I do find it interesting you put most of the blame on the girl simply for talking to two guys, apparently talking to two of her friends makes her act promiscuously in your view. At the same time you never comment on the fact our "confused" friend was so smitten by his Polish friend that he went ahead and had a one-night stand with another chick to clear his head. So refresh my memory, who's acting promiscuisly again???

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]

That's right, have another one-night stand, that's the best way to find a "diamond"...

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]




Not too nice of you to quote me without reading the entire reply.


Yes, she was rude and I said that. However, since she was the one who invited the other guy over her date's choices should've been 1) speak up to HER (not him), or 2) leave.

PS. Those retarded no-name quotes drive me nuts. May whoever came up with them suffer from insomnia for the rest of his/her life.

Genealogy / Is Aleska a Polish baby name ? [42]


In Alaska I met a lady who's name was "Alyeska" which is derived from the Russian language which in turn was a butchered Aleutian (Inuit - Eskimo tribe) name for Alaska -> Alakshak, it means great land, great country. I don't think Aleska is a Polish name, sure doesn't sound like it.

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]


Really? So what's the "magic" number according to you? Would 80 minutes be ok? 60? 45?

The fact is he should've talked to her, not him. She's the one who invited the guy to the table, the guy didn't just show up on his own. The "overstaying" guy might have been clueless, maybe even rude but he was invited to the table by HER.

Any other "overstaying rules" imply that once you take a woman out you own her. Pure nonsense. She has a mind of her own and can do as she pleases, if she wants to be rude toward her date by inviting another guy over it's her prerogative. It's his prerogative to dump her or at the very least to mention something to her. Remember, she was the one who invited the other guy.

Po polsku / Co sądzicie o Polakami noszą koszulki z logami w języku Polskim? [26]

Świetny pomysł! Ja bym przetłumaczył na angielski też żeby mieć więcej wyboru :)

I bym napisał, "będę najlepszym kochankiem (i Tatą) w świecie!

Think of it as advertising to your prospective girlfriend/wife! ;)

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]


Well, I read all your comments and you seem like a pretty smart guy ...except when you drink.

Whenever in doubt, always ask yourself how you'd like if she did/said something similar to you? Drop this man versus woman thing or even the British girls versus the Polish girls comparisons. Deep inside we're all pretty similar, we want to have good time, meet this someone special and feel like we're very special to that person.

Women hate control freaks and they do it for a good reason. The majority of women who get abused and/or murdered nowadays get hurt by their "loved ones", usually a boyfriend, husband, ex-boyfriend or ex-husband. Those are the facts and you can't blame them for being extra cautious.

If I was there I'd find an excuse to leave and would go somewhere else. The next day she'd probably ask me why I left so early and I'd explain it to her. If she understood my reasons, apologized and said let's give it another try, I'd be more than happy to go out with her again. If she showed no understanding at all and treated me like dirt, I'd drop her from my view-finder, I deserve better.

For you to tell this guy to get lost was wrong because she was the one who asked him to come over, not you. To use an extreme in order to emphasize my point - if a woman was to cheat on you, don't get mad at the guy, get mad at her, she's the one who cheated, not him. (by "getting mad" I mean leave her, she's worthless).

PS. When you see someone you really like, stop drinking prompto, better yet, stay sober for a change. Obviously you aren't a happy-drunk type which usually means confrontations and drama the more you drink. Good luck to you.

Love / Don't want others to join us at a table - is it normal for Polish girls to get angry? [161]

I'm not a woman but if I was I'd slap you blue. Granted, the fifth-wheel guy might have been somewhat rude but so where you, in fact, you acted like a dikhead, you don't "own" her but that's what you made her feel like. This has nothing to do with your "in England, we don't... nonsense, this is about common sense.

Law / Why are the Poles following the Swiss Franc? [17]

This approach isn't really that unusual although it's not recommended for daily life expenditures (such as mortgages). If you think your own currency will rise, save in it and borrow in foreign currency. If you think it'll drop, do the reverse, borrow in it and save in foreign. I've diversified my savings to several currencies.

Law / Why are the Poles following the Swiss Franc? [17]

From today's Bloomberg.com

Poland Needs Franc-Hit Consumers to Propel Economy, Tusk's Adviser Says

Swiss Franc Effect
...The zloty's decline against the franc was 20 percent in the past two months, which may cut consumption by 0.4 percentage points, the economic council headed by Bielecki said in an Aug. 8 report. First-quarter consumption rose 3.9 percent from a year earlier.

Franc-denominated mortgages totaled 151.8 billion zloty in June, accounting for almost 53 percent of total home loans, according to the Polish financial regulator.
Tusk's government forecasts 4 percent economic growth for next year. Poland is relying on the expansion to narrow the budget deficit to 2.9 percent of gross domestic product in 2012 from 7.9 percent last year. The central bank last month lowered its growth forecast for next year to 3.2 percent..."

bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-10/poland-needs-franc-hit-consumers-to-propel-economy-tusk-s-adviser-says.html