POLES SUPERIOR TO BRITS?

You mean British style preservatives, I hope? Polish preservatives make the bread very chewy.

Yes, the British ones. I'd rather the bread lasted a little longer with preservatives than without. I have to toast Polish bread after 1 day or so as that's all it's good for. It's so dry otherwise.

Nathan Ukraine could not stand for itself in 1920. And it would not any time soon without substantial help from Polish state. Did not Poles defend at least some Ukrainian lives in 1920 by not letting them into the hands of the Soviets. (Remember Holodomor?) Having in mind the persecution of national Ukrainian movement in the second half of the 30's (also the Orthodox church) it is no comparison to what happened as a result of forced collectivization.

Anyway strict cooperation was the only way to go in the 20's. And some Polish political circles did try to get it going. Not giving the Ukrainians broad autonomy was a mistake. I guess there was also fear that completely independent Ukraine (the remainder that could have been cut out of Poland I remind) would be somehow turned against Poland (for example through communist infiltration) (to back some of these I would give an example of the chief of the Eastern department of Polish foreign ministry in1939 who was most probably a Soviet agent and effectively blinded Polish diplomacy or/and intelligence to the aims and intentions of Soviet policies - I know it is a a posteriori knowlegde)


I have reffered to the general remark about Polish nobility by Yoshi- that 10 per cent of the nation claimed to be nobles - i would not be surprised 30-40 per cent of those nobility where working their own land so were like todays village people. I know the realities in Ukrainian parts where different i.e. hardly any nobles working their own land relying on the labor of their local serfs.


it was not that simple most of the time - the lands of Ukraine that lay within the borders of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth were first a part of Lithuania in a personal later more strict union with Poland. These lands had their own nobility who were sworn to Lithuanian rulers. These people were Ruthenian gentry and the most of Lithuanian state was ruthenized. There were local princes (knjazi) like Wiśniowieccy, Ostrogscy and other - don't know the Ukrainian versions of the surnames. Until the Cossacks uprisings (or at least until some peasant revolts in the Ukraine not long before) you cannot talk of any Polish invasions of Ukraine (though you can talk of Polish invasions in the middle ages the times of Casimir III (Kazimierz Wielki) - but these were feudal things)

Anyway the Ukrainian (or Ruthenian) nobility were the lords of the local populace - they gradually polonized, there was also some eastern shift of Polish property - original Polish gentry bought lands in Ukraine or intermarried there (but there was no talk of forceful overtakes). And eventually the contrast emerged between noble classes who for the most part identified themselves with Polish culture and the local people - their serfs who held onto their language and faith. Btw polonization of the nobles did not as far as I know happen simulatnously with them accepting catholicism. And and important fact - it was far from complete in the times of Cossack uprisings - was not Chmielnitsky a noble man himself (of Orthodox faith and considering himself Ukrainian or Ruthenian). You should also take into account that some time before the Cossack uprisings the lands in question were transferred from Lithuania to Poland (Korona) (on both parties consent) mostly for inability of Lithuanian state to effectively defend the southernmost reaches of the land against Tartar incursions that plagued the land for quite long. So when the peasant revolt broke out and later Cossack uprisings Polish army acted on behalf of home rule of Poland (on behalf of nobility who were the political nation as they would call themselves - Ukrainian polonized or not nobility included)

There were also attempts at making the Commonwealth tri-fold but the Sejm (read rich nobility - don't know the stance of Ukrainian princes and magnates on this) opposed and the turmoil started for good.


i'm sorry but to my knowlegde you are quite misinformed (or base your opinion too much on a flim story) ;) this is not to state Poles were generally superior just defending the case of hussaria :P

uuufff a long post :)


the lands in question where one state then - a state of (Grand Duchess of) Lithuania whose ruling classes joined the union with Poland out of choice. it is somewhat simplifying the issue but it is not far from the truth. The two states actually grew into one organism in time.


I doubt it was ever the biggest force - perhaps largest country in Europe once - but the more territory the more forces you need to defend it and actually Poland (the Commonwealth) was sort of always short of these. (unwillingness of the nobility to get taxed)

Well argued, gumishu.

I think my top comment was actually referring to 20th Century, when Ukranian nationalism was more developed and Lithuania had declared independence in 1918.

However, thanks for very interesting information, especially in the previous post. It does make a decent discussion.

What? Is it some fairy-tale story?


Listen, I am not going to compare who did most damage Russia or Poland, both countries were oppressors and colonists. Polonius 3 was saying that you fought for freedom of others to defend your own. Is it a joke or you are talking about Kosciuszko again who fought on American continent? When did you fight for Ukraine's freedom? Ukraine fought against Poland and Russia for its freedom.

Then you are all transferring to Lithuanian rulers. But neither Ukrainian peasants, nor Cossacks were having problems with them. Churches were Orthodox, language was spoken, books were written, in order to get a state job you didn't have to change your religion or language (on your own land!!!!) as was in case of Polish politics.


Cossacks were fighting Ottoman empire and Turks well before Poland ever had any dealings with them. The only reason Poland wanted to change things was because it was scared of possibility of war with Ottoman empire. It started to impose registered number of army Cossacks could have. Remeber, Poland was not welcome on Ukrainian lands ever because your country knew nothing else but to enforce your religion, language and culture. One could not succeed in anything really unless you became somebody else - a Pole. I hope both sides understand their mistakes and now some superiority complex I see so often on this forum will eventually disappear for the well-being of future generations :)


Do you believe it, gumishu? I know that Romans wanted to give some powers to Egyptian pharaohs as well. But Egyptian pharaohs were against and turmoil began ;)


I know, but I showed you that your case is weak and wrong :)

comic books more likely

If it were comics, you would know about it.

You can find better bread in Poland - try bakery.


Good1 thank you for make me laugh.


fairy tale storys then - are they common in your country?
by the way east or west you living


When is the key but if you talking about times before 1848 there wasnt ukraine or ukrainias and thats the history man not some nationalistic dreams.

please read about Hadziacz union (more is explained in Polish entry in wikipedia)

Yeah, the bakery bread is very good indeed!

You don't buy your bread at the baker's normally Seanus??

How long did it last before in 1667 Poland and Russia partitioned Ukraine among themselves in Truce of Andrusovo? I like when you talk about partitions of your country with some anger and tears on the eyes whereas you partitioned my country one century before that. Hadziatch was signed in 1657 and corrected in 1659. Under new RP constitution of 1676, the Orthodox bishops could not communicate with Constantinopole patriarchate. Also in this treaty pope wanted recognition of his superiority which didn't please Orthodox christians. Also Hadziatch as well as Pereyaslaw I consider a treason of some Ukrainian political leaders such as Vyhowskyj and Chmel'nickyj. They should have fought to the end the way general Bohun proposed and never make any deals with Poland or Russia. But history is history and people learn on their mistakes if they are smart.


I don't understand what you wanted to say, Ironside. Please, explain.


There was no Germany and Germans, no Poland or Polish as well, but we consider them part of our own history, right? You have to start somewhere and also see the tendencies of those times and ideas that these people defended, their culture, language, religion, even soul.

No, usually at the deli out front. I should really go to the bakery. There is one called Toporek which is not so far from where I am.

I'd give the same advice in Britain.

If my local baker sold the kind of bread that so many Poles think of as English or British bread, they would very quickly go out of business. What's the cheapest bread from Biedronka like?

you're right Trevek - but in Britain baker's bread is more expensive than the supermarket thing as far as I can remember

Nathan

the whole thing started with the Brest Union - Polish Lithuanian side were trying to eradicate of Muscovite patriarchate influence but they went a wrong way giving in to the ambitions of Rome

it started a decline of Ruthenian elites - eventually after the bloody wars Ukraine was mostly devoid of any elites (most of originally Ruthenian nobility perished)

the whole country was heavily devasted and depopulated - it gave rise to Polish colonization of the place by peasants and nobility equally (which sparked even more animosity)

I don't understand what you wanted to say, Nathan. Please, explain.


I asked are you living what used to be Poland before IIwar or east.

Quality costs. Actually a lot of the freshly made bread in supermarkets is getting better. I tend to eat brown/wholemeal anyway. Can't stomach the white fluffy mother's prode stuff anymore.

Neither I could while in Brittain - only for toasts. Still the price of a decent bread in Poland is less than a half of decent British bread (ok English - never been much outside London.

Why do you keep on sucking Muskovite's toes? Muskovite patriarchate began its existance from Kievan patriarchate by splitting off in 1448. Do you think that at Brest in 1596 they were trying to eradicate Muskovite patriarchate? It was weak and somewhere far far away from RP. It was Kievan patriarchate they were after.


It lost many people I wouldn't argue, but RP lost its army in Ukrainian fields and somehow managed to survive for one more century. Russian dicks on the east front were the problem as well. I don't argue about moving Polish into our lands didn't exist and of course eventually led to more conflicts: religious, lingual, economical etc. Good point though.


I don't live in places "what used to be", I live in Ukraine. I hope the same about you that you don't live in a place that used to be.


Basically I wanted to say that you can't start your history with 1848 no matter who you are. I don't care how people used to call themselves 200 years ago. For me Cossacks and peasants and Ruthenian nobility are Ukrainians, for Germans - people of that time will be Germans and so on. Germany and Italy didn't exist as such in 18th century, but whoever lived there at that time are considered Germans and Italians nowadays.

The reason I asked because there is difference between western and eastern parts of the present Ukraine state but you know nothing about it do you as you are living in Canada, right?


So you mean to said that you can start claiming to have connections with someone you may or may not have something in common? Just because you say so - fine but dont expect everyone to get along with this idea.

As for Germans and Italians it all started with one country taking over others countrys which they belived to be one nation according to 18/19th century ideas.

Germany became one state in 1871, Italy in 1867 but idea behind it was around since early 1812- 48.
As for names of those countrys there were around since middle ages contrary to the name - Ukraine.
So idea of ukrainian as a nations is modern, not determined before 1848 and there was two separate currents with different agendas, purposes and religions.
Wishfull thinking is not enough for you to be taken seriously a bit of knowlege would be welcome.

The Obvious troll is obvious.
None the less, if the thread starter's assertions are correct then why have so many Poles left Poland over the years? and why did so many, oddly enough, leave for Britain? Why not stay home where everyone is so much better at everything than everyone else?

But here I am feeding the obvious troll, aren't i?

W


As many stated here this thread is nonsense, as many people belive to be superior to some or other - British as well!
So what?
Your assertions are not use because British where in the past and are at the moment leaving Britain for Australia, USA, Canada and New Zealand.Why do you think there is so many english speaking countrys?

No, you obviously belive yourself to be superior, fine, hope you wont brust from all this superiority you hold inside.

Name Ukraine is used already in the Primary Chronicle of 1187 mentioning the death of knyazya Volodymyra z Pereyaslawa. I don't know what is considered the Middle Ages in Poland, but it is accepted that this period comprises 5th-16th centuries.

So, Ironside, a bit of knowledge would be indeed very welcome ;)


Ukrainians are Ukrainians and I don't divide them in east and west. And as well I don't see that big of a difference that will be able to make difference to my thoughts on this forum. Moreover, I don't see the relevance of your question. I don't ask you whether you are from Bialystok or Wroclaw, right?


So according to you Germans and Italians started to exist in 19th century?



Could you explain the difference here, please?! Agendas? So Germany as a political idea began its existance in 1812 and Ukraine in 1848, so what is your point? Nations existed before states were formed. According to you Bach was French then and Mazepa was Swiss. Cool. And Copernicus?

any links?


Could you answer my question? Are you hiding something?


thats right , as a modern nations - states.


My point is very easy to understand that before 1848 there wasnt any ukrainian nation at all.
No always nations existed before states were formed sometimes there were state before nations.
Bach was saxon from Saxony.
Mazepa? Jan Kolodynski? according to the times he lived he was a Pole.
I can acknowledge that he was Ruthenian but he wasnt ukrainian.
Copernicus was subject of Polish King therefore he was polish.

it isn't that bad actually

btw if you keep bread in plastic bag and out of light (in a cupboard or some type of bread container) it does not dry fast - it won't last for ever of course

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

Why does it say that he was a German composer and not Saxon, hm?


You can acknowledge whatever you want and say it to your kids and friends.


I don't argue about Copernicus, though I don't give him a credit of being Polish by him being subject of some dude somewhere in the south.

You have no idea what a nation is. Nation is a body of people who share a common history, culture or ethnic origin who typically inhabit a certain territory.

This is why you have and will have problems in the future (and I am not talking about you personally). You will or maybe not understand it in time. You have no respect to basic truths and you fight with a mill like Don Quichot.

Because today Saxony is part of Germany - simple.
Someone from Burgundy nowdays is considered French but in the past he was Burgundian.


Well, I take it back then, he was a Pole.


Oh, I know theory better then you but because it is theory I dont buy it.

As for "ukraine" is only one word in 1187 and is no sufficient to prove anything.
More likely it inffered from word u kraja - at the edge in the 16th century.

So people who lived on present territories of Ukraine were Ukrainians. You just made my point :)


Haha. Take him - he's yours! Likewise Chmelnickiy in my dialogue with Sokrates. He wanted so much Bogdan for Poland that I gave it to him and he became happy. Take Schewczenko, Franko, Kotlyarewkogo, Skovorodu... - go ahead - they are yours! Haha.


Like Poland meant "polia" - fields and doesn't prove anything. How many "words" was Poland in the 12th century? I don't prove anything to you. I live and love my country and don't need to prove anything. If I was on the field before you like my anscestors 400 years ago I would do the same - moon my ass to your phalanges and laugh it off. You are like people who surrounded Copernicus in 15th century and couldn't understand the solar system - you need 200 years to realize what is really going on. Arrogance and blind stubborness are some bad characters.

It means that you cannot bulid your case on some random word - single one.
It could be many things unlike Poland in 12th century because existence of the such politcal entity is a proven fact.
You dont want to prove anything because you know Im right as to the orgin of the ukrainian name and logic also support my view.

Temper, arrogance and blind stubborness are in your character and I dont hold it against you.
Your ancestors 400 years ago could be Poles for all you know.

As for mooning your ass in front of the enemy is new national tactic or what?good luck!

Its very good that you love your country and I have never said anything against Ukraine or ukrainian nation.
Im only trying to show you that many "facts" thats you belive in are myths.