The most spectacular errors in Polish politics.

Ah yes, you're right. But wait! How about YOU look at the 1945 elections! It seems that Poland didn't have a legal government up until 1989, therefore your statements about the 'Polish' Government are still invalid.


Yes, it was.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_the_NKVD_Camp_in_Rembertów

You'd be right, if I had described the post 1945 government as democratic. I described it as "official", as in 'recognised by the world as the government of Poland'.

The Rembertów attack was 21 May 1945. The AK was disbanded on 19 January 1945. (polishresistance-ak.org/2%20Article.htm) I look forward to your explanation of how an organisation which had ceased to exist more than five months earlier managed to attack an NKVD camp.

So you mean that if Stalin made a government composed of a bunch of hobos or mental patients and the world recognized it and then that government 'decided' that Stalin has the right to exterminate every damn last Pole on Earth that would be perfectly fine, fair and legal?

Or could this be that this applies only to the governments in conflicts that Great Britain is not involved with?
You, who claim that General Government was an illegal state whose law was unacceptable.

Shouldn't that be "official", as in 'a puppet state of the Soviet Union'? Puppet State

Did I say any of that? No.
Can you argue with anything I actually say? No.
Do you just make **** up, claim I said it and argue with that instead? Yes.
Are you utterly pathetic? Yes.


Could you perhaps quote the post in which I said that? I am entirely sure that you can not. Apart from anything else, I wouldn't make sure a basic error as saying that the General Government area was a state.

By the way, well done for completely ignoring my request for your explanation of how an organisation which had ceased to exist more than five months earlier managed to attack an NKVD camp. I guess you'll deal with this particular one of your lies as you do with all of your lies: pretend it you never said it.


Yes, that would do it. The "official government of the puppet Soviet state known as Poland" would do it. Although at the particular point in time that we are discussing (i.e. early June 1946) it was not obvious that the state was a Soviet puppet: former Prime Minister of the Polish government-in-exile, Stanisław Mikołajczyk, was Deputy Prime Minister of the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity until the 1947 elections.

As a matter of fact I can. I was refering to our conversation in another thread concerning legality of homeless people buying houses whose owners are assumed dead. You said that transactions done in accordance with the law of General Government are illegal, because General Government did things that are morally questionable.

I suppose in your usual fashion you will now try to convince me that you meant something completely different even though we had a long conversation about the subject during which you did not suggest a different meaning of your words. However I notice that you do that a lot whenever someone quotes you or points out a flaw in your statements or double morality, after which you call them a liar without explaining which part of the statement is a deliberate untruth and then try to wriggle out of the subject by demanding a counterargument to every single thing you ever posted in the thread, even though you yourself don't do the same for arguments of other people.


How about YOU explain it to ME? How did an organisation which didn't exist manage to attack an NKVD camp? Maybe because they never really cease to exist?

Go ahead then. You'll find the search button at the top left of this page. I look forward to you quoting the post in which I say that "the General Government was an illegal state whose law was unacceptable". Either that or you admitting that you are lying yet again.


The explanation is very very simple: the AK did not attack that camp. They can not have done because they had disbanded. The attack was actually carried out by Delegatura Sił Zbrojnych na Kraj ("Armed Forces Delegation for Homeland") which was a sucessor organisation to NIE which was a structure of the AK which outlived the AK (it was disbanded on 7 May). But why let facts get in the way of your posts? Much easier for you to just lie, you do lie so very well after all!

And pray tell me where did I say that it was your exact quote?





I look forward to you convincing me that you didn't mean by this that law of the General Government was unacceptable and things it did were illegal. You do lie so very well after all!


If it was a succesor and a structure of AK, then it makes no difference. AK soldiers were tracked down, arrested and sent off to Siberia years after the war so apparently they WERE considered enemies and danger to the Soviets.

You said this: "You, who claim that General Government was an illegal state whose law was unacceptable." I asked if you could quote the post in which I said that. You replied "As a matter of fact I can." My challenge to you to quote any post in which I called the General Government any kind of state still stands. You've said you can do it, so do it.

Although as you have quoted the particular post which we are both refering to and that post clearly does not contain me saying anything about what kind of state the General Government was, we're just going to have to conclude that you have been caught lying yet again.


The simple fact: Delegatura Sił Zbrojnych na Kraj was not an AK structure. You are lying when you say that it is. How shocking to find you lying! Delegatura Sił Zbrojnych na Kraj can not have been a structure of the AK because they did not exist at the same time. I know that you want them to but the simple fact is that they did not. But do feel most welcome to carry on lying about it.

Harry you are not disappointing you are like a dog that after you feed it still bites you, Polish gov. paid for their supply from allies ( the dogs ) they help defend you Harry and you need to kiss my Polish behind as Poles paid with their lives and gold in Canada to help defend so called allies.

People like you Harry are responsible what is wrong with the world today, just go do yourself you miserable lying creature.

wikipedia
"Prior to the invasion of Poland in 1939, all the gold reserves were evacuated from Poland to Paris, then to London and on to Canada. The Bank continued to function in exile, as the central bank of the Polish Government in Exile, and financed most of the Polish armed forces. In 1946 the remaining prewar gold reserves were returned to Poland's new communist authorities, while the Bank of Poland itself was closed down and finally in 1952 absorbed by the newly-created National Bank of Poland."

Yet another lie!
You exact words were "I look forward to you quoting the post in which I say that "the General Government was an illegal state whose law was unacceptable"'

I pointed out to you that YOU DID INDEED say that the law of the general Government was unacceptable and implied that it's actions as well as actions in accordance to it's law were illegal.

oh Harry, isn't it ironic how you call people liars and in the next line clearly, unashamedly lie yourself? But then again, what should I expect from the Moral Guardian?


You're the one who said that Delegatura was a succesor to the structure of AK. Your words, not mine.

Moreover, your original question WAS NOT ABOUT AK AT ALL. It was:


And the link provided by me proved that 'we' as in 'Poles' WERE bothered to fight the Soviets. No matter how hard you try to pick at the wording and little details won't change that one fact.

Congratulations. Now would you please be so kind as to quote any post in which I called the General Government any kind of state. You have repeatedly said you can do it: so do it. Or admit that you are lying.


Oh sweetie, isn't it pathetic that you lie about what I said and then lie about what you said all in the same post? I made no comment about General Government being any kind of state but you are still insisting that I did and that you've proved I did. It really is utterly pathetic.


No, those are not my words. Please try to write a sentence which is not a lie. I said that Delegatura was the succesor to a structure of the AK. See any difference?


Remind me: did more Poles fight alongside the Soviets or against the Soviets?


As said before, please supply details of those payments.


And people like you who do nothing apart from lying about history to create bad feeling today are mindless scum who deserve the sad bitter pathetic lives they have.

So basically nothing MORE than the blasted parade. Another of your manipulations.


That was very decent of British people although you'd do that for any group of political refuges so why are you portraying this as some selfless act on their part? If only Mr. Churchill thought about that potential problem before he participated in selling us to Soviets. And another thing: were those Poles living in those camps for the rest of their lives sponging the system or only until they were able to support themselves?


Oh, the audacity of those Poles! They want to work for a living and not from handouts!!! I understand fully that you are livid.


I'm glad that you mention this. Do you have any doubts were those money went to? I can tell you were they didn't go to: Polish government's coffers.


But I can see thing or two. As well as anybody with ounce of decency.

And since when we blame Brits for not fighting Soviets again?

Priceless.

;)

No, I don't, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject I was talking about. Instead of providing counterarguments to the points I made you argue over words like 'a' or 'the' apparently hoping that if you continue doing this for long enough I will forget about the original subject. That's the most sad, pathetic thing I've ever seen.

1) You didn't call General Government a state. You did however say that it's laws were unacceptable, since it did things that are morally questionable. Polish People's Republic also did things that are morally questionable, not to mention the communist government was imposed against the will of most Poles, therefore making it's laws and decisions unacceptable, including parades, border changes and reparations.

2) Polish government in exile continued to exist up until the end of communism in Poland. After that it symbolically gave it's 'power' to the Polish government of 1989 symbolically making it a successor government to the Polish G-i-E. The communist government imposed on Poland by dishonest, illegal means was the one which agreed for a parade in Moscow, not the Polish governemnt-in-exile. Therefore, your argument that 'Poland' wanted it and agreed on it is false.

3) The elections of the communist government had to be faked, so apparently more Poles were against them.

At the National Archives in London there is at least one file that supports the fact that not only was Poland invited but also other Allies such as China, USA, USSR et al.

Given that official British government staff cars were laid on for the Officers of these Allied forces and the Dominions one wonders why if no invitations were sent out?

Here is one of the documents I photographed last week:

Victory Parade 1946 Welfare File
Victory Parade File : Provison of staff cars
Victory Parade File: Provision of staff cars for Poland

It has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread (?) that Poland paid entirely for its own war material etc from Polish gold. This is erroneous, as Sikorski received approx. US$120,000,000 (a vast sum given the time period) from the US for war aims. This was NOT a repayable loan. The British government also wrote-off a substantial part of war loans it made to Poland, but did demand payment for a proportion of the outstanding loans. Again I have copies of these FO documents.

As an aside I also have the files related to the RAF leaflet drops over Germany at the outbreak of war, along with copies of the leaflets and translations. Interestingly the decision to drop leaflets over Germany at the outbreak of war was taken around April 1939, and some 14 million propaganda leaflets were printed in German and stored in readiness.

Nothing more? What about the hundreds of resettlement camps for Poles? What about the Polish Resettlement Act which guaranteed equal access to jobs, housing health care and education and citizenship? What about the Polish Resettlement Corps providing training and assistance with integration into life in Britain (and was so well respected by some Poles that the initials for its Polish name, P.K.P.R., were quickly twisted to “Poki Krol Placi Regularnie” “While the King Pays Regularly”)? What about Operation Polejump which in 1947 was organised to bring some 34,000 dependants of Polish Armed Forces personal to Britain from all round the world. To you all of this is nothing? Or does it just not fit into your view of Poles as poor victims who were only betrayed by the British? Or do you just have some other reason for lying yet again?


Please name the hundred of camps, resettlement corps and resettlement acts which were for other groups of political refuges. And while you’re at it, please name all the group of political refuges which Poland has organised hundred of camps, a resettlement corps and resettlement act for. Oh, sorry, you can’t: at the same time that Britain was welcoming Poles, Poles were throwing out Ukrainians who had the misfortune to live in what was deemed Polish soil.


A sale? And what was the purchase price which the Soviets paid to Britain? Of course I could ask you what Britain was supposed to do in 1945 to prevent the USSR from occupying Poland but I’m sure that you will treat that question in exactly the same way as my request for you to provide numbers to support your laughable lie that “ most of Polish ex-soldiers (lower ranks) were send to Canada where they had to work basically as slaves on farms for two years”.


And what did they receive until they were able to support themselves? According to you “basically nothing MORE than the blasted parade”.


If all they wanted was to work, there was plenty to be getting on with in their mother country. They could have gone back to their own homes; if their homes had been destroyed, there were many homes which belonged to Jews or Germans who had decided they didn’t need them any more. Those tens of thousands of Poles wanted a better life than they would have in Poland and they expected the British taxpayer to give it to them.


That would be between your government and that of Russia. The German government paid the reparations in precisely the manner which the Polish government ordered them to. But I’m sure you can find someway of blaming the British for all this, you just have to lie really really hard.


Since when? How about the part in your post where you said “If only Mr. Churchill thought about that potential problem before he participated in selling us to Soviets”? You lie so much that you can’t even remember what lies you told earlier in a single post!


Actually it has a lot to do with what you were talking about but I have neither the time nor the inclination to give you the grammar lesson you so desperately need.


So you mean that you lie about what I say and then you say it is pathetic when I point out that you are lying about what I said. OK. The fact still remains that the AK did not attack that camp and that more Poles fought with the Soviets than against them.


You want to say that when you repeatedly said that I had called it that and you could quote me saying that, you were in fact lying? Nice of you to finally admit it. Pity it took so long for you to do so.


Well, those documents are clearly fakes put into the files as part of the perfidious Anglo-Communist-Jewish plot to discredit Poland. The same shadowy cabal which sold Poland to the Russians and which is responsible for ensuring that the Kielce pogrom took place!


More fakes I tell you! This is the work of the same people who dressed Germans in Polish army uniforms and used those men to claim that Poland invaded Czechoslovakia twice last century!

Nothing because the Anglo-Polish agreement of 1939 was still extant in 1945; in this agreement both Poland and Britian agreed that Britain would not offer support or aid to Poland in the event of agression by USSR or anyone else in fact apart from Germany—this is fact. These fake Anglo-Polish agreement documents still exist in National Archives.


It has been done before... aftreall the documents Stalin purportedly signed to order the Katyn executions are all fakes because the Germans executed the Polish officers :-))

That's not quite true. Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland signed in London, on August 25, 1939 speaks of "European Power"; so if Luxembourg had decided to give Poland a good kicking, the British would have been straight in!

I have found it the most disgusting statement from all your posts here!!!!!!!
These veterans had no homes in Poland because what used to be their homes was now part of Soviet Union.
And those who had family and homes to come back to were more often then not imprisoned and prosecuted by the alleged Polish State.


Twice ? Would you care to explain yourself as Soviet Poland was not independent state at all - and you know it.


Would you care to provide same statistic or documents to prove your otherwise baseless claim ?


Who is responsible for that Harry?
You don't have to look for some cabal, direct responsibility lays on NKVD.
Poles and Ukrainians ? What do you know Harry ?
Once again stop claim that Soviet puppet state was Polish !
Moscow was the real capital !

This memorandum related to the secret protocols attached to the Anglo-Polish Agreement clearly shows that the agreement, confirmed as understood by both parties, was only intended to apply to aggression from Germany. The highlighting is mine of course ;-)

Yes, that is precisely why Britain gave them shelter, homes, jobs and education. But now Poles think it better to lie about all of that and make wild claims like "Most of the lower ranks were shipped to Canada and forced to work as slave labour for two years". Either that or bang on and on and on and on about the bloody parade which they were invited to.


So you agree that Poland invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938. That’s something at least.
Romania was also under Soviet control in the 1960s. Did Romanian troops take part in the 1968 invasion? No, they did not.


Well, there were 200,000 Poles in the Ludowe Wojsko Polskie. You want to give me some data as to the number Poles who fought against the Soviets?


As always nothing is ever the fault of Poles. How predictable.


I know that Poles used a Nazi death camp to lock Ukrainians in before they shipped them off. A particular high point in Polish history. Although Ukrainians often feature in the high points of Polish history: for example the 1921 backstab of your Ukrainian allies.


Perhaps it was. But the simple fact is that communism couldn’t have survived 44 days in Poland, let alone 44 years, if there hadn’t been such an ample supply of Poles ready to collaborate.


What is it with you?! Why do you keep posting facts? Everybody knows that Britain had a commitment to protect Poland from the USSR and that the Brits sold Poland to the commies!

Would you include into this number those Poles in the AK who collaborated with the Ukranian Insurectionst Army (UPA) in Lubaczew thus preventing the ethnic cleansing of Ukranians in the local area to the the Soviet Union?

Of course. War makes for strange bedfellows, just look at the AK units which accepted arms from the Nazis.

"Breadgance"

I agree, big deal Czechoslovakia did not fight with Germany and number of soldiers from that country fled to Poland. They did not consider Poland enemy.


And?
There could be number of reasons for it.
Anyway say what you must but you cannot claim that Soviet Poland had been independent state.


They were fighting against Germany and for most of them it was a only chance to get out from Soviet Union.
The number of Poles involved with direct fight against Soviets in my estimation is no less then 100 000 minimum.


Sure, It is always Poles fault, How predicable Harry!
IF I have a reason to believe that Poles had something to do with that I would say so!
I would add some criminal Polish elements or otherwise if there would be any indication of it did it...........I would condemned it !
But I would have no apologize, what do fuckk Jews ever do for Poles to claim wrongdoings on our part, for every wrongdoing on the Polish side there is twice as much wrongdoings on the Jewish side.

So as long as you don't have a prove that it was a Polish deed, stop bringing it up( and don't quote Soviet court materials or Soviet witnesses - they are worthless).


How it was backstabbing ?


Soviet Polish Army was carrying out plans directed by Stalin!
If it would had been REAL Polish army I would have said - those bastards well deserved it!


Well, considering that Soviets had Red Army stationed on the Polish (PRL-soviet)territory it does not surprises me that during the years of the occupation number of collaborators were growing.

Well, if not for those traitors and opportunists and criminal scumbags in one , Poland would be a different country and in many ways better.
As for 44 days -I will send to your place 4 guys with baseball bats, don't call for help(you would be then in Poles situation so to speak) and I wonder how long you will last - do you want to give it try?

If not stop posting nonsense !

At least I managed to learn basic English in last 15 years without taking any courses. You, on the other hand, for the same 15 years living in Poland can't say word of Polish. But I understand that you are desperate in this point so anything goes. What a classy guy you are!!!


You can't discuss like civilized person, can you? You have to employ dirty tactic. Why you didn't mention them in your previous post? Oh, I know why: so you can say now



I love how you try to broaden the topic with unrelated facts. Nice try but again unsuccessful.


Yeah, play an ignorant now.


Sure; Siberia has such a lovely climate and didn't kill anybody yet.


That was a low blow, even by your low moral standards. But I'm not really that surprised.


My point stands though: we got no help from anyone to rebuild the country after the war devastation.


Either we are talking about two different wars or you are insane.


How nice of you to judge Poles sitting today safely in front of the computer. So you came to Poland after communism fell already; how brave you are! Didn't want to try that supreme living conditions before? Or to show us by example how to fight those commies? I'm sure that Amnesty International would have been more useful then than now. But again: we are talking about YOU.


Oh, I didn't miss your lack of response here. I like clear situations.

I was going to reply point by point to your post but then I read this and realised there's no point: you're just scum.

However, I do love how Polish your threat is. Has to be at least four on one, can't be one against one. And it can't be you, you're too much of a coward, got to be other people. And they've got to be armed too, don't want to be taking any chances now.

Anyway, my name is Harry, I've posted here many times where I drink so it should be very easy to find me. I'd look forward to meeting you but I somehow think that your threat is just as valid as all the other ones that various scumball Poles make.


How nice of you to start as you mean to go on: with a lie, a misquote and an evasion! You lie about my knowledge of Polish (it’s not fluent but I get by). You misquote me (the full quote is “Although given that you are stupid enough to think that you’d be able to get away with claiming that “most of Polish ex-soldiers (lower ranks) [who remained in the UK after WWII] were send [sic] to Canada where they had to work basically as slaves on farms for two years”, you clearly are that dense.” I wasn’t saying that you’re stupid because you made a typing error, I am saying that you’re stupid because you expected us to believe such an obvious and outrageous lie). And you evade the repeated request to provide either any kind of numbers to support your outrageous lie about most Poles being shipped to Canada to be slaves or an apology.


I do love how somebody who tells such outrageous and offensive lies as you do tries to criticise somebody for not ‘discussing like civilized a person’.

Why didn’t I mention the hundreds of camps, the Resettlement Act and the Polish Resettlement Corps before? Well, I did mention them before (post #206 and post #216 of this thread). Oops, you just got caught lying yet again! That’s three times in this post already!


I love how you try to distract attention from the fact that yet again you have been caught lying. You said that the British would “do that for any group of political refuges so why are you portraying this as some selfless act on their part”. I ask you to name the hundred of camps, resettlement corps and resettlement acts which were for other groups of political refuges. You completely ignore that you’ve been caught lying and instead focus on the fact that Poles in Britain were treated far better than Poland has ever treated any group of immigrants or ethnic minority.


No, really, please name the purchase price which the Soviets paid to Britain. If Britain really did sell Poland to the Soviets, what was the price paid? You (and many other Poles) love to talk of how Poland was sold to the Soviets, so tell us what the price was. Either that or just admit that you’ve been caught lying again. How many times is that in this single post now? Five?


Oh look! The all-time classic Polish debating technique: can’t attack the facts so instead attack the person posting them. Nice to see that the years you’ve spent outside Poland haven’t lessened your Polish debating skills.


And of course for that you blame the British. How very predictable.


We do appear to be talking about two different wars. You’re talking about a war in which Britain sold Poland to the Soviets. I’m talking about the second world war.


Actually I didn’t move to Poland before communism fell because I was still as school then. However, as soon as I had skills which could benefit Poland (and as soon as the Polish government invited me to come and share those skills), I did come to Poland. But let’s talk about you: when did you abandon Poland? If you love Poland so much, why don’t you come back here and work to make the place better? Could it be that while you’re happy to talk about how wonderful Poland is, there’s no way in hell you’d live here?


So is there any chance of you ever providing any links to any numbers? I like clear situations too, and right now it is crystal clear that you have no numbers at all to back your foul lie that “most of Polish ex-soldiers (lower ranks) [who remained in the UK after WWII] were send to Canada where they had to work basically as slaves on farms for two years”.

As an aside, I’m not being paid to do research. My last book about Poland was a commission job but the one I’m doing now isn’t.


I'm off to the shops now but I'll be watching the Man U game in Bradley's later today. Do pop in.

creature creature Tusk

you are so deluded ;)