Searching for keys in Polish-Russian relations

I am not Russian but it is exactly why Ukraine isn't worth efforts. Let them deal with their problems alone. :) Polish public opinion was so naive. It is really good that it is changing. I am waiting for more of your posts.

No, they didn't. It's a blatant lie.

In 1943 OUN started to murder Polish civilians in Volyn. The reaction of AK was very
mild, home army in Volyn was formed into 27th AK division (it was done mainly to
stop the Polish self-defence formations from blindless, bloody revenge on Ukrainian
civilians). "Banderowcy" murdered according to different sources 40-70 thousand
Polish civilians, Home Army inflicted the losses of about 2-3 thousand to the Ukrainian
side, but most of those losses were soldiers fallen in fight or murderers of civilians
convicted to death.

Then 60,000 Polish is a blatant lie. AK killed according to different sources between 20,000 and 30,000 innocent Ukrainian women, kids and men. And you have parades with AK veterans. What do you think about it?

Look, I won't be dragged into that kind of number-of-victims juggling and different
sources discussion, Nathan. You asked a question and I answered it - AK's reaction
to Ukrainian bestiality was very mild, you could even say humanitarian (but I guess
it's not the right word in this context).

As for Polish-Ukrainian relations, I think we should leave all that for historians
and move on for the better future of our children and grandchildren.

There is no sense to justify crimes of UPA bands. Nathan, you can write all you want about supposed Polish or Russian propaganda. However we all know well that the most fervent antiUPA sentiment is present among Ukrainians from the east and south. We don't need to look what Polish or Russian historians have to say, native Ukrainians provide similar picture. I know even about historian from western Ukraine who share their opinion, his name is Victor Polischuk. UPA liberated these lands from all nonUkrainian civilians and those Ukrainians who tried to help their neighbours.

What sources?
And why are you talking about innocent ukrainian women, kids? Maybe to balance your deeds!
I'm not saying that in those numbers that were killed did not happen that some were innocent or there was not women or some children among them but all of it is about true picture of the events.

The criminal organization (SS Galitzen) armed by the Germans in the 1943 stared ethnic cleansing mostly in the Wolyn area and murdered in the most barbaric way from 60 000 to 100 000 defenses people with the assistance of local Ukrainians.

Then Polish population started to build military organization to defend themselves it was called the Battalions of Self Defense which in the year or so were taken over by the AK.

If someone the all family were murdered in the horrible way, no wonder sometimes people sanity snapped and hence he/they may kill some innocent women and children.

Maybe it was the family of someone who was involved in the Ukrainian UPA because people at the area knew each other by the names, faces, sometimes they were attending schools together, so I bet they were not killing blindly.

All those random murders were not many and was done by the individuals and I condemn them, yet You cannot compare it to the organized massacres done by the Ukrainian nationalist.

Generally AK and Poles weren't murdering people, most likely civilians you talk about were perpetrators fund guilty by the Polish underground state jury!
That the way things are done in the civilized nation!
As long as you don't admitcriminal and unjustified acts of your heroes, there cannot be any real understanding between both nations.
Regardless border question and current politics.

On a lighter note...

and one from me: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_German - Anna German, polish singer born in soviet union, half-dutch, half-german and singing about a greek wine. key in euro-relations?

????????

A large number of Polish colonists were encouraged by the Polish government to resettle in Volhynia. This number was estimated at 300,000 for both Galicia and Volhynia by UKrainian sources and less than 100,000 by Polish sources (see osadnik) [11] Although the majority of the local population was Ukrainian, virtually all government official positions were assigned to Poles.

In 1938-1939 a number of Ukrainian libraries and reading rooms were burned by Polish mobs of misguided patriotic youth who often went unpunished by the Polish police forces[7]. Polish youths were organized into armed, local paramilitary strzelcy groups and terrorized the Ukrainian population under the pretext of maintaining law and order. Bloodshed however was rare.

But there was blood. Note how many Poles moved to Volhynia and say that 100,000 people, who are claimed to be murdered by you, are correct. Many of the Ukrainians snapped. I know stories of Polish drowning a son on eyes of his father as well as killing a young girl in the village by which I was born. But for you it is a lie. And you keep saying that it was only 2-3 thousand, while claiming unexisting amounts of people yourself. By the beginning of WWll your ancestors were in the livers of many. They burned and closed schools, churches, read above. The same happened in Lithuania, Bilorus'. You say some were punished by underground court - come on, kid, wake up and stop playing with words. Listen I am not sure how many people I would kill if one of my family lost one person. So amount of blood shouldn't be measured here. You claim retribution? Are you insane?

Read on Jaworzno concentration camp which continued to exist and function till 1956! where not only Ukrainians but Jews, Bialorusy died. Read about operation "Wisla" and 200,000 people and what was done to them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

Horrible people are everywhere. But to accuse the whole organization for atrocities is baseless. If you do it, do it to the AK and we will see then, ok? UPA fought Germans and Soviet Army as well as AK. In eastern oblasts' of Ukraine which were more under Russian influence UPA is hated as well. Of course, they fought Soviet Army. What is more tragic is the fact that many Ukrainians were in the Soviet Army and thus fought against each other.

Dear Polish guys. I have part of my family who are Polish as well. And I have nothing but respect to you even though sometimes I get angry. But, please, listen to me. What we are fighting for is senseless. And as Torq said - let's move on. Don't build hatred in your kids. I will never do that either. Don't try to force someone to except your truth and glorify whomever they want. Ukraine is not building demands on you glorifying AK. And now please don't say AK was humanistic and strzelcy were just kids having fun and never killing anyone. Just let's stop whining, remember all our dead with peace and let's make possible it will never happen again on either side.

Nathan :) are you looking for key in Polish - Russian relations. :))))

I am not going to comment his unsupported claims.

I agree that it is bad idea to open company in Ukraine all in all Ukraininias will steal investment because it is "Ukrainian Land" on which Ukrainan SS Galitzien is hero and everything build on this land should belong to Ukrainian people ... lets leave them alone. :)

I remember destroyed by Ukrainians graveyard of Polish soldiers who fought for Polishness of this city just after regaining of independence in 1918. Graves of French or American volountires who fought on Polish side were devastated by Ukrainians as well...



One thing is sure in contacts with Moscow Poland shouldn't think about Ukraine...

Modern Ukraine and her heroes.

Dont be a f*ckwit,the guy in the interveiw complaining about it is Ukrainian......most of the people interviewed on the subject were Ukrainian and were very p*ssed off at seeing the posters too.......stop stirring conflict you leach,does daddy own an arms factory or something?

[quote=Sasha][/quote]
For Russian friend :

youtube.com/watch?v=vz1Hx5Ne6aU

Graveyard of Polish soldiers..... :):):) You don`t even know that it is commonly called the Cemetery of the Lvov Eaglets (official name the Cemetery of Defenders of Lvov) and is located in the giant £yczakowski cemetery. :):):)

And you don`t even know that the cemetery was officially opened in 2005 after a thorough renovation....


Oh, I see, you advocate Polish Russian relations, at the cost of Polish Ukrainian conflicts???
Very clever. :):)):)

Come on, forget Ukraine - it will be independent despite your attempts to subjugate it! :)
Stop silly provocations and be a nice Russian whom we would like to be friends with. :):

few days ago Garri Kasparov, famous chess player and political activist was a guest in Polish Radio 3. he was talking about a current situation in russia. here you can find podcast from this interview ( in polish and russian ):

I love Kasparov's commentaries. Thanks for that, McCoy. Weinstein was precocious and is an admirable political spokesman :)

i don`t want to tell you. Its secret

your welcome.

It's very easy to translate by the sounds of it. I really hear the similarities and contrasts of Slavic languages. I don't know how aware Kasparov is of the political realities in Poland nowadays but he's certainly cluey about Putin and the current Russian regime.

I wonder what Crow thinks about Kasparov, the Azerbaijani. Russian sounds more Serbo-Croatian than Polish does.

exactly. very similar languages.


Armenian jew

Kasparov has those roots, McCoy, but he is from Baku which is the capital of Azerbaijan. His mother was Armenian and father Jewish so clearly you have a point. He is proud to be an Azerbaijani though.

ok. didnt know


ok

Thanks for the link, McCoy. I'll listen to it later. This should be interesting.

your welcome Alek. yeah it was. i wonder whos idea of russia you prefer - putins or kasparovs.

I really recommend it, Sasha. I can understand a little Russian but only through Polish. You will understand the Russian and it's quite audible. Still, I think you may understand the Polish too.

McCoy, you're a gem.

actualy, from the Serbian perspective both- Polish and Russian sound similar to Serbian in same level. To us, Serbian sound as language that is between Polish and Russian, in the middle. i think that it represent and official position of linguistic science

Just, when i read Polish and Russian, Polish langauge seams little bit closer then Russian

Position of Serbian language on Polish and Russian languages logicaly confirm starting positions in development of all three languages >>> after Ice age was finished Proto Slavs settled on Balkan >>> they moved to the North and North-West, West, East following Danube River on the first place >>> all people that resetled on new locations were in the same level (more or less) connected with primordial Proto-Slavic cultural center on Balkan...

Serbian languages still preserved old logic of ancients. For us (in our epic poetry) Poles are known as Ledjani (People from the Ice, from North). Russians obviously descending from Scythians. SKITATI on Serbian means WONDERING, so > Scythians > Wonderers, Nomads (on Eng.). Also, Celts (on Serbian sound `Selti`) mening `people who wondering`, wonderers`.

realy, in reality Celts were `Wonderers, Nomads` and realy they were in history remembered as branch of Scytians.

Logic of Serbian lingusistics absolutely support historical realty.

I am absolutely sure that Proto-Slavs splited on two branches already before Ice Age was finished. When arrived in Europe (Balkan), i gues (minimum) some 15-20.000 years Proto-Slavs were known as Sarmatians. In old homeland, somwhere on Near-East or Eurasia, Scythians separated from Sarmatians. That`s why for our kind they were called Scythians (Nomads), on Serbian `SKITAČI`.

and realy, agricultural knowladge was invented by Sarmatians. It is they who revealed secret of farming from the west of Europe to the Ind River. Shall i remind you of SVASTIKA and KOLOVRAT?

yes, yes... Russians are of Scythian branch and Poles of Sarmatian. Both of them in same level were connected with Balkan as first Proto Slavic center on European soil.

In general, modern day Serbians are closer to the Poles then to Russians considering that Balkan on the first place was Sarmatian center. On the other side, Celtic component in Serbians makes them Scythians in the same time. Serbians (both- Lusatian and Balkan) are important because they preserved in use first orriginal name of all Slavs- Sarmatian name. As official linguistic science confirmed name of Serbians probably sound and has same meaning as name of Sarmatians.

SARMATIA is key. Poles and Russians should return to Sarmatia

Well... I hope you understand that acceptance of putin's ideas for me is out of question, not to mention that he doesn't really stick to his own words. Right after he spit out his harangue full of quite trustworthy and reasonable ideas about better relationship with Europe and lifting up the economy he pulls country in opposite direction.

As for Kasparov.. he's like a leech on government's body. No government, no kasparov. As simple as that. To clarify I'll tell you that generally lots of people on Russian political scene come up with more or less healthy ideas which being implemented would do us (and most likely our neighbours) good, but few of those politicians have guts to realize them. I have strong doubts about kasparov's personality even though he owns some sober ideas... he's not a charismatic leader. But that doesn't any lessen my will to listen to what he says on Polish radio. If it was Russian one, I'd probably ignore that.

right, thats how it seems to be. but also these like you callem leeches are useful pointing the bad blood running through the systems vains and covered by good fathers of the nation masks.


i believe so. dream of a neverending great russia independent from foreign influence but keeping europe in her fist is an illusion and you cant build a bright future of your country and its citizens on such a mirage. dont you think that from many ages all your rullers tried to be just a new tzars? the absolute rulers.


okey.


cool


why? is it that bad with freedom of speech in r.

This is true!


Probably... but the problem is that how those "tzars" sometimes used their power. I've pondered a lot on that phenomenon and I can say the more I think of it the more complicated this turns out.


Well... if he was given his word, that would be most likely some more or less liberal radio like "Echo Moskvi", not the state-owned channels of my TV-set. :))) So it's not that bad as it's painted. If you want to get info you will get it. My point was solely about he has his word on Polish radio, thus I assume there could be some questions asked by anchor about Polish-Russian relationship and I'd love to see his views on Poland. Besides I wanna check his rhetoric... whether it any altered from what I usually heard on Russian radio from him.

Write about your impressions, if I only knew about this interview at time I would ask him few difficult questions about his own views.