Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / News  % width 75

Searching for keys in Polish-Russian relations


Salomon 2 | 436  
6 May 2009 /  #1
Polish FM Radoslaw Sikorski starts a two day visit to Russia, Tuesday evening.

Polish FM Radoslaw Sikorski starts a two day visit to Russia, Tuesday evening.On Wednesday Poland's head of diplomacy will meet his Russian host Sergei Lavrov.

Deputy FM Andrzej Kremer told reporters in Warsaw that the Moscow visit consists of two important entities: bilateral discussions between the two countries' foreign ministers and a meeting of the committee for Polish-Russian cooperation strategy chaired by the ministers with the participation of deputy ministers representing various departments.

I hope that it will be fruitful mission.
pawian 204 | 21,100  
6 May 2009 /  #2
I am a pessimist. Both sides need this meeting to show they are able to run normal politics and keep relations without historical prejudices.
But Russian leaders will never give up the idea of having Poland in their sphere of influence, and that is what Poles can`t agree to, of course. And the vicious circle of Russian Polish political animosities, ecomomic wars and embargoes, tensions will continue. Simply speaking, neither Russians nor Poles will give up their strategic interests. :):):)

Hey, Solo, during 3 May parade in Krakow I saw a dozen people carrying a banner of Stowarzyszenie Przyjaźni Polsko Rosyjskiej, Słowianie Razem. What do you know about it? :):):)
McCoy 27 | 1,269  
6 May 2009 /  #3
I am a pessimist.

a pessimist is a well informed optimist.

Russian leaders will never give up the idea of having Poland in their sphere of influence

imho they already gave up. Poles always cause only troubles. cant rule them cant killem all. their main goal is to restore the influence in post soviet republics. maybe if we had a natural resouces we would be one of their strategic goals. the only thing they want from us now is to be quiet and dont mess with their policy.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
6 May 2009 /  #4
I hope that it will be fruitful mission.

I doubt it politicians in Poland are hopless lot, there are first with obfuscation and last to do something they are paid for to do it!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 May 2009 /  #5
dont mess with their policy.

Since their policy is for us not to have our own policy i see messing with them as inevitable.

I doubt it politicians in Poland are hopless lot,

Some are, Sikorski is not the guy is actually quite competent and unlike some *hint* Kaczyńscy, is ready to shelve his anti-russian sentiments so we could talk like people.

But Russian leaders will never give up the idea of having Poland in their sphere of influence

Russian leaders will soon have far more to contend with like their failing military and economy, international policy is about to become an arse end of their worries.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
6 May 2009 /  #6
Some are, Sikorski is not the guy is actually quite competent and unlike some *hint* Kaczyńscy, is ready to shelve his anti-russian sentiments so we could talk like people.

You are naive, well it's not a crime.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 May 2009 /  #7
No i'm not, Sikorsky will always be strongly anti-Russian but at least he's sensible about it and not going to wear a "fuk Russia" T-shirt talking with them.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
7 May 2009 /  #8
Do you think that he can do anything even if he is all you think him to be?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
7 May 2009 /  #9
Since their policy is for us not to have our own policy i see messing with them as inevitable

If only our policy would serve us right. Do you see any gains from our involvement in Ukraine?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 May 2009 /  #10
Creating a buffer zone between us and Russia just like Germany made one out of us, democratic strong Ukraine will take up significant Russian attention thats otherwise focused on Poland, we should support democratic changes on Ukraine with every penny we have since we have all the same mutual interests and no colliding ones.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
7 May 2009 /  #11
Yeah? Send them your money not somebody else's .
As for the rest it all look nite in the theory, in practice it looks different.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 May 2009 /  #12
Yeah? Send them your money not somebody else's .

I'm sorry as long as you're a Polish taxpayer the goverment will use your taxes, you can always bail, EU is open for you.

As for the rest it all look nite in the theory, in practice it looks different.

Care to explain? We have everything to gain by having a democratic Ukraine and everything to lose by letting it slip into Russian grip.

Let me be clearer, Ukraine and Poland with enough luck could in the future create a two state union, ALL of our internal and international interests are the same, all of our potential rivals are the same, with Germany we have some common fields with Ukraine all of our interests are common.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
7 May 2009 /  #13
Care to explain? We have everything to gain by having a democratic Ukraine and everything to lose by letting it slip into Russian grip.

Having all that and more would be grand but you cannot achive it with the swipe of your magic stick.
Any amount of money will not work because reality bites, ukrainians must sort out themselfs what they want to be and what their interests are!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
7 May 2009 /  #14
Having all that and more would be grand but you cannot achive it with the swipe of your magic stick.

No but the point is that we can achieve it, Ukraine is and has always been the key to not only Polish safety but Polish power, if we gave them equal say back during the RON period we'd still be a major European power, for the first time in over three centuries we have a chance to rectify that mistake and yet you say "we shouldnt support Ukraine" ?

Any amount of money will not work because reality bites,

Money tend to influence reality pretty good:)

ukrainians must sort out themselfs what they want to be and what their interests are!

True but we should help them as best as we can, we cant just leave them alone in a pool of crap, they're too important for us as a country and nation to do that.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #15
Creating a buffer zone between us and Russia just like Germany made one out of us, democratic strong Ukraine will take up significant Russian attention thats otherwise focused on Poland, we should support democratic changes on Ukraine with every penny we have since we have all the same mutual interests and no colliding ones.

I'm not opposed to independent Ukraine, however I don't perceive democracy over there to be guarantee of sovereignty, neither guarantee of prosperity (look at current situation!). Ukrainian elections are always very close and for example Victor Yushchenko is currently a very unpopular politician.

On other hand if you take a look at Belarus, if we ignore socialistic nature of this regime we have Lukashenko who loves to be the number one. Dictators are highly unwilling to surrender their powers. People who follow eastern politics know very well how Putin dislike Lukashenko. If anything push Lukashenko in arms of Kremlin it was western policy with axed him. While democratic election in this country would likely lead to unification with Russia. Currently we see the EU and even Polish government changing this line and of course it is good move. I strongly oppose demagogy of populist PiS, so many honest but politically illiterate people buy their c..p.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 May 2009 /  #16
however I don't perceive democracy over there to be guarantee of sovereignty

Our democracy which we are in a very good position to install, after Orange Revolution we have significant influence on whats happening there, however since our politicians are incompetent fvcks we do not excersize this influence.

On other hand if you take a look at Belarus, if

Belarus is a good 10-20 years even behind Ukraine, we should focus on what can we realistically get and what we can get is Kiev not Minsk.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #17
Our democracy which we are in a very good position to install, after Orange Revolution we have significant influence on whats happening there

You highly overestimate potential of current Polish state. Even if Polish politicians would be competent they could not solve the problem with even more incompetent Ukrainian politicians.

Anyway, installing democracy from above is a quite poor concept made in the US. How "our democracy" differ from "their democracy" in your opinion?

Belarus is a good 10-20 years even behind Ukraine, we should focus on what can we realistically get and what we can get is Kiev not Minsk.

"We can get", please define.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 May 2009 /  #18
You highly overestimate potential of current Polish state.

No i dont, the potential of the current Polish state is even greater than Germany, the political "elite" is the only major issue here.

Even if Polish politicians would be competent they could not solve the problem with even more incompetent Ukrainian politicians.

There is a very strong pro-Polish group in Western Ukraine, they are the wealthier half, all they need is coordination, start Polish funded media, organize them, support them and we can create a highly competent group pushing for closer ties with Poland and reforming Ukraine at the same time.

In fact we're in a thousand times better position than Russia which needs to coerce and bribe, we have a massive following of willing supporters there, who's voice is incindentally more important than russian sympathizers.

Anyway, installing democracy from above is a quite poor concept made in the US. How "our democracy" differ from "their democracy" in your opinion?

Not installing, we should never resort to russian tactics, puppet goverments are always temporary, we need to support the right movements and thats about it, any democracy thats not a Russian puppet is "our".

Poland at this rate will be all the way up there with the Western states within 20 years, probably sooner, Ukraine will take much much longer, it needs an ally on an international arena, that ally is either Poland or Russia.

"We can get", please define.

Military, political and economical alliance that leaves the door open for a possible union in the future, neither of us will survive as an independent political entity for long and Western states cannot be counted on in long term, their interests either conflict ours or completely lack coomon fields.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
9 May 2009 /  #19
No i dont, the potential of the current Polish state is even greater than Germany, the political "elite" is the only major issue here.

We are talking about current political potential of the III RP. Such potential depends mainly from wealth and even if I have negative opinion about populist tendencies in Germany, still they have advantage. Of course Polish politicians do everything to keep this distance but this is another issue.

There is a very strong pro-Polish group in Western Ukraine, they are the wealthier half, all they need is coordination, start Polish funded media, organize them, support them and we can create a highly competent group pushing for closer ties with Poland and reforming Ukraine at the same time.

Whether they are indeed pro-Polish, this is questionable. Although I oppose involvement of politicians in historical disputes, if you plan the future you should not ignore that Lviv's city council is heavily engaged in glorification of UPA. Why? Apparently because this is something that cost nothing financially while locals perceive such actions positively.

Secondary, this is not true that the western part of Ukraine is wealthier. It is based on agriculture, while the biggest cities are located in the east. I have read some time ago analyse of structure of Ukrainian oligarchic clans, western part was not represented. While current PM Tymoshenko belonged top one of two clans from Dnepropetrovsk.

Also I disagree with such opinion that Polish taxpayers should finance some business investment in Ukraine, this is not something that the state should be involved even in Poland itself. These are mistakes of American foreign policy which lead this state to socialism, aside from specific imperialism of ideology.

we have a massive following of willing supporters there, who's voice is incindentally more important than russian sympathizers.

Do you have any evidence to confirm this relation. Results of every elections doesn't seems to confirm your thesis.

we need to support the right movements and thats about it,

That would be perhaps effective if "our" side have some pretty stable advantage. While currently every each elections may results in different outcomes. Thus Ukrainian foreign policy is unpredictable. If Polish state decide to support one side you can count that their rivals wont be very friendly towards them. This is very similar to situation with new American administration and missile shield.

any democracy thats not a Russian puppet is "our".

I'm afraid if this would be democratic state and majority of Ukrainians would wish Ukraine being Russian puppet, there is very little you can do about it.

Poland at this rate will be all the way up there with the Western states within 20 years, probably sooner, Ukraine will take much much longer, it needs an ally on an international arena, that ally is either Poland or Russia.

Poland doesn't count, it has no influence. If anybody in Ukraine want this state remain independent they must run balanced foreign policy, this is false to say that either the EU or Russia. Both regimes have imperialistic ambitions, they just offer different propaganda duo to cultural differences between targeted societies.

Military, political and economical alliance that leaves the door open for a possible union in the future, neither of us will survive as an independent political entity for long and Western states cannot be counted on in long term, their interests either conflict ours or completely lack coomon fields.

Alliance is always against some third body. So I don't understand how Poland can win anything from economic alliance against Russia. While there is a lot of opportunities to lose... Like I wrote earlier the EU and Poland itself by their recent actions admitted that economic sanctions again Belarus were not effective. The same is with ridiculous American policy towards Cuba.

I also consider your vision of Polish-Ukrainian union to be utopian. Age of Enlightenment created vision of national states and American foreign policy after WWI sanctioned this system. Majority of people are mentally unable to stick to such concept, it will lead to ethnic conflicts sooner or later. First serious problem, first real crisis and you may have destructive home war. Who will be the president, Pole or Ukrainian? I think that behaviour of PO which intentionally tried to hide true German surname of one of their candidates to EP speak everything... PO have no faith in sanity of people, do you have any?
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
10 May 2009 /  #20
There is a very strong pro-Polish group in Western Ukraine, they are the wealthier half

I don't know who exactly you meant here, but if take as is Western and Eastern Ukraine, the last one will be of course wealthier as it has most of industry inherited from the USSR and natural resources.

In fact we're in a thousand times better position than Russia which needs to coerce and bribe, we have a massive following of willing supporters there, who's voice is incindentally more important than russian sympathizers.

In fact everybody gotta do same things. The only reason why you are or if you want the West in general have the better position (which I entirely share) is because you invest more. Money is the only matter, particularly in the western part of Ukraine as it is more poor.

his is not true that the western part of Ukraine is wealthier

Exactly.

The government of Ukraine is pro-selfish therefore the only thing they've ever cared about is their own buttocks. Doesn't really matter what kind of policy they conduct since everything ends up in their pockets. Yanukovich, Jusch, Timoshenko... no difference. Neither for Poland nor for Russia.

As for the topic... I would say that our future rests mostly in our (people's not politicians') hands. We can learn something new about each other's culture, history, we can treat each other as friends, we can stop being narrow-minded or unfair but I don't believe those governments we have ever come to terms with each other.
OP Salomon 2 | 436  
10 May 2009 /  #21
In my opinion Poland as typical central european country should try to be something between two parts of continent. Make advatage form this very hard situation.

Poland with other central european countries should try to be like bridge between this two parts of continent and support each other in this mission. Confronation between east and west make form Poland and other central european states ... front line.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
10 May 2009 /  #22
The government of Ukraine is pro-selfish therefore the only thing they've ever cared about is their own buttocks.

No wonder, cadence is short, so their time preference is very high. This is more than just Ukrainian problem.
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
10 May 2009 /  #23
glorification of UPA

glorification of AK? What's up?
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
11 May 2009 /  #24
What are up to?
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 May 2009 /  #25
So? Of course, UPA for us is a liberating army. How is it difficult to understand? There were murders of Polish civilians by some, but in general UPA fought Russian, German and Polish oppressors. Crazy soldiers are everywhere and horrible things happen during the war. AK murdered 20,000 Ukrainian civilians in 1943-44. Even if it was in so-called retaliation, it is still murder and if you want to judge UPA, judge your Armija Krajowa as well. If you are not willing to do that, then stop pretending on anything. "Rezuny" and other BS, tell your grandma, not me. Look at yourself and what you did in 400 years and then look in my eyes and say that all of them were murderers. Stop whining and grow up. Do you want to praise your "rezuny" - go ahead praise, build memorials and stuff. I don't give a smallest interest in it. But don't tell me who is my hero and who did what for my country. Keep your nose in your plate or French kiss Russians as I see you like so often doing.
OP Salomon 2 | 436  
11 May 2009 /  #26
In my opinion Ukrainians are not mature enought for positive neighbourhood we offered them. I doubt that they are going to met standarts we accept in next decades. It is not racist statement, it is like with ethnic Germans from Kazachstan (who were moved there by Russian communists)

In 1990s used the right for German citizenship and now there is problem with their reassimilation as they stick to customs from Kazachstan, stick with Germans who came back form Kazachstan, don't particpate in German public life ect. It is going to take a lot of time to reasimilate them ...

Ukrainians with their glorification of SS Galizien ... aren't even ideologicaly ready for the "change". In my opinion Poland was to optymistic in contacts with Ukraine.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
11 May 2009 /  #27
UPA

What wrong with you 400 years what are you talking about? It is what your family saying to justfiy their barbaric deeds?
Why don;t you face the true Nathan?

Ukrainians with their glorification of SS Galizien ... aren't even ideologicaly ready for the "change". In my opinion Poland was to optymistic in contacts with Ukraine.

Thats only ukrainians from land which should belong to Poland, some idiots, they even don't share religion with the ukrainians from proper Ukraine!
Nathan 18 | 1,363  
11 May 2009 /  #28
Salomon and Ironside, you are representatives of two neighboring countries - Russia and Poland. Your talking is always filled with hatred and arrogance. You are nasty little boys, who dream of something and **** in their beds. I don't care actually about both of ya. I know some good people from both countries who grew up and are intelligent, move forward and we enjoy each other's company. Listen, I don't care what Poland does to AK, Dmowski, other issues; I don't care what Russia does to Stalin, Lenin and KGB. It is not my business and I am not interested in that. You, on the other hand, constantly whine and tell others what to do about their heroes. Who in the f*** are you? And Salomon, this is the last sentence I want to address to you: you are worthless pathetic russian scum.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
11 May 2009 /  #29
Nat, relax and come up to the mirror firstly. Considering your constant pathetic b!tching about everything that is any related to the adjective "Russian" I wouldn't even recommend you to open a book... right to the doctor, honey, right to the doctor... That's the only thing that should do you good.

Your beforehand description of yours was pretty much accurate. Thank you.
Ironside 51 | 11,291  
11 May 2009 /  #30
hatred

Any arguments or some more of your rants?

It's boring, Nathan!

Archives - 2005-2009 / News / Searching for keys in Polish-Russian relationsArchived