What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

Aha, part Greek, right? Yeah, for sure you can.

Where were the Americans in WWII? It took some time as well, it's just the way of things. Britain and America did a sterling job in WWII. Patience prevailed.

Who knows? They entered principally to protect their interests. i.e, arms and supplies loaned to Great Britain.
But my grandmother was liberated from a labour camp by Americans, so I shall not attack them any further.

Hitler actually included the U.S in his list of countries which would eventually ally themselves with Germany. He admired the anglo-saxon class which 'ruled' the U.S.

This Polish American likes to harp on about snuffing out genocide, I applaud that. But, it was Clinton who authorised the bombing and stood by when the Serbs were mutilated. Rwanda, wow, what a success story that was :(

What about Auschwitz and other concentration camps? Why didn't the allies bomb the railroad tracks leading to these camps, late in the war, when they already knew of the horrible atrocities going on there? To this day, it still puzzles me as to why... by that time in the war, they were pushing into Germany, and the distance would not have been very drastic to cover by a few bombers.

I agree, Filios. It has (had to then) to be stopped by all means available. The killing of innocent Jews was unacceptable. I focus on the fact that they were innocent, others focus on the fact that they were Jews.

Politics overrides humanity :(

Innocent Poles, innocent Roma... list goes on.

It was all grins and smiles when the Genocide Convention was formed. Have you ever been to Auschwitz, Filios? I guess you had a school excursion there. There were many striking features there but the one that really caught my eye was the one that said sth to the effect of, 'Let history remind us of the sinister deeds that took place here and that we will never let them happen again'. People seemed destined to repeat their mistakes.

Harry the more I read your posts the more convinced I am that you lack comprehension skills. You read the words which seem to pass you by or you seem to draw your own conclusion because you so desperately want to believe your truth. No wonder Britain back then had a likes of Chamberlain or perhaps Chamberlain new exactly how bad of a shape Britain was in and could not act otherwise.

Events in a nutshell.
Beginning of the war, Hitler and Stalin the bosom bodies both taking part in attacking and partitioning Poland. Summer and autumn of 1940 The Battle of Britain, Hitler and Stalin still bosom bodies. Summer 1940 Hitler orders preliminary planning for the land invasion of Britain. July 1940 Hitler orders 13 divisions moved in preparation for first wave of invasion. (Meanwhile the Battle of Britain is not going as well as Hitler thought it would). September 1940 invasion postponed in the belief that Luftwaffe attacks would bring about English surrender. End of September 1940 Hitler orders troops assembled for invasion dispersed. (Of course after the war Field Marshal von Runstedt said that this invasion business was a bluff). During his visit to Berlin in November 1940, Molotov pressed the Nazis to honor their treaty obligation to distance themselves from Finland but Hitler dropped implied suggestions to look towards Asia and not Europe for the expansion of Soviet interests and power. (The fallout between the bosom bodies accrues; Britain can bread easier but does not know it yet. As Hitler himself has said “The whole world took a deep breath”). December 1940 Hitler orders to plan for 1941 invasion of Russia. 1941, The Invasion of Russia by Germany, Britain gains a new ally, Russia.

At this point Britain is still is in no shape to seriously engage Germany so they rely on Russia to keep Hitler at bay. Since Stalin’s requests for the Second Front, kept falling on the deaf ears of his new found Allies, he knew that Churchill and Roosevelt will be more than willing to compensate him with piece of Poland. At Tehran, Stalin put the map of Europe on table and with sharp red pencil delineated the new borders between USSR and Poland after the war. There is nothing more rewarding than nice piece of real estate. Churchill relating the Tehran Conference in the House of Commons have said; “Russian’s demands were right and just". Churchill and Roosevelt were very generous indeed. As the Red Army marched further and further west, Stalin’s appetite only increased for he seen how willing and weak his adversaries were. One conference after another, every single time his demands were approved by Churchill and Roosevelt. Half of Poland was already granted to him, but in order to reach Berlin he knew he could have all of it because he will be there first. Poland was going to be sovereign, independent and democratic, but just a little bit red, according to Stalin’s vision of the region finalized by the big 3 at Yalta Conference. At least that's what the western powers thought.

On July 5th, Great Britain and USA recognized the communist regime in Poland. Since Britain was a host to Polish government in exile and Polish soldiers refused to recognize the communist government as the legit government of Poland plus it was still loyal to the government in exile, this was an eye sore for Stalin and a communist government of Poland. The communist demanded that its boys the last soldiers, airmen and sailors in west return home. After all the question of Europe has been settled and it was time for Britain to salvage what was left of the Empire. Fearing communist demands it was decided to leave them out of London victory parade since they would be represented by the legit government of Poland at the Moscow victory parade and here was a great dilemma for the British Government, Polish soldiers; whose country was "free, independent and democratic", and most important recognized by British government decided to stay in Britain. They were not discouraged by the misfortune of the events and the treatment of the democratic west or the cry of many like you: "Polacks go home! We don’t want you here!” For many of them it was still better then to live in communist Eden. Eventually they moved on with their lives. They adapted to their new circumstances and new found motherland, wherever it might be. Poles are not seeking financial compensation, pity or even understanding by the likes of you, just a simple recognition of the events that have transpired so long ago. No matter how hard you try to twist and distort those facts, you cannot hide the truth.

I see that the spirit of those days is still alive in you Harry. Not only that you are lacking knowledge of European history, especially WWII era, refusing to recognize the truth, but keeping in step with the bigots of this world you still cry "Polacks go home! We don’t want you here!” Yet you move to Poland why?

As General Ironside commented in 1945, after much of Europe was in ruins, "Militarily we should have gone all out against the German the minute he invaded Poland. ... We did not ... And so we missed the strategical advantage of the Germans being engaged in the East. We thought completely defensively and of ourselves."[21] And so they did.

Why are you called HatefulBunch?

Only because of a thread I saw when I first visited the PF. The attitudes and sentiments seemed so...well...hateful. Forum members mentioned many of the people who post here are from other places, other than Poland.

My name describes how I feel about particular posts I saw in the thread I read when I first visited PF.
My name has nothing to do with this particular thread.

Military commanders are paid to say all kinds of nonsense. Look at Richard Myers in America, nothing but drivel comes out of his mouth.

It was not our fault that Poland's resistance was negligible. We had calculated that they could put up a fight a bit longer.

We entered WWII, 2 days, yes, 2 days after the invasion of Poland. Do you know how long it took for America to put military operations into place for Iraq and Afghanistan? Years. Months to haphazardly throw things together, last ditch preparations. So, better stay quiet HatefulBunch and stop feeling like the victim. Be glad we helped you!!

I am not trying to offend you. This is a discussion about history. A historical event, the meaning of it, the mistakes made, the significance.

America wasn't perfect either. Americans didn't want to be bothered at first either, that is true, plus there was Japanese aggression posing a threat.

I think we all would be much better off examining the past and learning from it.
Seanus, you made a valid point. I've noticed it myself. It seems like people repeat history no matter what, sometimes.
Maybe more discussions like this would make people more aware?

Well, now that you answered reasonably, I will respond in kind. I think what Britain feared at that time was dubious allegiances. OK, 5 years of the war were fought under Churchill. However, I think (not sure) it was May 1940 that he took over from Chamberlain. Thus, Chamberlain was still technically in power for the first 8 or 9 months. He did react quickly but without full capability, nothing like it. I admit that we were a shade inept but that's because we felt that we weren't quite ready.

I think that we lacked experts to analyse what Hitler was doing in 1938 and even before. With the benefit of hindsight, it was pretty clear what he was playing at but it's always easier in retrospect. Part of the fault lay there, we gave him the confidence through consecutive appeasement. Pacifiying an animal will likely heighten his appetite for destruction.

The key thing is, there was a response and we emerged victorious.

Correct me if I am wrong but plenty occurred prior to 1938 to raise questions about the direction of Germany:

In 1935, Hitler violated the Treaty of Versailles by introducing compulsory military service. In the same year, the UK signed the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. In 1936, Hitler reoccupied the demilitarized zone in the Rhineland.

In 1938 there was the little matter of the Anschluss in Austria and the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia.

That's what I was saying Babinich. Where were the experts to analyse his actions against his character? Even your most amateurish 'informed person' in international affairs would have spotted what he was up to. History can bow its head in shame for that. Appeasement was sth I studied in secondary school and I saw just how clearly it operated. I did a presentation on Hitler and the jigsaw was perfect.

I wish politicians would get their heads out of their arses and stop intervening where not necessary and start intervening where necessary.

Yet amazingly, it has been suggested by a number of posters on this thread.

Out of emotion more than anything else. Frustrated that we didn't save more lives, even though we jumped in 2 days after the invasion of Poland. Blame those who failed to see what Hitler was doing.

So did the British government which you claim was so frightened of Stalin agree to this request? Or did they give those Poles everything they needed?


And then it was decided that free Poles would be invited. Funny how you couldn't find space in you essay for that small but crucial fact.


They moved on with significant assistance from Britain and the Commonwealth. How much help did your heroes in the USA provide?


You seem to misunderstand which way the compensation should flow. Why can't Poland pay for all the equipment it used and all the assistance given to Polish citizens? Why can't Poles even say “Thank you”?


Says the man who lies about the London parade and leaves out the fact that free Poles were invited.


You wouldn't know truth if it slapped you in the face.

As you have such excellent knowledge of WWII, tell us all the exact things which Britain could have done to help Poland and failed to do.


And yet another lie from you. I have never said “Poles go home.” Home to me is Poland. Home to you is clearly a care centre for terminally moronic liars.

Point here is that many people didn't wanted to go to war for something they believed the Germans had a right to do it.

- Hitler didn't "re-occupy" the Rhineland, he freed it from the foreign occupation forces. There was a big, happy party in the Rhineland as the Wehrmacht marched in.

- Likewise in Austria...watch the footage from the applauding masses, and as
- Czechoslovakia never came through with their promise to listen to the Sudeten but was opressing them so it came of no surprise that Sudeten were also happy as the Wehrmacht came....about the rest of the Czechs...well...

There was no big will to deny the Germans their rights of self-determination which was so crudely abused in the treaty of versailles which the majority be then heartily came to dislike too, hence the lack of action...

GB was a democracy and how should London explain it to John Average who sees happy, re-unified Germans that his sacrifice, a war, an invasion is need to keep them unhappy!

PS: A smarter man than Hitler would have taken what he got and be away with it but he was insatiable, a fanatic on a mission!

hindsight is a great thing,,,

same as he said,, she said,,, we said,,,

as i wrote earlier history is written by the winners, truth is always twisted, which ever country you come from will have its own take on history,

i am sure noone could comprend in the 1940's what the outcome and consequences would be,,,

all we can do is learn from from the mistakes in the past and hope it never happens again, it doesnt matter which country you come from unless you believe in unity and peace it brings shame on all the people who fought and gave their lives so that a forum like this could exist,,,

i wish i could ask my grandfather some questions regarding this, or even my wifes grandfather, but i think some of self opionionated bullshit written here would have sickened them both,,,

The book 'To Lose a Battle' by Sir Alistair Horne answers the question you ask. It is all about the will to fight.

After the devastation of WWI certain nations, and I am not judging them, seemed to have lost the will to fight.


Intervening where necessary... Seanus, late in WWII do you feel that intervention on the part of the French, British, and the Americans concerning Soviet expansionism was necessary?


How did the next five to ten years work out for Joe Average?

The German Army wanted no part of Hitler. The dilemma for Beck was he knew Hitler was leading them down the road to disaster but he could not get support from the masses when Der Fuehrer was conquering lands without a drop of blood being spilled.

BB, one should never let a belligerent re-arm...

Emotion does not make for rational analysis.


I don't really expect Poles to say "Thank you", however I most certainly don't expect them to b1tch about being stabbed in the back by Britain. I genuinely think (well I hope) that the real Poles who do view history in this way, are very much in the minority. I understand the suffering experienced by many Poles during WW2 (my best friend's grandmother is a prominent holocaust survivor - her testimony nearly bought me to tears), however I do resent the utterly ridiculous notion that Britain was in some position to prevent it all from happening.


Whilst the policy of appeasement was clearly flawed (again, hindsight is a wonderful thing), it should be recognised that Britain desperately wished to avoid a war, as well as being hopelessly unprepared for it. People who suggest that invading Germany in 1939 (or even prior in some cases) are, imo, living in cloud cuckoo land.

The French could have done it (invaded Germany after the Polish campaign started).

A generation of young men lost for a few hundred yards of muddy field. It's clear to see why.


I don't think that military intervention against the Soviet Union late in WW2 was ever a realisatic option. America had the means but not the will, and Britain (even with the will) were in no position to do so.


Are you referring to Hitler or Germany? If so, are you suggesting that Germany should forever be denied a military?


How long did the French hold out for when Germany invaded? Besides, the French are the French ;)

In general; it is not a good idea to let a belligerent re-arm.


May 10th 1940 has nothing to do with September 3rd 1939. The French had a clear numerical advantage in men and material.

You make a big error again....you shouldn't use hindsight when you want to understand the peoples and their times!

Harry

Poland put too much faith in Churchill and the Allies, and it is no secret that he personally was not very fond of Poles one might even say he despised them (like you Harry). That was our mistake of which young Poles are well aware of and I don’t think we will make the same mistake in the future. When General Anders protested the agreement reached at Yalta to Churchill and told him few choice words of what he thought about it; Churchill’s reply was and I quote “I don’t need Polish troops anymore”. At that very conference our allies gave away our eastern territories to Stalin just as Hitler had done so previously. Furthermore western powers have withdrawn their recognition of Polish Government in Exile in favor of new regime formed at Lublin which was acceptable to Stalin. Poland did not fight just to capitulate to USSR but they were forced to do so by their allies. As General Bor so eloquently put it “Yalta was most painful blow of them all.”

Many western politicians at that time were of the opinion that if there was a conservative regime in Poland (read Catholic) in their view the Poles were practically like the Nazis. This view is upheld by the likes of you even today. They chose to support Stalin and did everything in their power to give in to every demand of his, for which we all paid dearly. FDR’s envoy Harry Hopkins personally told Stalin and I quote “We had no desire to support in any way the Polish government in London.” These are historical facts that you can find in official document and policies adapted by the great powers at that time. It is for the very same reason that Polish Government in Exile was not invited to the United Nation Conference of 1945.

It is not my mission to change the opinion of anyone reading this thread including you and I will not debate you. As I have stated before you “lack comprehension skills”. Which part of the “Poles are not seeking financial compensation” you do not understand, perhaps I can clarify it for you and try to be more precise next time, so even a simpleton like yourself can understand.

What if debates are fun and should be taken with a grain of salt. This is appropriate forum to discuss such matters but you should keep in mind they are only an opinion of the author. If I’m not mistaken you write articles for various publications therefore it is my opinion that you should be held to a higher standard than the average poster here. Please take your time when reading so there’s no confusion as to what actually have been said when quoting someone, state the facts as facts and your opinions as such.

Conditions are what matter; the "times" you happen to be in should have nothing to do with it.

It is always easier to nip a problem in the bud before it metastasizes.

Well...most Germans who supported Hitler felt he "nipped the problems". As nobody else wanted to help them...

Imagine a referendum for all Germans...on one side stands Hitler promising to right things again, on the other side you, Babinich, telling them....what?