What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

Because when I give you the finger you want to take the whole hand!
When I say yes it was an important victory a Polonius (just one example) would make it to a singlehanded battle which saved the whole of Europe!

I will never forget how Poles are so readily ignore that the battle against the Turks at Vienna was a JOINT fight, without the allies, without the brave Viennese who suffered so long at the siege the Poles would have won nothing.

It's the same with Kopernikus - I wanted to share, acknowledge the symbiose between the Germans and the Poles but for some Poles (remember Lukasz) even that is to much asked for....he has to be a German-hating full blood Pole!

So sorry when people are more inclined to play you down!

is Grunwald 1410 not enough?

Erm...one battle...it seems to be enough for Poles!
Hence the lack of others... :):):)

I only speak for myself but this debate has nothing to do with not giving Poland my respect. I am merely arguing against the following misconceptions:

1) That Britain betrayed Poland by not launching an immediate land invasion of Germany in 1939.

2) That Britain were in any position to ensure a free Poland in 1945 (thus betraying them again).

I'm not saying that the Poles have not fought and suffered, merely that their misfortunes are above all geogrphical, and not part of some Western conspiracy to bend them over and screw them. It's easy to feel like a victim, and that usually involves blaming someone. In this case, it appears to be just about the whole of Europe and to some extent the US. I'm surprised that Spain has come in for a pasting yet.

Well, considering I am not Jewish....


No, but simple acknowledgement of these victories would suffice.
You do not even acknowledge that they had partial importance in European history...


Yes, it was a joint fight, and yes, these allies were there. They were protecting their own interests. The well being of their own people.

But you seem to forget that Poland was only bound by a scrap of paper to save these brave Viennese who were defending THEIR OWN city. Sobieski could have just as easily sat at home and rested his horse, and waited for the Turks to overstretch themselves before attacking. Sobieski and the Poles possessed the most effective tactics against the Turks from experience, something that even your dear Germans could not match. Without them, Vienna would have undoubtedly fallen into Turkish hands. I doubt you will find a historian who would agree that the Turks would have kept going and taken all of Europe... that is rubbish. Their empire was already in decay before they attacked Austria...

Too weak to keep going, but strong enough to have been able to hold Vienna and the territory around it.

Hell, here's a thought. Why didn't Poland negotiate a treaty with the Turks to backstab Austria? We all know what Austria did a few decades later...

Okay...I agree to have downplayed Poland...but it's a kneejerk reaction to so many posts of "we are the greatest, the bravest, the most loyal, the best fighters, we are the saviours of Europe, the sun shines out of our arses etcetcetc)...do you see us Germans behave that way?

You see? Was it that hard B.B? : )


No... rarely. You would have to get to know a German very well before they make these claims to you ;)

So you agree and I didn’t even have to put my helmet on. NICE

If Poland were not that big of a threat it wounldn't have taken two major country's from all sides to attack. Tell me what other country has ever faced the odds and held out fighting from the start until the end of the war?

I'm here huckleberry.

What is more conspicuously absent is your lack of ability to generate original ideas and merely hang on to the coat tails of Messrs Kikline and Harry et al.

In fact, what is more conspicuously absent is a sense of respect for women, judging by your and Vanfukoolo's post's against certian female forum members on this topic. You and your ilk disgust me and I'm sure others feel the same whose modesty may stop them from commenting - I however have no such trepidation.

What you've done is akin to a form of harassment. If you weren't a halfwit I'd be concerned but your apparent lack of logic suggests you have no control over your actions.

If you were a man, you'd apologise. Fair enough you have a different view to these ladies but that's no excuse for the way you post.

Back to the topic:

The Pomgolian (Harry, Kline, Irons etc) perspective appears to be that Poles are whingeing or attacking the English for betraying Poland.

I put a similar notion in the introductory statement to my post and invited you to attack that. You failed to come up with anything. The only person that I see who came up with anything intelligible was Osiol. I dont know if he's a Pom or what though.

Consequently, the road of the coward and ill informed was taken - why self reflect when you can blame it all on someone else, or divest responsibility with reference to minor anecdotes as evidence of fulfilment of Britain's 'obligations'.

Naturally, your response is what could we have done? You say Poles were invited to the VE ceremony, the RAF conducted a succesful bombing raid on 5 September 1939 and other gargantuan achievements in supposed discharge of your obligations under the treaty/contract/agreement entered with Poland just before WW2 (no doubt I'll be corrected for incorrect dates. So be it. I'm more interested in analysis rather than rote).

I've raised this before in another thread with another bloke from England who I'm happy to say had a wit keener than all three of you said bumblers put together and didn't resort to disrespecting women either.

Take a balance sheet of Polish contributions in discharge of her obligations under the treaty and then cross reference that against the English contributions. Now, I won't spoon feed, but it kicks off for Poland at about the BoB. It's common knowledge the balance is in Poland's favour. It's trite to say the Poms did a few things too. You've pointed those out so no need to repeat.

Your response will no doubt be (as it's been touched on already) the parameters were unclear, nothing said in the treaty compelled the Brits to do much, not binding etc etc - basically, that it was a sham, set up for political niceties and a bit of chest beating.

This is where it gets interesting...

There is a legal concept called estoppel, or more particularly, equitable estoppel. It's not really my area of law, but in a nutshell it says that a party (GB) should not go back on a promise or undertaking or undermine an assumption of action when another party (Pl) acts on the assumption, or that promise, to their detriment.

You fill in the gaps and relate it to our situation. Clear now?

This is where it gets more interesting:

The Poms failed to tell the Poles that they had effectively been cut loose at Teheran with the deal cut between Stalin and Churchill until Mickolaczyk got crucified when he thought he was entering into territorial negotiations in good faith in late 1944.

One can only assume the relative morality and sense of alliance of GB and Poland in those circumstances:

THE POMS KEPT THE POLES IN THEIR RANKS TO FIGHT FOR THEM WHILST KNOWING THAT THEY HAD STRUCK A DEAL WITH STALIN THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD TO THE POLES AS IT EFFECTIVELY DOOMED THEM TO SOVIET CONTROL.

I think it was Slessor who summed that piece of backstabbing nicely (and I take liberty with paraphrasing):

WE'VE BLED THE POLES DRY NOW WE INTEND TO CAST THEM ADRIFT

One of those bled dry under the British was my grand uncle. He wanted to return home but couldn't. Kind of sucks doesn't it? But I'm just a plastic Pole with no connection to the issues, aren't I? This coming from two Poms on a Polish forum, one of whom has no clearly identified link to anything Polish and another who wishes he had a Polish girlfriend.

You'll no doubt come back and say it was done to secure stability in the East, Russian co-operation, realpolitik necessities or a myriad of other excuses. Fair enough - however, a stab in the back is still the same whether it's delivered with an altrusitic riposte or a self serving lunge. Poles, and we plastic Poles, take issue with being stabbed - you take issue with us for doing that.

Should I and like minded posters be criticised, or should you?

Between the 3 or 4 of you, I'm sure you'll organise some half assed response. It's been my experience though that a group of Poms have trouble organising a piss up in a pub.

Oh, and gentlemen - before you spout off about Australia being a prison colony of England in trying to diminish my credit, I suggest you relate to the other members just how that came about and who came here - Ill start you off - Scots and Irish political prisoners, destitutes who stole loaves of bread to survive etc.

I'm proud of the 'convict culture', even though I'm not Anglo Saxon. You again seek to impress a negative connotation when the whole context shows differently. The egg (or in your instance, jellied eel) is on your faces. Learn from it.

Sounds like 1939 but the Poles were the Brits and the Viennese were the Poles.


The basic points still stand regarding Polish myths cultivated by people like yourself. You nor any other plastic has managed to respond truthfully or accurately to them and until you provide a valid response to these points they will still stand. Your smokescreen regarding the chip on your shoulder about Brits hides nothing but speaks volumes by the way.

Your gallantry regarding women is refreshing if a little patronising though. The 'little ladies' are entitled to have their opinions challenged like everyone elses.

Nice to see you starting with a bit of casual racism. Really adds to the weight of your argument. And it’s exactly what we’ve come to expect from a classy poster like you.


And naturally you will completely ignore that question because you know the answer to it as well as we do. But why let facts get in the way of a spot of racist abuse?


We can say it because it is true. Note that almost all of the Poles who have commented on the subjects here have lied about the events.


It is really? Let’s compare: how many Poles died in combat in Britain? Well, their big opportunity would have been in the BoB. According to available records 139 Polish pilots took part in that battle and 30 of them were killed. Now let’s look at how many British died in combat in Poland. Their big chance would have been the Warsaw Uprising. According to the Museum of the Warsaw Uprising 126 British and Commonwealth airmen died during supply missions. Half of the non-Polish squadrons involved were British (and the others had numerous Brits in them), so we can assume that half the dead were British. So that will make 30 Polish dead in the BoB and 63 British dead during the Warsaw Uprising. Still want to spoon feed us your myths and lies?


Do remind us what the British promise was. Wasn’t it something along the lines of protecting the independence of Poland from a “European Power” by giving “all the support and assistance in its power.”? What assistance could Britain have given which it did not give? Oh, sorry, I forgot that as a Plastic Pole you are duty bound to ignore that question.


The deal cut between Stalin and Churchill? FDR played no role in that deal? Sorry, I’m forgetting that you are a Plastic Pole and thus to you the USA can do no wrong.

Please do explain where and when the British ever guaranteed Polish independence when faced by an attack from the USSR. Oh, sorry, my mistake again: Britain never made any such guarantee.


You are so right. I mean, without the help of the Poles from 1943 onwards Britain would have been completely fucked, wouldn’t it? The only reason that the Nazi army didn’t sweep through the USSR before turning and annihilating the British, Commonwealth and American armies was the heroic Polish army, right?


And the British government stopped him, did they? Or did they actually arrange for him to have a free ride home, which he then refused to accept? And did they then provide him with a place to live before paying for his ticket to Australia?

How typical of a Plastic Pole to lie about what happened and talk sh!t about the people who actually did help his ancestor.


Yes you are a classic Plastic Pole. You are the grandson of a true Pole but you think that you are Polish. You’re not. You are an Australian (and congratulations on your racism, it must stand out even in Australia).

Personally I have no connection at all with Poland. I mean, I’ve only lived here for 13 years. How many days have you spent in Poland in your life? Fewer than 13?


In my experience some Australians have a habit of being racist. Nice of you to live up to that stereotype.


And I bet you’re proud of the fact that Australians used to hunt Aborigines for sport too. Just a pity that you weren’t around then. Although some people might think it a pity that Hitler wasn’t as successful at exterminating the Poles as the people you are proud to belong to were at exterminating Aborigines.

Challenged is one thing, name calling and insulting, rude reply's. I'm sorry this is not called for.


When Britain wanted a piece of Poland, to have and to hold, this told how much we were respected.


Thank you, you are indeed a gentleman. :)


It is comments like this that make my "Polish blood boil". I do thank God you are not Polish. Maybe you should look at how many true Polish lost the homes to war. It must really scare you that we are speaking out and demanding history be accurate. Just think if you degrade us enough we may get scared and leave, then the slander could continue. I don't think so. Harry, deal with it, we are here to stay and tell our family history.

I've called you a liar because you keep telling lies even after the truth of the matters has been pointed out to you.


When did Britain ever want a piece of Poland? The only parts of Poland used by the British have been the places used to bury the servicemen who died in Poland. How unfortunate that you consider this much land to be too much.


Sorry Carol but I am Polish any time I apply for the passport. And, unlike your Plastic Pole self, I actually can have a Polish passport because I have no fear of losing any other nationality I hold. Where's your Polish passport Plastic Carol?


You are demanding history to be accurate? There't the joke of the year. You and your Plastic Pole friends are lying about history and attacking anybody who dares to point out that the truth is far from the myths which the Plastic community love to spread.

Carry on calling what we say "slander". The facts will remain as they have always been and your myths will just be exposed to even more ridicule. It's your choice.

No one has a right to claim protection from non-gender specific insults just because they've got a pair of tits.

How's that for class. I never asked for "protection" but the fact that any one in here would need to speaks for itself. Go back in the posts and read the usage of foul degrading, non related responses. There's no need and it just lowers the standards. We can all name call and swear but theres limits. Maybe eye to eye conversations would help as you could see the hurt words cause. We are not just "tits", we are caring people that have real feelings.


Harry get off your "Polish Passport" bs, it's nothing but a piece of plactic. Did you loose your Grandmother, uncles, aunts along with other family? Do you really have the right to speak for the Polish Goverment? You see Poland was full of "Polish Communists that many Polish felt were not "true Polish".

I never said you were just tits, I said that you have them. Feel free to go on another misguided factually incorrect crusade.

Namecalling is wrong but the protection that was called for was because you're 'a 'lady' and the fact that people call for it says more about their outdated patronising ideas of gallantry as well as their attempts at casting opponents as 'big bad bullys' picking on the poor defenceless girlies.

How dare you impugn my grandmother’s honour! She is most certainly not a ‘loose woman.


Unlike you Carol, I have the right to elect certain members of the Polish government. And I make use of that right. When was the last time that you voted for any member of the government of the nation you claim to belong to? Oops, my mistake, you can’t vote for any members of the government of Poland because you are not Polish: you are American.


So you don’t have a Polish passport. Because you can not get one without giving up your American passport, which you won’t do because, when push comes to shove, you’ll declare yourself American, not Polish.

And if anything is nothing but a bit of plastic, it’s you and your Plastic Pole mates like OziDan and Juliet (although she’s run off to hide now that I’ve called her out on her promise to plant flowers and light some candles on the graves of British servicemen killed in combat in Poland.

Actually, name-calling and insults are rude no matter which gender. Most forums prefer that people differ, but remain respectful. There is no need to be nasty. Or see who is more Polish.

Nobody is claiming to be more Polish than anybody else. The Plastic Poles are claiming to be higher being by virtue of being Polish.

The insults are only coming from one side (see all the racist comments about British people and comments such as "your little scummy fuzzy pompon ass" and "your gay ass" from another of the Plastic Poles). Calling somebody a liar is not an insult when they are lying. Neither is calling somebody a Plastic Pole when they pretend to be Polish but are actually American or Australian.

Well, Poland wasn't seen as a big threat...I posted before what Germany wanted from Poland (no reaction from you about that) but Poland choose to be haughty and provocative/arrogant instead of trying for negotiations (the old we-are-the-better-soldiers/army/whatever-than-you-and-we-can't-wait-to-kick-your-ass-syndrome).

The Poles also didn't "held out" very well as Poland was conquered in 5 weeks.
They did what every other country which was occupied did too...they organized a resistance (there were free french for example too).
What do you think was so special about Poland???
I tell you what it was...the Nazis never gave Poland the same choice for self government they gave other countries, that was the difference...now what if that had been so?

I tell you what I think, Poland would have collaborated the same as did other countries, inclusive a polish government bowing to the Germans...don't fool yourself here Cel!

Original ideas? Ha ha ha. The 'original ideas' which you and your ilk espouse are known as revisionism; the kind of historcal techniques employed by such well respected 'historians' such as David Irving. You're 'historical fact' forms part of a self-pitying agenda which is quite frankly pathetic. I'm not going to respond to ridiculous ideas such as:


And why should I? I didn't graduate in History to argue with some platic poles who feel victimized. My answers are sometimes less than polite, because your ideas are quite frankly insulting. I would not argue with David Irving over whether the holocaust occurred for the very same reason.

What you are doing involves setting an agenda (namely that all Brits are lying backstabbers) and putting a twist on historical facts (creating the illsuion that Britain was in a position to and could have saved Poland) to shape this belief. I do take my hat off to you though, as some 25 pages later, you and your minions are still going strong.


Bravo sir, bravo. You had me in stitches with this piece. Coming from the very person who created this thread, with language designed to insult and antagonise. I'm sexist because I happen to be arguing with females, but you are not racist in using the term Pom? Go on admit it, this thread was one big fishing exercise. You created it, and sat back tugging yourself off in delight as the indignant replies came in from both sides. How sad.


*pulls out world's smallest violin*

Your hatred for all things British is clear to see. Anger does not make for rational argument I'm afraid. Answer this one question for me. What could Britain have done to ensure Polish independence after 1945? Realistically. Do you solely blame Churchill, or does your animosity extend towards FDR?

You'd like my Polish girlfriend Ozi, beautiful and intelligent. Much better than tugging yourself off every night.

Danny me ol cobba, you might still be living in the age of chivalry in that back of beyond country you inhabit but I live firmly in the 21st century where women are not immune to being called twats, if they are in fact twats.

In the country I call home, respect is earned, not dished out as some right that people are born to. Given what seems to be an inherent misconception on many things, you probably find this concept a little hard to comprehend which, in tern, would explian why I think you are a twat

Did you get that?

You've hit the nail right on the head there.

The problem for Ozi Plastic is that we keep posting facts in reply to the Polish myths. Facts which show that the people who repeat the Polish myths are nothing but liars.

Failing to respond to the repeated insults of the Plastic Poles is what really annoys them. Just calmly repeating facts in reply to their lies gets right under their skin and forces them to up the level of insults another notch while saying things like "Although I claimed that Poles were not invited to the London parade, what I actually meant was that the invitation was so insulting that Poles were forced to turn it down and anyway no Pommie bastards died fighting in Poland".


Come on, you know there is no way he will ever answer that question. Or at least he won't answer it with anything other than lies (like the one about the British refusing to allow his grandfather to return to Poland). Just as he will never answer the question about exactly what the British should have done in September 1939. Or the one about why Britain was under any obligation to protect Polish independence against a non-European power. Or the one about why the official government of Poland should not have been invited to the London parade. Or the one about exactly what the British should have done to aid the Warsaw Uprising. Or the one about ....

It's a fact. Poland, alone, didn't have the military might to handle Germany. Polish fighters tried but Poland needed it's own wehrmacht or collaboration with others to realistically defend itself against German aggression.

The Soviets could have challenged Germany's aggression had it not been for the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Of course this was all cleverly and covertly planned out...very secretively and clandestinely too, may I add ;) ;) ;) ;-)

That’s exactly what Poland did not want to do, government bowing to the Germans.


We were overrun in 5 weeks not conquered there is a difference, modern day example would be Iraq; they were overrun but are they really conquered?


Installing puppet government is not the same as collaboration; having few people in place protecting their own position (carriers if you will because they do not necessarily share your view of the world) and bowing to the masters is not the same as whole population blindly following some ideology. Could it happen? I’m sure it could have and as a matter of fact it did when the communists took over after the war. Finding few people that would sell their own mother for a carrier is not that big of an achievement, it happens every day in corporate world today and you find them in every culture, Poland is not immune to this phenomena. As Crow would have put it Nazi or Communist ideology is not compatible with Slavic Soul, therefore vast majority of the population would never be on your side and assimilate to the German way. The trick to conquer any people is to assimilate them into your own society and wiping off any notion of independence. That would never happen in Poland.


That’s exactly what most of the posters are doing by replying to you posts.


Realistically, not a thing. Britain was spent as an Empire by then, only keeping up the appearance of one. The question of betrayal is not what happen in 1945 but what happened in 1939.

Free French with British helping.


I thought I had. Well if not, if you think anything would have stopped Hitler, think again. If it was just your list, why did he con't after Poland?

No. Repeatedly posting "No British died fighting in Poland, you little scummy fuzzy pompon ass" is not calmly posting facts. Neither is repeatedly claiming that Poles were not invited to the London parade. Neither is repeatedly claiming that Britain could and should have done more to help Poland in 1939. Neither is claiming that Poland had fought to save Britain before September 1939.

You want to give just one example of a lie that I've posted in this thread? I've just given five examples of the ones repeatedly posted by our Plastic Poles.

Oy vey !!!!!!!111111

All those examples are in a little puny insecure mind of yours period. You constantly post half truth omitting a word here and there and bending the facts to fit your point of view. Looking for a specific example would be a waste of time and needles argument.