Poland. Sold for nothing.

Can we concentrate on the german-polish history please?

All of the Teutonic wars??? How came they played such a big role and build such a huge society in what is now Poland???
Sokrates, your balance sucks too..:)


???

Becuase Teutons repeatedly fielded large powerfull armies?

And maybe they also won a war or two?

Yup, we were way to generous for the Ze Germans :-]

I wonder what would happen if Polish army were not involved in Battle of Vienna in 1683?

200 years later great fuhrer could be born...Turk (or at least a half-Turk ;-])?

Nope, they've stalemated in the war of 1519 because Poland had to disband part of its units due to financial problems and demands from the HR Emperor due to invasion of Hungary by Turks and thats about it, Poland stopped mainly because it was convenient to consent to the Emperors request while sorting out the treasury, before the conflict could be restarted Prussia became secular and a vassal of Poland, as such it conceeded and the point of war vanished, thats about it.

As for Prussian-Polish war the main engagement is the siege of Warsaw.


You make me question the IQ list of Europe.

Well...I find it hard to believe that the Teutonic Order and also Prussia grew so large and influential without winning some more wars as you (or this list) want to admit...:)

Anyhow, the next one won't be fought between us!


I tell ya, this guy isn't polish!

That's a good riposte. senseless. You can't win against that.

BTW: you are not an European? What about your IQ? ;-]


You already accused me of writing from a different accounts.
Now that I'm not Polish?
What next? Maybe I'm a Ossi (pish) too? ;-]

Actually you grew so large because of masterful diplomacy, without Prussia Poland would revitalize itself with the constitution and then its 100k military and no partitions, you've been a catalyst for the partitions, Russia did most the figthing.

Well, you did!
And no...an Ossi wouldn't be as stupid as you are.
You are an embarassment for real Poles...and they told you already so!


Whoa...at least one crumb...I started to wonder...:)

This discussion is pointless, cause you can't provide an appropriate link, lol (sry, I couldn't resist)

Besides I don't expect much from a man who think that that he speaks for a whole German nation (and some of the less intelligent ;-] commentators believe him)

Now you speak for a REAL POLES, well why not...you can't be more pathetic than that...
komish Bratwurst Boy...

Prussia was a military power but not at a time when Poland was even relatively powerfull, in fact Prussia was only able to aquire this military power over Polands corpse, without it there would be no Prussia and since at a time it still wasnt strong enough diplomacy was the only way.

Prussia made Bismarck, Bismarck made WW1 and WW1 made Hitler, in the end you're two provinces less and carry a massive burden of history, i never said i wasnt impressed with Prussia but its an idea that always will lead to destruction of Germany since it always leads to confrontations that you cannot win, and you only need to get unlucky once to get exterminated.

Na ja...you simplify it so much it becomes wrong.

Monastic state of the Teutonic
Frederick William
Frederick III
Frederick William I
Frederick II
Frederick William II
Frederick William IV

Lots of stuff happened BEFORE Bismarck was even born and if that stuff hadn't happened he couldn't have used this powerfull Prussia to unify Germany.

And I won't even go into


as every good historian book will tell you that his forced leave from office by the new, inexperienced King was one of the many reasons which led to WW1.

A case could be made that with Bismarck there wouldn't had been a war...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck#Foreign_policies


He was a cool guy and because of him Germany not only unified but experienced a golden age (Gründerzeit), so please throw away your blinkers!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%BCnderzeit

1875-1914


Read the book

Thank you, Sokrates, for ability to see that. Germans will never appreciate it because it will never concern them before our own concerns.


Because you have not a slightest idea of threat, living in the heart of Europe, tidy and cosy. When you don't know the language, you can't understand mentality of these people. You don't listen to the news, neither read newspaper etc. All you get is "easy on Russia" reports by Western journalists and mass-media scared like Merkel to say anything against. Your ideas are built on romantic books of Dostoyewski and Pushkin were all is pretty or if not than pity-demanding - nothing else. And I don't see you will realize it ever like Sokrates or me do.

You have dependency on Russian oil and you continue to defend the project. Why don't you diversify? I am tired of repeating that and you never answer this question.

Generally I agree, but there's always room for an exception. You don't understand the mentality most likely knowing more or less Russian. Or either you play as if you don't understand. Your version of Russophobia is pretty much stupid. It doesn't have legs to stand on.

How is your german again? You seem to know all about us....

The fact is that Germany throught history always failed and still fails to understand how Russian international policy works, its a policy of domination and be extention war untill all of Europe within Russias reach is subdued, that has not changed and Germany is well within Russias reach.

There's a grain of truth in what Nathan said, you believe that your geographical position affords you safety from any agressive advances but that safety was typically because Poland was always there to clean up the mess, when Poland was not capable of doing it because of the post war order you've ended up with East Germany which is by far the mildest of unpleasantries that Russia can and will visit upon you if you treat her as a viable and responsible partner.

Yes we need to be polite to Russia, we have to do business with Russia but Germany should stop making deals over Polish head and actually listen what we have to say because as far as eastern policies we have a complete and sound grasp of whats what and Germany is clueless and laying foundations for another catastrophe.

Bearing in mind how easy it is for big countries start a war between two small other countries, possibility of using nuclear weapon in conventional war bothers me a lot... I don't bother to look for USA doctrine because I remember that they've had this stupid idea of small nukes for battlefield purpose... I'was pointing my finger on Russia only because of the context of this discussion


The problem with that threat is that Russia used to threaten Poland with some rockets at least from late 90'. I mean common awarness in Poland is that some Russian rockets are aimed at Poland anyway. So what is the difference? Nobody can be sure what is true anyway... You know, Poland is living in nuclear shadow almost from begining of Warsaw Pact, because in case of war between NATO and USSR as usual Poland destiny was to be a battlefield. Plans assumed nuclear strikes in army concentration spots...

So it shouldn't surprise anyone, that for many Poles shield conception doesn't look so stupid... (maybe not current conception, but idea of a shield)


Yes, they are the blanket as Poland was and this is most unfortunate. I have no intention to defend politicians but I think that Russian "pull methods" are a little more harsh to put it mildly. Especially regarding Lukaszenko I think this last dictator in this part of Europe would have been out a long time ago if it wasn't for Russia's persistent support for him.

Nathan, you are wasting your time on Bratwurst Boy.
He is an Ossi (German from the former DDR). He wants to speak for the whole Germans nation (and ever for a 'real' Poles) - which is pathetic.

And I'll tell you something about an Ossis - they are not taking seriously even (or maybe rather especially) in the Germany...

And shoving a bucket of **** down his throat helps anyone how?


Actually if anything thats awesome.

It really seems that an Ossi once kicked his nuts so hard he seems to harbor a heavy grudge against them...poor sod! That must had hurt!


Well...as compared to what?


Maybe most Germans really see Russia differently as our both countries had between wars also longstanding peaceful relationships to the advantage of our both countries...we don't forget about that!


Yeah...living in such a mostly plain territory in the center of Europe with barely any natural border makes for such a nice cozy spot where not countless times countless armies from the countless neighbours marched over, right?


Yeah...the polish/german history is such a nice, peaceful one too...


...as far as I remember we ended up in East Germany was because some nutters treated the Russians as "Untermenschen"...


Well...so you would prefer an anti-russian Germany again?
I think we prefer talks and business...and you can do that better when you treat them as equals, as viable and responsible partners!


Because we are trying to be civil we are "laying the foundations for another catastrophe"?
How we do it we do it wrong, yes? "Untermenschen" is wrong, invasion is wrong, war is wrong (we fail all the time), being nice is wrong too...we are so useless!

Rafal is 100% correct - you, BB, is a semi-communistic nostalgic guy, who misses Bratwurst and easy life of before 1989. Whatever you say about Untermenschen and s*** is simply BS. If there were not forces on the west side of Berlin, Russian satelites would have ended in Portugal and Iceland. Soviet Union treated East Germany like a new-born child sucking the resorces from other countries and you probably enjoyed it. But not anymore, have to work now. This is where you come from.


I studied German, though I wouldn't say I remeber much now. But the only thing that I say about Germany is the pipe-line, not your history, which is deeply intertwined with Ukrainian in 20th century and I have some knowledge of as well. Where do I comment on anything else about your country?

Interesting Poll: polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreignaffairs/artykul105812_poles_and_germans___friendship_without_passion_.html


It seems Germans see some things just differently than Poles...


Whatever you say Natty....
But I can understand if youre miffed about Ossis...it's our Ossi chancellor after all who don't want either in the EU nor in the NATO you because she knows you mean only trouble!


Jealous???


Tell me more about it...when was the Ukraine ever something "special" to Germany???

It's quite interesting to behold your guys rhetoric changing due to your personal preferences. Sokrates is obviously friendly towards Germans whereas more than just sceptical to Russians. Rafal is ok with Russians (at least I've never heard of any tough antikacapian notions of him) but hardly expresses warm feelings towards Germans. Nat hasn't made up his mind yet on who he is and playing a role of a sh!t in the ice hole floating hither and thither, desperately sucking up on a part-time basis to anybody who he believes will help him to charge windmills (struggle against Russians).

Can we all (Germans, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians) be equally friendly and respectful to each other simultaneously, I wonder? Let's shake hands guys...

P.S. BB as semi-communistic as the Earth is square.

"Special"? Hhahah. When the Germany was "special" to Ukraine? What are talking about? You want to say the the Germany wasn't in WW1 and WW2 which where part of my country's history as well. That's all I am saying. "Special" ?!! Hhahaha.


If I take something from you and give it to somebody else, would you be jealous?


I hope my country is not in EU ever. I don't want Ukraine to be part of it at all. And NATO, what is it? It is a joke fighting in Afghanistan, nothing more. I believe my country has enough military force to defend itself, if not, an alliance with some other countries would be ok as well. NATO is not reliable as many will absolutely support me in that. It follows US policy and nothing else. If it is in US interests to give off a country , it will. EU?! You are a rich conglomerate and I wish you good luck, but keeping independance of economical decisions and normal economical relations is enough for Ukraine than be part of something where you are a small piece called "Nothing".

Well...it was you who meant:


...and I asked for clarification.
Maybe I had missed something but of course I hadn't!

And no...being the marching territory of foreign armies is not enough to earn a "special" place because of "deeply intertwined history"...nope...


Of course I would be...


As compared to the successful Ukraine, right! :):):)


You mean as in "broke"?


Really! :):):)
You and what army?


Well...it's the US who is your biggest ally and who wants you in...most Europeans won't.
You are blaming the wrong guy here (again)...

How long did you march? ;) "Special" hahah. You think of all as trying to suck up to the Germany. Haha. Cool.


Normal person would be angry when something is stolen from him/her. Jealous is when YOU DON'T HAVE what OTHERS POSSESS.


No, it is not successful, but I don't see success of my country in being part of EU.


Nope, I mean when it will be on its feet and normal economical relations are established. Being a part of EU is not what I see a key to Ukraine's success.


Well, ask your opas und omas.


They want to build a shield for their armor by my country. What is wrong with your notion of the world as allies? If you are an ally (which it is really not), does it mean you have to bent over? I think it is a policy of the Germany , not Ukraine.

Umm...it was YOU who spoke of "deeply intertwined history" between Ukraine and Germany...but for me the Wehrmacht on her way to Moskau (and back) isn't enough, sorry.

Maybe you have another example???


That's why I asked? :)


Well...


About what?


Well, Germany is not hot about these shields either...you don't make sense Natty...

I said about wars which are part of our common history, isn't it? I am not trying to establish any relationship whatsoever with the Germany. All I said was that I comment on the Germanic pipe and its history only when there is a connection to Ukraine. That's all. If you are looking for suck-ups, search for someone else. Maybe, word "deeply" I used incorrectly, but the only reason I applied it was devastation it brought to both, nothing else. So, stop looking for s***.

Yes...that's what I think too but it made me curious if I had missed some part about the relationship between our countries.
That's why I asked for clarification...several times... (I'm in a patient mood today)...


Have a beer...

Of course we can. We are all Slavs after all.

Sorry, during edition I accidentelly deleted the first nation from your list...;-]