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Poland. Sold for nothing.


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
6 Apr 2009 /  #91
There was an embargo that Kaczyński fought over against Russia and he had the support of the people. He also stalled on the missile shield, biding his time for extracting concessions and a better deal.

As I said, I am not a major fan by any stretch.
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #92
btw Georgia was a Russian satelite not that long ago (Shevardnadze presidency)

and then popular revolt turned it into the opposite direction

any ideas why???
southern 75 | 7,096  
6 Apr 2009 /  #93
any ideas why???

Because US paid for the revolt.I doubt very much about all these coloured revolts.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #94
Was it because of the US or did they not want to be a part of Russia?
Rafal_1981  
7 Apr 2009 /  #95
Do you think it democratic if a country of about 30 millions has the same say as a country of about 80 Millions?

We'll see what you gonna say when Turkey join the EU, heh

BTW: Country of 6 million people - Ireland - paralyzed ( or I would rather say: healed :-]) the whole European Common.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #96
We'll see what you gonna say when Turkey join the EU, heh

Well...when you are shitting your pants because of Germany already I can't wait how you will handle a less generous but a much more assertive and self centered Turkey who won't be as willing to compromise with you and take your ****.

I can't actually wait to see your faces when the Turks are telling you directly where to shove it!

To bad it would be the death of the EU...but then...there are the core countries who already believe the enlargement was a wrong step anyhow.

We will then just pack our things and build a new union...be happy with the Turkey!

Who needs whom! Heh

Country of 6 million people - Ireland - paralyzed ( or I would rather say: healed :-]) the whole European Common.

Yeah...imagine that...the big bad beasts allow a tiny wart to control and out vote them...isn't that a clear sign of the franco-german conspiracy to overlord all of Europe soon?

HOW HORRIBLE!

And I bet Poland in the place of Germany would never had allowed such a thing to happen...
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #97
...be happy with the Turkey!

Turkey's the new gateway to the world. Our president was just there reassuring Islam the US will never be at war with it.
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
7 Apr 2009 /  #99
isn't it eyebrow-raising that there is so much pressure on Ireland to conform???

is there no pressure on Polish president to sign the Treaty so that Ireland can be blackmailed even more bluntly?

what sort of compromise attitude and goodwill is it?

and who's goal is it supposed to further?

how do you imagine one common foreign EU policy when you seem to lead a policy of appeasement of a country several EU countries are affraid of?

what kind of honesty is it to propose a European Treaty that just is European Constitution in disguise (the constitution that has been rejected in popular votes here and there)

if you don't see cynicism there then I can't imagine where are you able to see any
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #100
Well...aren't you excercising pressure too to get what you want? Steinberg, pipeline, voting rights etc???
Is it only allowed for Poland???

Did Germany threaten Ireland? Did they punish them afterwards? Did they throw them out? Ireland profited for years from EU-money..
BUT NOT ONE BAD WORD from us...we have accepted their decision even if many were not happy!
Compare that to Polish tantrums whenever something is percieved as not going their way...

Get a grip man! I really wish you won't get ever in a worse union as you are right now....

how do you imagine one common foreign EU policy when you seem to lead a policy of appeasement of a country several EU countries are affraid of?

With you? None at all...
As long Poles like you call their lone goal in diplomacy to "treat on toes" there will nothing worthwile develop!
You are just not constructive...

And what is wrong with a European Constitution?
This Union is now so large we need some kind of common rule book. And I bet you never ever read it...
What exactly is your beef with this treaty? Which passages do you don't like?
jwojcie 2 | 763  
7 Apr 2009 /  #101
BB, Kaczyński saw through nonsense. I'm not a fan of his but he had the balls to stand up to Russia, the EU and America. He was a little too uncompromising but he was firm.

Tusk waltzes into things without providing justifications to the people.

Ha, here is the problem what is better:
- man with great balls and firm but not cunny, or
- man with smaller balls, not very firm but at least a little cunny?

I don't know, but it turned out that in first case on global scale this great balls were peanuts, and in the second this cunny fox turned out to be weasel... Internally this firm man just pissed people off, this not firm at least didn't put his finger where it didn't belong...

So we are looking for a new, better balanced leader but in the meantime for me as long as Tusk don't let to print money (as Kaczynski would like to) I will vote for him. In fact external affairs has a little meaning during slow down... In fact nobody in Poland cares about this shield much now (except people near Slupsk) ...
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
7 Apr 2009 /  #102
There are some looming threats raised towards Ireland. Ask Irish people..

The pipeline thing again - what is the difference to German customer if the gas comes through a land pipeline or a submarine pipeline. Why Germans (authorities and poeple brainwashed by media) insist on the submarine one? Is it really of vital importance to Germany that the gas should be delivered on the sea bottom? Why is that so?

Poland has been put under enormous pressure to abandon the square root proposal. Was there any serious intention to discuss it on the German and French side? Not for a moment. It has been ridiculed and Poland called names all around the place. The reason?

Was there any discussion at all about the shape of the new treaty? Or was it somehow by chance designed by some without much asking around, then put into media curricullum, advertised as the best sell and then attempt has been made to push everyone to accept it or they are un-European somehow?

As for Mrs Steinbach issue (the recent one) - it was a Pyrrhic victory in a non-issue. (a symbolic rubbish) (my guess it was a populist stunt by the present government who need to show they have spine - I doubt if they have)

btw I am not aware of any serious matters being by Polish side raised if Mrs Steinbach should be appointed notwithstanding. It's not there haven't been any but not aware of it. Just a shouting and spitting grandad. Who btw has called me cattle once. So I have little sympathy for him and his apparent victories.

I was talking about myself when I wrote I just love to tread on your toes. You do to assume too much.
Rafal_1981  
7 Apr 2009 /  #103
Well...when you are shitting your pants because of Germany already I can't wait how you will handle a less generous but a much more assertive and self centered Turkey

Turkey gonna be an excellent counterbalance I the EU :-].
And I bet you are shitting your pants already (when I say you, I mean you - a self obsessed Ossi - not a whole German nation that you imagine you represent :-])

Turkey is not a threat to Poland. Turkey is a threat (less power) to EU so called hard-core:
France and Germany.

Great Britain remains a strong supporter of Turkish EU membership:
euractiv.com/en/enlargement/eu-turkey-relations/article-129678

Besides, it wasn't Poland's idea (we weren't EU members yet) to give a Turkey a special status :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union-Turkey_Customs_Union

and after that (Helsinki 1999) a status of a candidate country (same link).

Yeah...imagine that...the big bad beasts allow a tiny wart to control and out vote them...isn't that a clear sign of the franco-german conspiracy to overlord all of Europe soon?
HOW HORRIBLE!

I would say that eurocrats overlooked that obstacle (that's why there in an idea to repeat the voting as many times as needed to accept a constitution in a referendum - of course once accepted there would be no reason to repeat it ;-])
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #104
There are some looming threats raised towards Ireland. Ask Irish people..

Which ones?
You seem to know all about it...tell me....

The pipeline thing again - what is the difference to German customer if the gas comes through a land pipeline or a submarine pipeline. Why Germans (authorities and poeple brainwashed by media) insist on the submarine one? Is it really of vital importance to Germany that the gas should be delivered on the sea bottom? Why is that so?

We (not only Germany but several other western European countries)need much more energy in the future as the demand always grows.
What's wrong with investing in new modern pipelines without having to pay a middle man?
And why do you care???

Poland has been put under enormous pressure to abandon the square root proposal.

What pressure?

Better Poland had searched for likeminded countries and build alliances to bring their point across. In the end it seemed Poland was all alone and had to cave in against a strong majority (NOT only Germany and France btw).

..."Poland's proposal advocating that EU member states' voting strength be calculated according to the square root of their population in millions has been rejected by 25 countries. Late in the night on 22 June, only Poland, backed by the Czech delegation, was in favour of such a system."...

That's the way a union works btw...sometimes you win, sometimes you lose..you don't get always what you want, Germany neither (treaty).

Was there any discussion at all about the shape of the new treaty?

Yes there was...and everyone can read it and make himself an image...but somehow I doubt most of the opponents did that because many problems people like you have with the EU are explicitely ruled in this treaty, giving you security and a law against abuse and more rights...but you couldn't be arsed, couldn't you.

Germany wants the treat so it must be bad by nature!

You do to assume too much.

Says you...

Your square root wouldn't had worked anyhow...

economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/10/andrew-gelman-w.html

...A quick summary of our argument: The square-root-rule is derived from a game-theoretic argument that also implies that elections in large countries will be much much closer (on average) than elections in small countries. This implication is in fact crucial to the reasoning justifying the square-root rule. But it's not empirically correct....

gumishu 12 | 6,071  
7 Apr 2009 /  #105
We (not only Germany but several other western European countries) need much more energy in the future as the demand always grows.
What's wrong with investing in new modern pipelines without having to pay a middle man?
And why do you care???

If the gas from the submarine pipeline is more expensive then the one from a land pipeline after transit fees what is the goal of building the submarine one? An economic one???

I don't buy if you state now it is gonna be cheaper. Count the interesests on capital used to build the submarine one.
You need much more energy ok you can build a pipeline through Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. Lots of them in fact. One for the tenth of the submarine pipeline worth. We're gonna cooperate happily. Any obstacles in your sight?? Russians you say? Oh yes Russians not Poles.

The Treaty is not bad because it is proposed by Germany but because it shifts balances severely. Calls for unity where there was not enough goodwill before to create one. (So implies forced unity)

My beef with treaty is EU president, EU foreing ministry and similar. I see it as a way to impose policies on smaller countries.

actually I am quite happy to trample on your toes :P

in Polish we say deptać komuś po odciskach

As long Poles like you call their lone goal in diplomacy to "treat on toes" there will nothing worthwile develop!
You are just not constructive...

Ok, you did not assume too much. You have simply not understood.

Never heard of any Polish politician stating our policies are to 'tread on one's toes'.

And there has not been much strife for the sake of strife on Polish side (if any) - maybe contrary to what you would like to believe.

I was not saying about policies, just my attitudes and yours.

Will read the article someday - curious if you have read it yourself.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #106
If the gas from the submarine pipeline is more expensive then the one from a land pipeline after transit fees what is the goal of building the submarine one? An economic one???

The german firms like BASF and EON are no stupid newbies. They have calculated that the costs for a fully newly build pipeline under the baltic see will still come much cheaper in the long run.

Believe me they are private profit oriented people there....no ideologues!

The Ukraine is a good example...we are dependent on them right now and what does it gets us? Uncertainty the moment the winter comes and if we want functioning pipelines we even have to pay for the repair ourselves...thank you very much!

My beef with treaty is EU president, EU foreing ministry and similar. I see it as a way to impose policies on smaller countries.

I actually don't see a great chance to ever get all EU countries to agree to the same policies...some just don't want to.

But that would be cool for an EU before the enlargement...that would had worked well.
It speaks alot for another Union...a smaller one...
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
7 Apr 2009 /  #107
I don't see any point of discussing with you any further.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #108
It's no discussing...you are throwing your paranoia around, nothing more!
Randal 1 | 577  
7 Apr 2009 /  #109
Our president was just there reassuring Islam the US will never be at war with it.

Of course Obama was going to say that to his homie brothas.

Poland is a pawn on global scene, no doubt... but even a pawn can checkmate the king sometimes...

Personally I dislike the idea of Poland being a shield... it is never good to be a shield... But in current envirement I don't see other solution

Right.
Poland would have been stupid to turn down the US’s offer. Once in place the shield could have served a number of purposes, both current and unseen in the future.

Make no mistake, it was the current US administration with its domestic overspending agenda and appeasing foreign policy that sold Poland down the river here by breaking the agreement.

But I don’t think it really contributed to antagonizing Russia in any significant way though. They were jerks that you had to keep your eye on already and would have had to shield or no shield.

The reason that happened is because they had Stalin to appease. They didn't want to fight Stalin.

Much like our appeaser-in-chief today.

Kościuszko

He was like the Polish Lafayette.

it wasn't the Navy marching on to Warsaw...

Lol... True!
PennBoy 76 | 2,436  
7 Apr 2009 /  #110
Do you remember my prediction that Poland, who thinks that she is a queen, actually is a simple pawn in big game. I have told you that you american ally will sell you for penny at first opportunity. Now, when the american missle shield turned into illusion because of the money, new american president is saying that they will refuse this idea in exchenge for russian support in iran cause. What Poland has in this situation? She has spoiled relationships with mighty neighbor and american twaddle. Unfortunately Poland don't want to learn her own historical lessons.

I've said that, on this forum, a long time ago that this will happen, America only cares about her interests and uses other countries, i said Poland should relly on herself, treaties dont mean anything , we've had them many times in the past and it didn't do us any good. Like i said before, if Russia was to nuke us or invade the 200 man American personel in Poland would just pack their **** and leave, leaving us, just like in WWII. But whatever, Polands problem is, little cunts like our President Kaczynski think their bigger than they really are and want to play with the big boys, U.S, Britain, Russia, France, China etc. maybein 50 yrs when Poland is wealthy enough but not now, now it should just stay out of foreign wars, and stop lickin' Americas a**. Be on friendly terms with its European neighbors.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259  
7 Apr 2009 /  #111
Do you want my sincere advise? Learn Russin it shall be very useful soon
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
7 Apr 2009 /  #112
Do you want my sincere advise?

You asked but wasn't patient enough to wait for the response.

Learn Russin it shall be very useful soon

Honestly I don't see any prerequisites for that (you meant "Russian", didn't you?)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
7 Apr 2009 /  #114
Some Poles believe they don't do nothing else but to plan...day and night...must happening every day now...most probably with german help.....
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
7 Apr 2009 /  #115
Poland, Germany and the US are all on the same side now.
Randal 1 | 577  
7 Apr 2009 /  #116
Some Poles believe they don't do nothing else but to plan...day and night...must happening every day now...

I've kinda caught that vibe here before.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
7 Apr 2009 /  #117
Is Russia planning an invasion?

You're asking who? :))

Poland, Germany and the US are all on the same side now.

This is limned on water. This can be changed at any time.
Husaria - | 15  
7 Apr 2009 /  #119
Harry:
Yes, because the British could have done so much to prevent Poland from being occupied by the Nazis and Soviets in 1939, couldn't they?

British no, but i can see a eastward attack from the French having the potential to knock Germany out early. With a 1939 fresh German army this is still reasonably possible, fighting a two front war with a navel blockade on them would get them in the same situation as previous war... But no instead French decided to spend time to sit on there ass building defenses the Germans would bypass anyways. I remember reading accounts of the German army waiting for a inevitable attack from the west that never came and were actually suprised when it didn't happen.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
7 Apr 2009 /  #120
Yes, because the British could have done so much to prevent Poland from being occupied by the Nazis and Soviets in 1939, couldn't they?

In truth, I don;t think they could have. GB was just a paper tiger.

The german firms like BASF and EON are no stupid newbies. They have calculated that the costs for a fully newly build pipeline under the baltic see will still come much cheaper in the long run.

Sorry BBoy but satetements such asBASF and EON are no stupid newbiesis like religion, based on faith and it has little do do with costs. See, BASF will get all their money back, and then some. From the German gas buyer - you. They will cite rising costs and just watcha gonna go about it in the middle of Winter? You'll pay or freeze.

Oh, btw. the costs of the pipeline are indeed rising and not by small change.
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3142431.ece
It turns out that BASF and EON are kinda newbies after all :)

A side note, I still think the Baltic pipe was a political decision. Little to do with economics, except for a few buddies of Schröder and for Schröder himself.

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