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Poland. Sold for nothing.


joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
6 Apr 2009 /  #62
Or perhaps they were drinking brake fluid...
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
6 Apr 2009 /  #63
I really don't get this British attitude - British and French simply sold Poland short in 1939

The reason that happened is because they had Stalin to appease. They didn't want to fight Stalin. I do agree it's weird and shady and makes you wonder who were the real Bolsheviks?
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #64
Bunch my opinion is you have little knowlegde of basic facts. Or you have much more secret diplomacy knowlegde than I do. (I have very little in fact). On the say 7th 10th of September 1939 the French had some 50 divisions on the Franco-German border. And the whole of their air forces plus a bunch of British fighters. Against them stood some 15 German reserve divisions with virtually no air support. Consider. I could have well exagerated German forces and dimished those of the French.

sorry there were German fighters there but uncomparable to the whole potential of French air forces
Harry  
6 Apr 2009 /  #65
I really don't get this British attitude - British and French simply sold Poland short in 1939 - and that's just it

I have heard this times many many times and I always answer it with a simple question which has never been answered even once: exactly what could the British have done in September 1939 which they did not do.

Like blokade the harbors? Destroy the German navy? Blockade the merchant fleet? Nah you're right they couldnt do any of those:)

Attacks on the German navy and harbours started within hours of Britain declaring war. Not that those attacks would have had any effect on slowing the German advance in Poland.

And of course there is the small matter of why you expect British forces to do for Poland what Polish forces would not do. What was the majority Polish navy doing while the Nazis were invading Poland? Sailing towards the safety of British ports, that's what! In fact they fled before the first shots were fired and sailed past British navy vessels going in exactly the opposite direction. Does this mean that Poland sold Poland out?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #66
....it wasn't the Navy marching on to Warsaw...I think....
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
6 Apr 2009 /  #67
Bunch my opinion is you have little knowlegde of basic facts.

There has to be something we don't know...why didn't they do anything? Maybe it was because of Stalin?
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #68
Harry if they hadn't fled - they would be destroyed by German air force as happened to the ships that stayed - e.g Wichura, Gryf

it all happened in agreement and coordination with the Royal Navy
so it was actually a better way to use them for the common cause which Poles believed in and were devoted to.

the British could have not given their guarantees to Poles (25th of August) and then Poland would probably submit to Hitler or even changed sides

anyway may guess is British guarantees were pure cynicism
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #69
Or just stupid polish politicians..there is nothing entirely new under the sun...
Shawn_H  
6 Apr 2009 /  #70
Poland doesn't have the corner on stupid politicians. Canada has / has had it's fair share.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #71
And I think if we throw in some stupid Germans we can make a polka...
Shawn_H  
6 Apr 2009 /  #72
stupid Germans

I thought the Germans corrected that issue a few generations ago....

we can make a polka...

And some wonderful Beer drinking Music!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #73
I thought the Germans corrected that issue a few generations ago....

I fear not...stupid politicians are an undying breed!
HatefulBunch397 - | 658  
6 Apr 2009 /  #74
Does this mean that Poland sold Poland out?

No. It just means they knew all about the U boats.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Apr 2009 /  #75
....it wasn't the Navy marching on to Warsaw...I think....

Nope, it was Norwegian steel, American parts, Russian oil, all of 'em shipped by sea.

@Gumishu i'm too lazy so you can knock yourself out, and Gumishu if Germans did not care what we say or if our relations werent important to them then Steinbach would get her nomination.

And THATS responsible policies, Steinbach is starkly anti-Polish opposing Polands accesion to NATO and EU, she would be bad for our relations, in this particular case we knew better than some Germans and we excersized our leverage to avoid it.

Insulting Germans over WW2 and playing on Polish anti-German sentiments like Kaczyńscy did is NOT responsible policy, just because our voice matters doesnt matter we should be screaming like kids all the time.

So yes Germans treat us as partners, there's negative sentiment in Germany, there's one in Poland too but we're treated as partners and with Kaczyńscy we did not excercise responsible partnership ourselves.
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #76
Steinbach issue is a non-issue to me. as I have stated before. Don't care much about symbols. And yes if Germans don't have enough decency to put things in proportion, give an objective perspective then Poles should do it on their own (though the present government seems to shy away from it).

Btw Steinbach's views has largely changed in the past and I would not now demonise her. What has been played recently was quite a populistic spectacle (for a price nota bene)

I have not seen or heard any insulting of Germans by the Kaczynskis. Correct me if I am wrong. Unless stating some facts you call as insulting. And yes Kaczynskis have been defending Polish national interests (it was German press following German governmental stance who antagonised German population). The kwadrat Wuerzel thing is much more democratic in a multinational organisation and the German official sphere wouldn't just admit it for cynicism. They would play on antagonising their nation against Poles and ridiculing any Polish ideas that are against German political goals. This time the goal was to considerably strengthen German voting power in the EU as well as Franco-German alliance voting power. And the quadrat Wuerzel was in the way. Poland will lose quite a big proportion of its vote power in the Treaty of Lisbon. And yes I think Poland compromised (but perhaps not sacrificed anything) even in the face of blackmail.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #77
I have not seen or heard any insulting of Germans by the Kaczynskis. Correct me if I am wrong.

spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490994,00.html

In a radio interview, Poland's prime minister issues an ominous warning about Berlin, implying that contemprorary Germany is comparable to the time that saw Adolf Hitler rise to power.

How 'bout that?

(it was German press following German governmental stance who antagonised German population).

Is that so...

spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,490795,00.html

The kwadrat Wuerzel thing is much more democratic in a multinational organisation and the German official sphere wouldn't just admit it for cynicism.

How so?

Should all countries now calculate their real populations if there hadn't been any wars or would only Poland be allowed too?

Bring it on...Germany once lost 1/3 of her population during the 30 years war...can't wait....

They would play on antagonising their nation against Poles and ridiculing any Polish ideas that are against German political goals.

Any links for that?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
6 Apr 2009 /  #78
Steinbach issue is a non-issue to me.

It shows that Germans treat us as partners (contrary to what you say) and what we say actually matters.

I have not seen or heard any insulting of Germans by the Kaczynskis.

So i take it you dont have tv or buy newspapers?

Correct me if I am wrong.

I'm correcting you, you're wrong:
rmf.fm/fakty/?from=rss&id=122274
and thats just one example.

Kaczyński openly says "we're not going to build partnership with Germany" what kind of a thing is that for a Prime Minister to say? How is it justified?
Shawn_H  
6 Apr 2009 /  #79
stupid politicians are an undying breed!

I think there is something in the air of the houses of parliament / halls of power that makes them stupid. I really don't think they start stupid.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #80
Kaczyński openly says "we're not going to build partnership with Germany"

Yeah...and then blaming the Germans for it!
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #81
sorry Bratwurst it is very difficult to discuss with you cause you don't stick to the topic.
quite often

quadrat Wuerzel has nothing to do with the pre-war populations - it is simply a way more democratic thing for voting powers of multinational assemblies where population is a factor and the nations involved are of varying numbers.

the war losses in population are a different thing (and I do not raise it)

btw you are just ridiculing the ideas as your press did

Sokrates - concession in a non-issue is not a concession
(btw following your logic if Germans were treating us as partners they would not appoint Mrs Steinbach in the first place and Poland would participate in the project considerably (would have a say) - if anyone doubts in Polish historians' honesty they have not read any books about post war expulsions in Polish)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #82
sorry Bratwurst it is very difficult to discuss with you cause you don't stick to the topic.
quite often

Yeah...facts...how inconvenient....

it is simply a way more democratic thing for voting powers of multinational assemblies where population is a factor and the nations involved are of varying numbers.

Do you think it democratic if a country of about 30 millions has the same say as a country of about 80 Millions?

Poland under the Kartoffel twins not only want the same say as the Germans, they even want to have more say...regardless that their population is much lower and that they are net beneficiaries not contributors yet...

Do you think that is fair and democratic?

btw you are just ridiculing the ideas as your press did

Well..I say it as it is...and most European saw it and yes, it was thought as a calculation to strenghten the numbers of the Poles...it was meant that way by your Kaczinsky!

If you get ridiculed about that...well...don't blame the Germans!

How about you start looking in the mirror and not blaming every polish wart on the Germans? Just an idea....
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
6 Apr 2009 /  #83
Having dissed PiS elsewhere, I think it is time to diss PO. Tusk sold Poland down the river, quite a few Poles think so too. One thing Kaczyński had was principles and he strung the deliberations out much longer until he got what he thought was a satisfactory position. I think he has a better nose for such deals.

Tusk is patriotic when it comes to football but it's more questionable in other areas.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #84
Tusk sold Poland down the river,

How so?

One thing Kaczyński had was principles

Do you want them and their principles back?
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #85
you don't see things in perspective
there are more countries in the picture - simple comparison of Polish vote power and the German one (Nice style is misleading).

now for a moment say we have a union of Germany, Poland and Czech Republic and we have those population proportional vote power in the union.

Who is then ruling the union and why? Why should Germans tell Poles and Czechs what their policies should be like? If there have to be common policies implemented should Poles and Czechs have no say? Should there not be a compromise of some sort?

My view is Germany, France plus Italy are now quite overpowered in their say in the Lisbon Treaty thing. Who have insisted on the Treaty? Germany. Who blackmails the Irish? Mr Sarkozy does. Hegemony of some is not a way of diminishing tension, quite on the contrary. This will pop up sooner or later. I don't see much goodwill on the side of German authorities in this issue. And it fits a bigger picture too.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #86
Did you ever read the treaty?

Why should Germans tell Poles and Czechs what their policies should be like?

Do you have any idea about how the democratic process works in the EU???

I doubt you have any idea at all...
You are only great in demanding...what are you giving back?
I tell you what...you want german money and german support, the EU has to jump if Warsaw whistles, especially when it goes against Russia because only Poland knows best how to handle the "beasts"...everything else is a conspiracy to betray Poland again, right? Riiiiiight!

That's your bigger picture...

And it fits a bigger picture too.

If you are so unhappy...what is holding you? Don't let door hurt your back...
gumishu 12 | 6,071  
6 Apr 2009 /  #87
actually I am quite happy to trample on your toes :P

and yes the guy clearly has some Polish/Warsaw obsession
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #88
actually I am quite happy to trample on your toes :P

And that's what will get you and Poland nowhere in the long run.
To reach your goals, to make an positive impression you need to be constructive.
Just centering your policy around "trampling on toes" isn't going to cut it...

and yes the guy clearly has some Polish/Warsaw obsession

Well it wasn't me posting unsupported stuff about some conspiracy and hidden secret goals and machinations about the big bad neighbour.
When I'm asking for proof or bring evidence to the contrary don't call me "obsessed".
But plain facts are the death of every conspiracy theory, aren't they...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
6 Apr 2009 /  #89
BB, Kaczyński saw through nonsense. I'm not a fan of his but he had the balls to stand up to Russia, the EU and America. He was a little too uncompromising but he was firm.

Tusk waltzes into things without providing justifications to the people.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,969  
6 Apr 2009 /  #90
Give me more than just empty speeches Seanie...an example would be nice.
Till now you are not very convincing as the Kaczinskies were the biggest bullsh*itter of them all!

PS: Behind the NATO there are no balls needed to "stand up" to a non-interested Russia.
And antagonizing Russia, the EU AND the US is maybe a sign of balls but a politician should better have a brain!

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