Poland. Sold for nothing.

There was an embargo that Kaczyński fought over against Russia and he had the support of the people. He also stalled on the missile shield, biding his time for extracting concessions and a better deal.

As I said, I am not a major fan by any stretch.

btw Georgia was a Russian satelite not that long ago (Shevardnadze presidency)

and then popular revolt turned it into the opposite direction

any ideas why???

Because US paid for the revolt.I doubt very much about all these coloured revolts.

Was it because of the US or did they not want to be a part of Russia?

We'll see what you gonna say when Turkey join the EU, heh

BTW: Country of 6 million people - Ireland - paralyzed ( or I would rather say: healed :-]) the whole European Common.

Well...when you are shitting your pants because of Germany already I can't wait how you will handle a less generous but a much more assertive and self centered Turkey who won't be as willing to compromise with you and take your ****.

I can't actually wait to see your faces when the Turks are telling you directly where to shove it!

To bad it would be the death of the EU...but then...there are the core countries who already believe the enlargement was a wrong step anyhow.

We will then just pack our things and build a new union...be happy with the Turkey!

Who needs whom! Heh


Yeah...imagine that...the big bad beasts allow a tiny wart to control and out vote them...isn't that a clear sign of the franco-german conspiracy to overlord all of Europe soon?

HOW HORRIBLE!

And I bet Poland in the place of Germany would never had allowed such a thing to happen...

Turkey's the new gateway to the world. Our president was just there reassuring Islam the US will never be at war with it.

He just tries to be nice...:)

isn't it eyebrow-raising that there is so much pressure on Ireland to conform???

is there no pressure on Polish president to sign the Treaty so that Ireland can be blackmailed even more bluntly?

what sort of compromise attitude and goodwill is it?

and who's goal is it supposed to further?

how do you imagine one common foreign EU policy when you seem to lead a policy of appeasement of a country several EU countries are affraid of?

what kind of honesty is it to propose a European Treaty that just is European Constitution in disguise (the constitution that has been rejected in popular votes here and there)

if you don't see cynicism there then I can't imagine where are you able to see any

Well...aren't you excercising pressure too to get what you want? Steinberg, pipeline, voting rights etc???
Is it only allowed for Poland???

Did Germany threaten Ireland? Did they punish them afterwards? Did they throw them out? Ireland profited for years from EU-money..
BUT NOT ONE BAD WORD from us...we have accepted their decision even if many were not happy!
Compare that to Polish tantrums whenever something is percieved as not going their way...

Get a grip man! I really wish you won't get ever in a worse union as you are right now....


With you? None at all...
As long Poles like you call their lone goal in diplomacy to "treat on toes" there will nothing worthwile develop!
You are just not constructive...

And what is wrong with a European Constitution?
This Union is now so large we need some kind of common rule book. And I bet you never ever read it...
What exactly is your beef with this treaty? Which passages do you don't like?

Ha, here is the problem what is better:
- man with great balls and firm but not cunny, or
- man with smaller balls, not very firm but at least a little cunny?

I don't know, but it turned out that in first case on global scale this great balls were peanuts, and in the second this cunny fox turned out to be weasel... Internally this firm man just pissed people off, this not firm at least didn't put his finger where it didn't belong...

So we are looking for a new, better balanced leader but in the meantime for me as long as Tusk don't let to print money (as Kaczynski would like to) I will vote for him. In fact external affairs has a little meaning during slow down... In fact nobody in Poland cares about this shield much now (except people near Slupsk) ...

There are some looming threats raised towards Ireland. Ask Irish people..

The pipeline thing again - what is the difference to German customer if the gas comes through a land pipeline or a submarine pipeline. Why Germans (authorities and poeple brainwashed by media) insist on the submarine one? Is it really of vital importance to Germany that the gas should be delivered on the sea bottom? Why is that so?

Poland has been put under enormous pressure to abandon the square root proposal. Was there any serious intention to discuss it on the German and French side? Not for a moment. It has been ridiculed and Poland called names all around the place. The reason?

Was there any discussion at all about the shape of the new treaty? Or was it somehow by chance designed by some without much asking around, then put into media curricullum, advertised as the best sell and then attempt has been made to push everyone to accept it or they are un-European somehow?

As for Mrs Steinbach issue (the recent one) - it was a Pyrrhic victory in a non-issue. (a symbolic rubbish) (my guess it was a populist stunt by the present government who need to show they have spine - I doubt if they have)

btw I am not aware of any serious matters being by Polish side raised if Mrs Steinbach should be appointed notwithstanding. It's not there haven't been any but not aware of it. Just a shouting and spitting grandad. Who btw has called me cattle once. So I have little sympathy for him and his apparent victories.

I was talking about myself when I wrote I just love to tread on your toes. You do to assume too much.

Turkey gonna be an excellent counterbalance I the EU :-].
And I bet you are shitting your pants already (when I say you, I mean you - a self obsessed Ossi - not a whole German nation that you imagine you represent :-])

Turkey is not a threat to Poland. Turkey is a threat (less power) to EU so called hard-core:
France and Germany.

Great Britain remains a strong supporter of Turkish EU membership:
euractiv.com/en/enlargement/eu-turkey-relations/article-129678

Besides, it wasn't Poland's idea (we weren't EU members yet) to give a Turkey a special status :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union-Turkey_Customs_Union

and after that (Helsinki 1999) a status of a candidate country (same link).


I would say that eurocrats overlooked that obstacle (that's why there in an idea to repeat the voting as many times as needed to accept a constitution in a referendum - of course once accepted there would be no reason to repeat it ;-])

Which ones?
You seem to know all about it...tell me....


We (not only Germany but several other western European countries)need much more energy in the future as the demand always grows.
What's wrong with investing in new modern pipelines without having to pay a middle man?
And why do you care???


What pressure?

Better Poland had searched for likeminded countries and build alliances to bring their point across. In the end it seemed Poland was all alone and had to cave in against a strong majority (NOT only Germany and France btw).


That's the way a union works btw...sometimes you win, sometimes you lose..you don't get always what you want, Germany neither (treaty).


Yes there was...and everyone can read it and make himself an image...but somehow I doubt most of the opponents did that because many problems people like you have with the EU are explicitely ruled in this treaty, giving you security and a law against abuse and more rights...but you couldn't be arsed, couldn't you.

Germany wants the treat so it must be bad by nature!


Says you...

Your square root wouldn't had worked anyhow...

economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/10/andrew-gelman-w.html

If the gas from the submarine pipeline is more expensive then the one from a land pipeline after transit fees what is the goal of building the submarine one? An economic one???

I don't buy if you state now it is gonna be cheaper. Count the interesests on capital used to build the submarine one.
You need much more energy ok you can build a pipeline through Poland, Lithuania and Latvia. Lots of them in fact. One for the tenth of the submarine pipeline worth. We're gonna cooperate happily. Any obstacles in your sight?? Russians you say? Oh yes Russians not Poles.

The Treaty is not bad because it is proposed by Germany but because it shifts balances severely. Calls for unity where there was not enough goodwill before to create one. (So implies forced unity)

My beef with treaty is EU president, EU foreing ministry and similar. I see it as a way to impose policies on smaller countries.


in Polish we say deptać komuś po odciskach


Ok, you did not assume too much. You have simply not understood.

Never heard of any Polish politician stating our policies are to 'tread on one's toes'.

And there has not been much strife for the sake of strife on Polish side (if any) - maybe contrary to what you would like to believe.

I was not saying about policies, just my attitudes and yours.

Will read the article someday - curious if you have read it yourself.

The german firms like BASF and EON are no stupid newbies. They have calculated that the costs for a fully newly build pipeline under the baltic see will still come much cheaper in the long run.

Believe me they are private profit oriented people there....no ideologues!

The Ukraine is a good example...we are dependent on them right now and what does it gets us? Uncertainty the moment the winter comes and if we want functioning pipelines we even have to pay for the repair ourselves...thank you very much!


I actually don't see a great chance to ever get all EU countries to agree to the same policies...some just don't want to.

But that would be cool for an EU before the enlargement...that would had worked well.
It speaks alot for another Union...a smaller one...

I don't see any point of discussing with you any further.

It's no discussing...you are throwing your paranoia around, nothing more!

Of course Obama was going to say that to his homie brothas.


Right.
Poland would have been stupid to turn down the US’s offer. Once in place the shield could have served a number of purposes, both current and unseen in the future.

Make no mistake, it was the current US administration with its domestic overspending agenda and appeasing foreign policy that sold Poland down the river here by breaking the agreement.

But I don’t think it really contributed to antagonizing Russia in any significant way though. They were jerks that you had to keep your eye on already and would have had to shield or no shield.


Much like our appeaser-in-chief today.


He was like the Polish Lafayette.


Lol... True!

I've said that, on this forum, a long time ago that this will happen, America only cares about her interests and uses other countries, i said Poland should relly on herself, treaties dont mean anything , we've had them many times in the past and it didn't do us any good. Like i said before, if Russia was to nuke us or invade the 200 man American personel in Poland would just pack their **** and leave, leaving us, just like in WWII. But whatever, Polands problem is, little cunts like our President Kaczynski think their bigger than they really are and want to play with the big boys, U.S, Britain, Russia, France, China etc. maybein 50 yrs when Poland is wealthy enough but not now, now it should just stay out of foreign wars, and stop lickin' Americas a**. Be on friendly terms with its European neighbors.

Do you want my sincere advise? Learn Russin it shall be very useful soon

You asked but wasn't patient enough to wait for the response.


Honestly I don't see any prerequisites for that (you meant "Russian", didn't you?)

Is Russia planning an invasion?

Some Poles believe they don't do nothing else but to plan...day and night...must happening every day now...most probably with german help.....

Poland, Germany and the US are all on the same side now.

I've kinda caught that vibe here before.

You're asking who? :))


This is limned on water. This can be changed at any time.

I used to joke about Russia joining NATO too ;)

British no, but i can see a eastward attack from the French having the potential to knock Germany out early. With a 1939 fresh German army this is still reasonably possible, fighting a two front war with a navel blockade on them would get them in the same situation as previous war... But no instead French decided to spend time to sit on there ass building defenses the Germans would bypass anyways. I remember reading accounts of the German army waiting for a inevitable attack from the west that never came and were actually suprised when it didn't happen.

In truth, I don;t think they could have. GB was just a paper tiger.


Sorry BBoy but satetements such asBASF and EON are no stupid newbiesis like religion, based on faith and it has little do do with costs. See, BASF will get all their money back, and then some. From the German gas buyer - you. They will cite rising costs and just watcha gonna go about it in the middle of Winter? You'll pay or freeze.

Oh, btw. the costs of the pipeline are indeed rising and not by small change.
business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/natural_resources/article3142431.ece
It turns out that BASF and EON are kinda newbies after all :)

A side note, I still think the Baltic pipe was a political decision. Little to do with economics, except for a few buddies of Schröder and for Schröder himself.