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Poland Remembers start of WW2


Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,790  
11 Sep 2009 /  #181
Comparing the eastern and western fronts are apples and oranges.

Well...it was YOU, our board idiot, who started to compare the Battle of France with the epic battles of Bagration.
But an admission at last is better than nothing..

Quit promoting the myth that the French just left their weapons and ran to London/Vichy

No myth...

There are many examples where the French inflicted tremendous causalities on the overconfident Germans.

No there weren't...are you french Babi?

Btw. what are you doing between the many days of question and answer?
Searching for something to say???
southern 74 | 7,074  
11 Sep 2009 /  #182
:
There are many examples where the French inflicted tremendous causalities on the overconfident Germans

Yes,the french mosquitoes.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,173  
12 Sep 2009 /  #183
No myth...

Yes a myth!
Most French soldiers who were near Belgium seeing Germans were... recruits yes and as allmost any recruit allmost having no training and having rest of his nations thinking "We shouldn't die" then what do you think he thinks whne he see a German Panzer?!

Optimisticly: Shoot some shots and understands that it is basically no sense fighting it
Pessimisticly: Finds a German uniform and get starting by taking French priosoners
Realisticly: Runs like hell

As you see only the pessimistic one is with a white flag.

Most French soldiers retreated when they could while some surrendered and even fewer was still fighting.

The German advance forced the French to change their positions while many times beeing surrounded. The myth of French people with a white flag can mostly be taken from Petain's surrender and the prisoners taken by Rommel (Even tho it isn't much considered as a fact of what he wrote but more of a heroic telling)

As I think you know I am no Frenchman, I don't feel so anti-French when it comes to the WW2. Thinking of WW1 and their later actions covers the 1940 event a bit.
Ogorki - | 114  
14 Sep 2009 /  #184
You are completely right: I did not know that. And why did I not know it? Because it never f*cking happened. You are very simply lying when you claim that it did. I would be very surprised if you could even supply the date of the first British raid on a German city.

I was responding to what Shelley said. I'm not blaming the Brits for the Polish deaths! The bombing had to happen.

No - you didn't know about it because you are ignorant.
Sorry - it was actully 40,000 Poles killed - maybe more.

It's called the Massacre at Wola (1944) - a district in Warsaw.

Also In 1944 Bomber Harris was doing Hamburg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II

' streets burst into flame, and most of the casualties (40,000) caused by Operation Gomorrah happened on this night (many killed were in shelters)'.

Ooooh - theres that 40,000 number again

At the same time Warsaw was uprising. The Germans were fighting the uprising Poles and amongst the chaos - were killing women and children - why? Here it is from the people that were there...

warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm

(How Wola Civilians Were Murdered) section

'There was no doubt about our fate. A woman asked where they were taking us. The answer was: "German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die". They regrouped us, separating a group of 70 people, who were sent over the bridge towards a hill.'

And where were German women and children dying at this time?
GIVE YOU ONE FREEKING GUESS!

Harry my friend. We were not there. History is f**ked up. What you know is what you have been told. In school they told you Poles attcked tanks on horseback.

So what do you expect. Take it from the people that were there.

Please quote the part of the relevent treaty which the British did not keep to. I've asked countless Poles to do this and not even a single one ever has, but I thought I'd ask you anyway.

I don't have access to top secret military documents:) Neither do you because they probably were not released. It is common knowledge that Britain and France agreed to go to war if Poland was invaded. The exact details are not known for the reason I mentioned.

All we can do is put together the evidence and cross ref:

A quote: greathistory.com/deadly-eagles-the-polish-air-force-in-1939.htm /comment-page-1

"Certainly the Poles lost the war, and there really was never any doubt, given that their high command based their defensive positions with two incorrect assumptions - the invasion of Germany in the west by France, and the non-intervention of Russia from the east.

The Poles deployed most of their army in positions unsuitable (or at least, less suitable) for a defense of their own country, but close to jump off positions to support the French."

Maybe the whole Polish nation was dellusional?! They JUST made up this idea that France (and therefore UK) would invade from west. LOL!

Yes to support the French. Quotes like this crop up all over the place. France is implicated and Britain was to act with France. They were bound together to go to war.

THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT READY OR DIDN'T WANT TO IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

The above quote also support what I said in my last post. Happy reading.

Hitler was not "a comin". Read Mein Kampf, pay attention to the stage-by-stage plan it contains:

Ye - but obviously Churchill thought otherwise. LOL

"I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many long months of toil and struggle"

"Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their Finest Hour.'"


"We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender..."

(or...are you implying that Churchill knew that Hitler had no intention of Invading?)

WTF! So you think that Mein Kampf reflects history? History is what happened. Mein Kampf is the dream of a fruitcake.

But why should we expect a Pole to talk about what actually happened in history?

Because they obviously know, have experienced and contributed to History - with honour. Remember that word. Honour? Sorry I've probably lost you there.

Ogorki:
Just one example - Poles have been asked specifically to do a renovation job here where I work because it has been done twice before by (whoever) and f**ked up. Why - because they get the job done.
Poles fcuking up jobs, ha. Thats the story of my life.

They cant even write on a packaged product without fcuking it up.

You misunderstand. I'm saying that Poles were asked to do the job because they
can do a GOOD job. Read again carefully.

Well! This is Polish Forums? Isnt it?
Harry  
14 Sep 2009 /  #185
Sorry - it was actully 40,000 Poles killed - maybe more.

Another Pole who lies about history, just what this forum needed.

Here's the problem with your idiotic lie Ogorki: Operation Gomorrah finished on 3 August 1943 (as can be seen by clicking on the link you so helpfully provided). The Wola massacre took place on 5 to 8 August 1944. Why did the Germans wait more than a year before they took revenge for the British bombing? They could have done it anytime from July 1943.

At the same time Warsaw was uprising. The Germans were fighting the uprising Poles and amongst the chaos - were killing women and children - why?

Because they were following to the letter Hitler's directive, which was passed on by Himmler, to liquidate the population of Warsaw without regard to gender or age.

Harry my friend. We were not there. History is f**ked up. What you know is what you have been told. In school they told you Poles attcked tanks on horseback.

I'm not your friend and never will be: I have no tolerance for liars. My knowledge of history is based on what I have found out. If I listened to what I was told, I'd believe that the 1944 Wola massacre was caused by British bombing of Germany in July 1943.

And no we were not told at school that Poles attacked tanks on horseback.

Harry:
Please quote the document in which the British gave a commitment to invade Germany within two weeks. Good luck finding it: it doesn't exist.

Please quote the part of the relevent treaty which the British did not keep to. I've asked countless Poles to do this and not even a single one ever has, but I thought I'd ask you anyway.


I don't have access to top secret military documents:) Neither do you because they probably were not released. It is common knowledge that Britain and France agreed to go to war if Poland was invaded. The exact details are not known for the reason I mentioned.
All we can do is put together the evidence and cross ref:

You have access to all the treaties (which were and always have been public documents) and to the vast majority of the briefing papers from the British government (which have been released under the 50-year rule). You also have access to records regarding military deployment, which is how we know all the details found at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_order_of_battle_(1940) But it's simply far easier for you to lie about your access and to lie about what the British promised to do.

Certainly ... the invasion of Germany in the west by France ... positions to support the French. ... that France ... would invade from west. ... France is implicated

You are aware that France and Britain are not the same country, aren't you?

They were bound together to go to war.
THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NOT READY OR DIDN'T WANT TO IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

Here's the point: the British did go to war and they precisely fulfilled their obligations under the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland signed in London on 25 August 1939. Try to find any part of the treaty which the British did not observe to the letter.

Harry:
Hitler was not "a comin". Read Mein Kampf, pay attention to the stage-by-stage plan it contains:

Ye - but obviously Churchill thought otherwise. LOL

Churchill was one of the main reasons that Britain was still at war with Germany in 1942.

WTF! So you think that Mein Kampf reflects history? History is what happened. Mein Kampf is the dream of a fruitcake.

Did I say that Mein Kampf reflects history? No, your statement that I did is just another lie. Mein Kampf reflects what Hitler wanted for the world, not what actually happened.

Because they obviously know, have experienced and contributed to History - with honour. Remember that word. Honour? Sorry I've probably lost you there.

Honour? You mean stabbing one's allies in the back, stealing half their country and then locking them up in internment and concentration camps? That is what Poland did. Honour as in twice within the last 71 years invading a neighbour which as too weak to defend itself? That is what Poland did. Honour as in operating concentration camps until 1956? That is what Poland did. Do tell me about this 'honour' you speak of.
Ogorki - | 114  
15 Sep 2009 /  #186
If I listened to what I was told, I'd believe that the 1944 Wola massacre was caused by British bombing of Germany in July 1943.

'There was no doubt about our fate. A woman asked where they were taking us. The answer was: "German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die". They regrouped us...'

"German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die".

"German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die".

"German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die".

warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities4.htm

Notice he says "owing to you" - "you" being the Poles. The Poles were allies with the British.The Poles agree that German cities shouild have been bombed. They do not blame the British. This was the Polish sacrifice for the allies doing the right thing. The Poles were being killed by frustrated Germans because of their continuing resistance - not only revenge for bombings. It was not only the Wola Massacre, Mokotow 8,000 people - every street corner in Warsaw 1,000 here, 800 there, 1,800 over there... the Wola Massacre was only part of the whole picture.

Again this was a response to

ShelleyS:
So we can have some ignorant turd say, we owe them nothing, they did nothing...

Noone actually said "they did nothing".

Because they were following to the letter Hitler's directive, which was passed on by Himmler, to liquidate the population of Warsaw without regard to gender or age.

So when the uprising ended days later, why did Hitler order for the population to be evacuated and for the remains of the city to be destroyed?

During the Massacre german generals ordered the frenzied killing to stop becuase
they were wasting bullets - but many continued
WOULD THESE GERMAN GENERALS DARE DISSOBEY AN ORDER FROM THE FUHRER???

They only really stopped when they realised to possibilty of impending War Crimes.

Harry - my friend (it's a figure of speech)

the fact that you have avoided the most important part - the eye witness statements from the actual event - shows that you have no answer. NO ANSWER.

My knowledge of history is based on what I have found out. If I listened to what I was told,

so how did you "FIND OUT" ?

What you find out is based on witnesses and people who were actually there. If they were not there they have to rely on notes written by people who were there. After that you have to base your own conclusion based on the evidence - or guess.

You have provided no evidence - only your own bias opinions.

I have not brought my family into this. If I was to tell you what my grandfather told me - you would never stop throwing up. However that is private. You will never know. How lucky you are.

If you wish to dismiss eye witness statements then you are not worth talking to.
Throught mankind - crimes and cases have been resloved through eye witness statements.
You have to take these into account otherwise - what else do you have?


Here's the problem with your idiotic lie Ogorki: Operation Gomorrah finished on 3 August 1943 (as can be seen by clicking on the link you so helpfully provided). The Wola massacre took place on 5 to 8 August 1944. Why did the Germans wait more than a year before they took revenge for the British bombing? They could have done it anytime from July 1943.

Germany was being bombed by allies right up until Dresden in early 1945. The fact that German cities were being bombed before Wola massacre is enough to justify revenge.

They could have done it anytime from July 1943.

The warsaw uprising was a fine smoke screen to hide the massacre. War crimes looming remember

The American soldiers fighting through France and Germany talked about fanatic German troops who faught to the end becuase they had lost family in allied bombing during battle of bulge etc and had nothing to live for.

And no we were not told at school that Poles attacked tanks on horseback.

But that's what you "FOUND OUT" and thought isn't it?

Here's the point: the British did go to war and they precisely fulfilled their obligations under the Agreement of Mutual Assistance between the United Kingdom and Poland signed in London on 25 August 1939. Try to find any part of the treaty which the British did not observe to the letter

ARTICLE I.
Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power.


Can you define "at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power"

So how did they fulfill this agreement?
A typical legal document which can be interpreted any which way.

What do you have on the French agreement - who had the largest land army on the planet?

Honour? You mean stabbing one's allies in the back, stealing half their country and then locking them up in internment and concentration camps? That is what Poland did. Honour as in twice within the last 71 years invading a neighbour which as too weak to defend itself? That is what Poland did. Honour as in operating concentration camps until 1956? That is what Poland did. Do tell me about this 'honour' you speak of.

What country is this? I'd like to wipe the floor with you again.
Harry  
15 Sep 2009 /  #187
'There was no doubt about our fate. A woman asked where they were taking us. The answer was: "German women and children are dying owing to you, so you must also die". They regrouped us...'

So we can either believe second-hand hearsay supposedly heard from a common soldier who may or may not have been given any information by his superiors or we can believe direct orders from Hitler. Face facts: you thought you could get away with lying about history and you got caught. It's no surprise: you are Polish and Poles often have the unfortunate habit of lying about historical facts.

So when the uprising ended days later, why did Hitler order for the population to be evacuated and for the remains of the city to be destroyed?

Could perhaps it be that the terms of the surrender stated that the civilian population would be evacuated and the insurgents sent to PoW camps. Oh yes, the terms of the surrender did state that.

The warsaw uprising was a fine smoke screen to hide the massacre.

Thanks for giving me the best laugh of the day! The Nazis were happy to kill six million people in the holocaust but they needed a smoke-screen behind which to kill 40,000 Poles. That is absolutely priceless!

The fact that German cities were being bombed before Wola massacre is enough to justify revenge.

In your mind perhaps it does. In my mind nothing could ever justify the Wola massacre and I have pity for you that you think anything could ever justify the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

So perhaps you could be so kind as to state the ways in which Britain did not give all the support and assistance in its power? Of course you will not give any, Poles never do.

But that's what you "FOUND OUT" and thought isn't it?

Thank you for telling me what I thought. As a matter of facts you are wrong. But then you are no doubt well used to being wrong. And to lying.

What do you have on the French agreement - who had the largest land army on the planet?

I care little for the French army of 1939 or the Franco-Polish treaty of 1939.

Harry:
Honour? You mean stabbing one's allies in the back, stealing half their country and then locking them up in internment and concentration camps? That is what Poland did. Honour as in twice within the last 71 years invading a neighbour which as too weak to defend itself? That is what Poland did. Honour as in operating concentration camps until 1956? That is what Poland did. Do tell me about this 'honour' you speak of.


What country is this? I'd like to wipe the floor with you again.

Some historical facts for you:
- Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back with the 1921 Treaty of Riga and sold Ukraine to the Soviets.
- Poland invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938 and again in 1968.
- Poland ran concentration camps until 1956.

No doubt you will cough and splutter and make wild and fantastic claims and offer endless excuses. But the facts still remain: Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back with the 1921 Treaty of Riga, stole half the country, sold Ukraine to the Soviets and locked her allies in internment and concentration camps; Poland invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938 and again in 1968; Poland ran concentration camps until 1956.
SeanBM 35 | 5,806  
15 Sep 2009 /  #188
you are Polish and Poles often have

You may be so pathetic that you have to define people by where thier parents had sex. No, cancel that: you clearly are so pathetic that you have to define others by where thier parents had sex, but not everybody is as pathetic as you.
Harry  
15 Sep 2009 /  #189
In this case it is not a question of where their parents had sex. Look at the Plastic Poles and you'll see that they are at least as likely and probably more likely to lie about history than proper Poles.

Or would you like to try and claim that Poles do not often have the unfortunate habit of lying about historical facts? I somehow doubt that even you would like to take such a foolish position.

Wit, intelligence and knowledge are not a prerequisite.

As opposed to a group of Poles discussing history: ability to lie about facts is most certainly an advantage.

I note that you have not yet made any apology to the disgraceful way in which your country treated handicapped Polish veterans after WWII: they were forced to become slaves but you can't say even a word of apology for that. Have you no shame?
Bzibzioh  
15 Sep 2009 /  #190
I note that you have not yet made any apology to the disgraceful way in which your country treated handicapped Polish veterans after WWII: they were forced to become slaves but you can't say even a word of apology for that.

Err, why would a Pole apologize for what Canadian Gov did to Polish veterans again?

And BTW: did you find documents stating that this is entirely impossible already? I'm waiting.
Harry  
15 Sep 2009 /  #191
Err, why would a Pole apologize for what Canadian Gov did to Polish veterans again?

You are Canadian. You choose to live in Canada. If you were properly Polish you would not choose to live in a foreign land.

ahh so youre Australian then, why comment on the recent British Ashes victory to Ozdan in a triumphant manner as if you were a Brit? The mind boggles..

Yes, I can see why you might get somewhat confused. I would most certainly not call myself Australian. And I certainly did not celebrate the British Ashes victory. I celebrated the victory of the England and Wales team because I support that team. But do note that supporting that team does make me English or Welsh or English and Welsh.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that a person is a person and not a nationality?
Bzibzioh  
15 Sep 2009 /  #192
You are Canadian. You choose to live in Canada. If you were properly Polish you would not choose to live in a foreign land.

No, Harry, I'm Polish. I live in Canada. The same way you are whatever-the-hell-you-are but living in Poland; it does NOT make you a Pole. Even a plastic one.
Harry  
15 Sep 2009 /  #193
But yet you chose to live here in Poland.
Have you pride in Poland's achievements

Yes I do choose to live in Poland. No I don't take pride in Polish achievements. I don't feel any shame for their failures either. I'm me: I'm not a nation.
Ogorki - | 114  
15 Sep 2009 /  #194
So we can either believe second-hand hearsay supposedly heard from a common soldier who may or may not have been given any information by his superiors or we can believe direct orders from Hitler.

Heres a joke. I think if a German soldier is informed of the death of his family in a raid, it would be definitive and he'd know about it.

It's not second hand it's direct from witnesses.

It's no surprise that Hitler wanted all Poles dead.

You consistantly fail to answer my questions with evidence. On top of that you bring up completely irrelevant arguments which have nothing to do with this debate to confuse the issue and throw virbal abuse at me - because you can't debate in a reasonable manner.

Please answer:-
During the Massacre german generals ordered the frenzied killing to stop becuase
they were wasting bullets - but many continued
WOULD THESE GERMAN GENERALS DARE DISSOBEY AN ORDER FROM THE FUHRER???

Could perhaps it be that the terms of the surrender stated that the civilian population would be evacuated and the insurgents sent to PoW camps. Oh yes, the terms of the surrender did state that.

Ye because the Poles really had the Germans over a barrel - and had so much to bargain with

Thanks for giving me the best laugh of the day! The Nazis were happy to kill six million people in the holocaust but they needed a smoke-screen behind which to kill 40,000 Poles. That is absolutely priceless!

Any murders were hidden/covered up to the best of the germans ability.
So the holocaust was printed on the cover of Time magazine do you think?

In your mind perhaps it does. In my mind nothing could ever justify the Wola massacre and I have pity for you that you think anything could ever justify the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

You have twisted what I said and turned it against me because you have no real answer. You should be a politician. The Germans justified their actions becuase their own women and children were being killed in Germany. Is that so difficult to grasp. (sorry forgot who I was talking to)

So perhaps you could be so kind as to state the ways in which Britain did not give all the support and assistance in its power? Of course you will not give any, Poles never do.

They had an army didn't they.
They were allied with France (largest land army in world)
They could have motivated the French and attacked the lightly defended western
german border and engage the enemy.

The Poles were. Why couldn't they?

If not, then don't suggest support and assistance. They should have told the Poles to ride it out and that they would be there as soon as possible. (i.e when the americans arrive)

Well - they dropped leaflets.

Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back with the 1921 Treaty of Riga, stole half the country

talking about 1944, not 1921.
Since you bring it up - Ukranine was under Russian control at this point. It was not free.
The Ukrainians hated the Russians and the Poles more so.
The Ukranian leader favoured the Poles and was at that time in exile in Poland. Had no choice.

Poland wanted back what she had in 1772. This was approx half of Ukraine. Poland got only a fraction of that, amounting to approx one tenth of Ukraine. Not half.

And remember it was Lithuania which conquered Ukraine in the past. Poland joined with Lithuania to make Kingdom of Poland after.
Mucha 2 | 32  
22 Sep 2009 /  #195
For anyone interested - September 1939 reenactment in Yorkville Il, near Chicago. I'm even in a few of these :):

progressforpoland.com/gallery1/wrzesien-1939-rekonstrukcja-historyczna-yorkville-il/0
polskieradio.com/galerie/poland1939/index.html
wzgrza - | 46  
22 Sep 2009 /  #196
Or would you like to try and claim that Poles do not often have the unfortunate habit of lying about historical facts? I somehow doubt that even you would like to take such a foolish position.

Most of you lot fail to know the facts, especially when it comes to Poland during the WWII era, and in many cases upon being informed of said facts by Poles, you accuse Poles of telling lies, and trying to glorify Poland. Not the first, or the last time I have seen this.

When a Pole speaks up, and tries to point out the achievments of Poland, and looks for a bit or recognition, and states FACTS, which to the westerners are often UNPLEASANT from our side about the war, he is shot down and labeled as lieing about facts, and trying to glorify Poland. Maybe because some of these events take away from the percieved glory about our great "allies". For example a clear betrayal is constantly rationalized (a self defense mechanism) as we did all we could, and went to war because of Poland! (now projecting blame on Poland for their entry to the war, another self defense mechanism). *enter some baton accusing me of victimizing Poland* Yet everytime there is a thread about Poland and some of the great things they achieved, shortly after there is someone else trying to downplay that achievement. Or hell, even if there is a thread about the start of the war there is always some typical bloke who makes a dumb comment to instigate the topic and put Poland down, before a Pole even mentions anything about Poland and what happened there.

But yet it's fvcking ok with you lot to talk about how great the U.S and the U.K was from sunrise to sunset. Fvcking typical western double standards, God forbid anybody tries to take any of your steam away from you.

And if you are in your post refering to one individual, then kindly make that known, and avoid calling all Poles liars about history. Because in my experience if anybody is telling lies, and denying facts, and twisting history about Poland during WWII, or WWII, is your types.

And this post is not only directed towards you. But also not directed to all western types. I will not generalize like you did, as we have many friends from the west that we can come to terms and common ground with.
Mucha 2 | 32  
22 Sep 2009 /  #197
wzgrza - you are 100% absolutely correct. I could not agree more.

(with the exception of the "all western types" comment - there ARE folks here in the US who are both aware of and appreciate the Polish contribution to WW2, just want to make that clear)
wzgrza - | 46  
23 Sep 2009 /  #198
(with the exception of the "all western types" comment - there ARE folks here in the US who are both aware of and appreciate the Polish contribution to WW2, just want to make that clear)

*"But also NOT directed to all western types." :)
Mucha 2 | 32  
23 Sep 2009 /  #199
a nice article, somewhat related:

rferl.org/content/ Retired_British_General_Says_Enormous_WWII_Debt_Owed_To_Poland/1826502.html
wzgrza - | 46  
23 Sep 2009 /  #200
Nice article, thanks for posting that.

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