Poland Remembers start of WW2

Will have a look too...

You should.. that Eastern Front was the goddamn real deal. Made me forget about D-Day / Bulge I can tell you that much. These old guys are like "hey it was war, we did what we had to do". They even interviewed old Baltic women . Talk about the crazy partisans. I don't mean to glorify but just the scale of the thing was amazing. The tenacity of the two sides.

Well....preaching to the choir here....one grandpa and two granduncles...one didn't survive it.

They took the western front for R&R...

I agree, but I'm afraid some people will never learn.

I'm sorry for your loss, man. My old literature professor, Kloesel from Bonn. His dad died out there too. I could tell it bothered him even though he was an old guy and joked around most of the time.

When you grow up in the States, you don't get to hear eyewitness accounts from the other side like that and of course Hollywood only glorifys the Western Front.

This BBC doc isn't super fancy production.. it's just brutually honest and thorough in my opinion. Yeah it was barbarism mostly but that's what these guys had thrust upon them to a degree.

Thank you...and I take everything Hollywood is spewing out to a rerun in live or a third go at each other!

(I just don't have the stomach our grandparents had....I fear...)

Tribute to the fallen ones by Konstanty Ildefons Gałczyński

Pieśń o żołnierzach z Westerplatte

Kiedy się wypełniły dni
i przyszło zginąć latem,
prosto do nieba czwórkami szli
żołnierze z Westerplatte.
(A lato było piękne tego roku)

I tak śpiewali: Ach, to nic,
że tak bolały rany,
bo jakże słodko teraz iść
na te niebieskie polany.
(A na ziemi tego roku było tyle
wrzosu na bukiety)

W Gdańsku staliśmy tak jak mur,
gwiżdżąc na szwabską armatę,
teraz wznosimy się wśród chmur,
żołnierze z Westerplatte.

I śpiew słyszano taki: - By
słoneczny czas wyzyskać,
będziemy grzać się w cieple dni
na rajskich wrzosowiskach.

Lecz gdy wiatr zimny będzie dął
i smutek krążył światem,
w środek Warszawy spłyniemy w dół,
żołnierze z Westerplatte.

Song of the soldiers of Westerplatte.

When their time had come at last,
to die that summer.
They marched towards heaven four abreast,
soldiers of Westerplatte.
(Summer was lovely that year)

They sang: It’s no big thing,
this awful pain of our wounds.
How sweet it is to enter in
the heaven’s verdant plain.
(Heather had bloomed in abundance that that year
for bouquets)

In Gdańsk we stood as firm as wall,
the German guns - small matter.
Through clouds towards heaven we ascend,
soldiers of Westerplatte.

Thus this song was heard: Amidst the fields of heather,
in paradise shall ye bask
at noonday’s gentle heat,
to regain this sunny weather.

But when cold winter’s wind shall blow,
the gloom - world over.
On Warsaw’s heart shall ye descend,
soldiers of Westerplatte.

does not really change much if you ask me, it would have taken the time it took the Germans to invade Poland to build up a force big enough to attack Germany on any front. So whatever you say it does not really change much, even if the UK did make a full hearted effort to help Poland it would have been to late anyway.


Ok the first thing to say about that is the French were cowards, when the British went in to help the French, they were the ones who were surrendering all down the frontlines and leaving the BEF exposed on all sides!!!. To be honest with you the Belgians were not better either, the only force that stood up to Jerry were the British and that wasn't even in their own country at the time.

My second point is pretty simple, the British army had gone through a major 'downsizing' after WWI, therefore was in no sort of position to defend anybody at that point in time, add this to the fact the Germans were building their army while we were downsizing makes it an impossible, infeasable idea!!!.

Even when the British forces (BEF) went into france, a lot of their equipment was out dated, broken or just not given to them in the first place. To give you some sort of idea of what state the British army was in, a lot of the units were given practise rounds, which have half the gunpowder of a usual 'combat' round. However what i will say is that the weakest force in France, the British, held out the longest and were prepared to fight to the last before they were given the order to evacuate.

As for the idea of bombing raids being useless, i disagree, at the time Hitlers army was so big that they would not have had to of taken any forces from 'blitzkreig' to defend their other borders, they would have sent those troops left in Germany to those lines. Yes it would hav stretched them but it would not have given Poland anymore time, we are talking about the 2nd best war machine of all time here up against a British army that was re-arming and rebuilding at the time.


that is part of yours and many others peoples problem, you still see it as 'is' rather than 'was'

You can point all the fingers you like at the British, however you seem to miss the fact that the army forces at that time were hardly a force.


right and its all part of the past, what is the problem with looking forward instead of always looking back?? where is it going to get you?? NOWHERE


ok no dramas then, i understand that this topic is close to home for you, i think we can overlook a little over excitment :)


well everybody keeps talking about facts, how long did it take you to be invaded??? I think you'll find i can say what i like, where i like and how i like. Of course i have no problem in remembering and respecting the dead but to continually bang on about....................

Its time to look forward not backwards!!!


well actually they invaded first and then it turned into an occupation :) I think you'll find its two stages :)


did i ever say such a thing??


so now in a forum of 'facts' you want to talk hypothetically?? lol, funny where some people will go to try and make a point.


why don't you stick to pumping iron you meat head :) thats probably all your good for. You see its not great to be slagged off for having a point of view, so maybe you should think about that before doing it yourself next time. Why are you reverting to silly school boy tactics if your such a man??


Well i apologise for offending people, i have nothing wrong with respecting and remembering those who have fallen either in battle or on civi streets, what i have a problem with is this continual bleak, negative looking back on 'poor us' stuff.

I'm not being pedantic here but it wasn't all about England !

Go talk to my Grandad - he can tell the difference between a BMW ( Heinkel )and a Rolls Royce Merlin at 18000 ft - often his life depended on it. Waking up in the morning with half the street gone, seats empty at school etc,etc.

There is a lot to be said for first hand testimony to drive things home.

For example, during a tank Battle-where did the crew go for a pee ?

in their uniforms if in mid-battle, if not then they hopped out and ***** on the tank tracks :)

I was talking to one of my mates Grandad and that was the question I asked him. Apparently the inside of the tank was roasting and the pee would dry in minutes.

He also used to talk about the flakes of metal pinging off the inside, that would sting his face as bullets hit the outside of the tank. Thats the sort of first hand testimony that a lot of history books miss out on.

tornado2007


It's not only and all about the UK. The French bordered Germany and was considered a force during that time. They did nothing. Even putting the beginning of the war aside, you go to the end of the war. That is where the real betrayal happened.

As far as the French goes the French no doubt suffered from low morale. While war was raging within the country the pubs and night clubs in France were apparently full of life, with people partying as if there was no war going on. I remember reading books and reading the reactions of Polish soldiers who made their way out of Poland after it's occupation to continue fighting in France, and they were shocked by the apathy of the French towards the Germans invading their homeland... obviously not all of them. But in general.


I am no military expert, but from what I imagine bombing raids focus on factories, oil depots, even populations to frighten them, and lower morale. Usually on cities to give the enemy at least less to work with. With German troops moving about daily, by the time the bombers would arrive on sight they would have to go searching for their targets that are moving about in Poland, on top of that risking killing innocent Polish civilians, and possibly friendly fire, due to the lack of accurate reports on locations they are to bomb. The only effective bombing would be on targets within German mainland. Precision bombing did not necessarily exist back then yet.


The allied forces were a force enough to feel free enough to control the fate of soverign nations. Read Munich.. and Czechoslovakia. And make promises to come to the aid of their ally Poland should Germany attack. Hell, even during the BoB by the time the British let Polish pilots into the sky they were running low on their own, and finally had no choice but to put them to battle. Poland has plenty reason to be cold and bitter towards her "allies" on this topic, I don't think the reactions from Poles on this topic should surprise anybody who knows how events unfolded during this time. They are fully justified.

Regardless of the reason, it simply shows why Poland is hesitant to trust anybody even in todays time. The lessons from WWII are well learned I would imagine, and hope.

It is important to look back. Not only to remember the loss of life, but also with the thought that history repeats itself. And there is much to be learned by human actions in the past. Valuble lessons, on mistakes that shouldnt be made again. We study history for this reason, so we can learn off the mistakes of others, instead of making them and finding out the hard way for ourselves.

I hope not the wrong ones like moping alone in a corner.

Poland can't do anything alone if pushes come to shove....better work towards a Europe where such a question will never arise again.


How so?

I always thought that a quite useless saying!

Bratwurst Boy

Has more to do strictly with being more self-sufficient, then the country presently is, also try to assert its own interest as well, opposed to only appeasing its neighbors.

I'm not saying Poland should break away from the EU.

That isn't true. The Poles were invited to take part!

Those loyal to the government-in-exile refused to take part because the Warsaw government had been invited, and the Warsaw government pulled out at the last minute on the orders of Moscow.

terrible times! my father never talked about,a reason i no nothing of his place of birth.

I think there were a lot of things too sad and tragic to remember. In Warsaw, it's perhaps better not to know about some of the things that happened - on a cold grey Monday morning, walking down your street, it's horrible to reflect on how people in this apartment building or that hospital suffered.

they did next to nothing when their own country was invaded, how can you expect them to defend Poland?? lol


to be honest i think that sums up the whole 'French war effort' if thats what you want to call it, they tried to pretend that there was no war to fight, a lot of them didn't have the stomach for it and unfortunately the people at the top were REMF that didn't have a clue about the tactics of war.


that is correct


that is also a very good point, however for every type of bombing raid/run or whatever you want to call it there is a particular bomber. For example the Germans used Stukas dive bombers to hit precise targets and heavier bombers, such as Heinkels, to do the raids you described.

As for moving troops and transport, it is well documented through the war the effective bombing hit/stopped/effected the movement of troops, supplies and transport throughout the war.

The only point i cannot come up with an answer for is the 'civilian' aspect, that would have caused a great many headaches.


no the reaction does not surprise me but the continual 'repeat repeat repeat' does, i can fully understand the need to 'out' whatever happened but to get stuck on it is not a good thing, especially if it still effects Poland either today. (people to busy worrying about the past rather than getting on with the building up of Poland)


as far as trust and who her allies are, Poland can do what it/she likes as far as i'm concerned, that is down to the government/people of Poland.


that is a great paragraph, so why not do it, learn from the past and employ whatever you have learnt in the future. It just seems to me Poland and its people are stuck on a cattle grid and refuse to move forward.

thanks for the discussion, i know we have different views about esentially a country that is not mine but yours, i really do believe though that for Poland to grow it needs to move on.

jonni


No. The parade excluded all Polish Armed forces who served as one of the largest Allied contingents during WWII in Europe.

The famed 303rd squadron, an all Polish squadron with huge success during the Battle of Britain was the only Polish unit invited, but they turned down the invitation since it was not extended to all Polish service men.

I think you'll find the disagreement between the London Polish gov't and the Warsaw one has quite a lot to do with it.

Out of interest, were British troops and airmen invited to the formal Victory celebrations in Poland? Admittedly the parades here in Warsaw were on a different scale here for very obvious reasons, but it would be interesting to know a bit more about them. I know the British War Memorials here didn't start to appear until after the PRL ended.

Very interesting take on the situation considering what you and some Yanks say when you talk about Polish defensive war of September 39. Dose this make your achievement that much greater? You know what I'm talking about. Besides who's fault is that, prior to Italy joining Germany and Japan in the Anti-Comintern Pact you did absolutely nothing about the German takeover of Rhineland. You let Germany do whatever they wanted despite the Treaty of Versailles which you as a signatory on the winner side failed to enforce till it was too late. This pattern of failed diplomacy continued with the Chamberlain idea of peace. Not only that this lead to rapid German rearmament, but even worst, Britain was viewed as insignificant, unimportant and a pushover by the Nazi Germany. The way they saw you was that you will eventually compromise to salvage whatever was left over from your empire but in a meantime you're not significant enough of a threat for Germany to pursue her goals.

Face it the very same issues you are trying to defend here by providing those pathetic excuses was the cause for the greatest misery Britain had ever known and you as a nation paid dearly for it. I feel for you and sympathize with you but propagating this lie by giving all those excuses is not really helping your cause. The sooner you realize the blunders you have made through your diplomacy that eventually lead to this the better.

This however is not as bad as what you have done later on, (mind you not just you, Yanks are equally to blame here) during and at the end of the war without having guts to keep our government in exile in the loop sort of speak. Given the fact that it was based in Britain, we were allies mutually involved in fighting common enemy and not even a threat to each other. Despite all of this you make a back room deal effectively enslaving our nation for the next 44 years. Put yourself in my shoes and be honest, would you buy any of the crap you try to sell here?

I believe Poland is moving on. But I also see it being excluded from many history lessons outside of its own borders. It's a shame that many people when they hear Poland and WWII, they think about Poland being steamrolled in 1 months time by the Germans, and charging German tanks with calvary (which is not true).

I think and believe this popular thinking is a huge injustice to the hundreds of thousands of Poles who fought on all the wars fronts from day 1, and the millions of Poles killed and murdered in Poland during these times. After being the longest fighting and one of the hardest fighting nations for the wars duration, the nation at least deserves some respect, and recognition, since it received nothing else by the wars end.

The Battle of Britain; Monte Casino; Falaise Gap, Normandy; Warsaw Uprising, to name a few.

Nobody sane would disagree with that notion!
But the problem as I see it is that you won't get this respect when you stamp your foot at every possibility and scream loudly: "RESPECT ME BECAUSE OF WWII!"

When you even make it part of current politics or demand that others listen to your stories if they want to or not.
Also many of your once-allies are not really interested to get told about their "betrayal" every few days...

So, to get your respect you don't want to let it rest which in turn doesn't help you to make friends or to reconciliate, but rather gives you quite a bad image....a mean circle!

Ive always skipped over your posts, personally i find them extremely boring. I think the best course of action is to go back to this practice.

If youre going to make comments like the above you can expect reprisals, in my opinion you totally misunderstood McCoys point and started rambling on about somthing not called for.

I agree, and this is what I actually posted yesterday on the first page in reply to that flier somebody posted.

But if we Poles never talk about it, and never try to correct or inform others about it, who will? It will go forgotten, and will become a manipulation of history.. which it already has in many countries. No other nation is helping our cause, so we must try and spread the truth on our own, and unfortunently this is what it makes it look like. Half the time Allied nations are given credit for Polish achievements during the war, making those nations look great, but making ours look poor.

I for one will not sit quietly while some jackass somewhere goes on laughing about Polish calvary charging German tanks (the most popular one), or some other popular WWII era propaganda.

Just like Piorun said... put your own countries in Polands place, and see how you would feel about it.

After the war, all of the allied countries had something to cheer about. The war ending, back to normal life, and freedom, back to your families. This was not the case for Poles. They never had a real reason to celebrate, until 1989.

It's a myth okay....but what is so bad about it?
I never got the anger Poles seem to feel about it....it's a quite cool image!

Compare your Poland and the behavior of your people to...say....France?
They have to live now and in the future with the image as cowards and quitters!
The France campaign is called the biggest and most humiliating defeat ever (in world history).

Do you see them so agressively fighting this image???
Somehow most French don't seem to get all riled up about it and the war is not really a topic between Germans and French anymore (as far as I know that is).

you must understand one thing, they are just being themselves.

Well than, lets talk facts. GB got their arse kicked in France in 1940, in Norway in 41', Grece 41', Crete 41', Tobruk 42', Greek Islands 43'... well lets be honest torny, even together with the super powers of that time like France and USA on your side and with the help of the countries from the commonwealth you were still no match for the Gerries, so maybe it would be wise for you to step down from that high horse of yours and have just a little respect for the twenty year old country Poland was at that time that took a stand against a power that your empire had no chance with.

Because in the case of the French, the fact that they did not put up much of a fight is true. I don't believe that French being cowards is the reason for their defeat. But it is known the French did not do the best job of trying to defend their nation. Not only that, but in the end, France came out just fine, and was an independant European nation. There was no genocide, and mass murder in France. Paris was not treated as if the war was not over. People went about life in an ordinary fashion. Compare Warsaw, and Paris during the war to one another, and see the changed. You cannot comapre the two nations to one another under occupation of the Germans. The Polish culture was to be erased from the minds of the people and the earth. Our most intelligent professors and leaders were murdered, our books and arts were torched, our streets renamed to German names, our citizens murdered for being Polish. Poland was to become more room for the "Aryan race" to settle after the war. This was Hitlers image, to rid the world of the Poles. None of these events took place in Paris for example on a daily basis.

In the case of Poland, we are constantly thrown false accusations, and injustices that arent true in our face in regards to WWII. Why should we accept, and ignore being accused of doing nothing in WWII, of fighting tanks with calvary, of our airforce being destroyed on the ground without even taking off, when it is all FALSE, and like I said an injustice to anybody who fought for those 6 years.

Lets see how you would all feel about having your home country ravaged, with attempts to have it erased off the face of the earth, along with it's culture, and people. With 3 million of your citizens being murdered for being British or w.e country, including your soon to be wife. Fighting in foreign lands, under the command of foreign armies and governments, then when you finally "won" you don't even have a home, or maybe family to go back to because it was destroyed, or your family was murdered. But you decide to go back anyways, and instead of being honored as a veteran, and wartime hero, you are accused of being an enemy of the state, and a few days later you get arrested, and get sent off to Stalins Siberian gulags to die, because your "allies" didnt want to anger uncle Joe with the thought of an independant England(insert country of origin here). Hell of a victory..

Maybe the French think they liberated Paris alone in 1944.