Should rape carry a life sentence in Poland?

Yeah he suffered brain damage as a result of being beaten not raped. anyways, I never said that rape is okay, it's obviously very bad, even horrible, but not even closely comparable to murder in my opinion, and still not as bad as being severely beaten. But it is true that rape victims are often beaten, which is more unfortunate than a simple rape.

I lived in a gay neighborhood for a while where stories of rape circulated all around me, I once ran from a pack of gay men who were drunk or high and luckily escaped, when I did some modeling, I saw all these little boys getting coaxed into sexual adventures with men, and sometimes, they were raped outright - one of the reasons I quit that business. I don't wish it upon anyone, but it's often made out to be as bad as murder, which is completely off in my opinion.


Yeah ok it looks bad now that I read it again, I'm used to being a tad offbeat but I don't want to belittle the crime that is rape. My point was that there are some things in society that must be treated much worse than they actually are, in order to discourage their occurence on a large scale. And I say this because I think murder is far worse than rape.

Rape is only possible by either physical or (in the case of rape carried out by someone who knows the victim) psychological coercion or violence. Just because the result may be less physical pain than a beating, that doesn't lessen how bad it is psychologically. I can agree that it is not as serious as murder.

You still don't get it, for the victim rape is as bad as being badly beaten, the injuries are not as visible that's the only difference

I can't say what the psychological damage of being raped is, maybe it's much worse than I believe, but I remember a few girls who claimed they were raped and talked about how their life was ruined forever, and perhaps this is true, but then I've come across some men who've been raped by other men, and they're attitude was obviously not happy, but still completely different. They were talking about it the same way they would talk about a mugging or something. I wonder if it's because female rape is so often dramatized in debates and on tv etc, whereas male on male rape is far less discussed. Than again, the stoic way these guys had of dealing with what happened to them might have been specific to them, and I just happened to meet those particular characters...

Or men who have been emotionally scarred by rape are less likely to talk about it.

well I've been in a few fights, and I qualify some as better and others as worse. I've been attacked once where some guy came, wrestled me and clocked me in the face and that was that. that's much better than this other time when I was ganged up on by a bunch of kids on a school bus, I was in much more pain, and it 'traumatized' me much more. I'm not hip to how the law works, but I believe the first case is assault, and the second, was an aggravated assault, one is far worse than the other. I think something similar should apply to rape. What were are the injuries? Some victims are severely beaten and require long stays in the hospital afterwards, while some fair off 'better' and are mostly left with an awful memory.


Not the men in Chelsea (the homosexual neighborhood I lived in for a while.)

Still doesn't get it...listen, I've worked as a councellor with people who have survived rape and incest, my closest friend is a police officer trained in working with rape and incest victims. Apart from rape being physically painful, people with emotional scars don't 'fair off better' than those with physical scars.

I agree, physical scars don't reach the same level. There are opportunities for recuperation. Some victims never fully overcome their emotional scars.

Sure, there are cases where hysteria exaggerates things but u have to tread with caution in those instances.

Daisy c'mon now, mask98 has been pretty objective thus far and you're attacking him for saying what he's seen.


you can't say what it's like for anyone else to be raped but yourself (and i truly hope that has never happened to you nor will it ever), if you haven't been a victim of it then don't go trying to share in the victimhood.

So he's saying that from those he's met, the men who've been raped (by men) seem to have come across as less "traumatized" and handling it better than the women he's met who've also been raped by men.

I don't know why you can't seem to simply acknowledge his observations. So you've both seen different things, you don't see him trying to tell you that you "don't get it," do you?

There could be reasons why what he's observed might be true but unless you acknowledge anything contrary to your own experience it just remains a p!ssing contest.


I agree with you and i don't at the same time. I suppose scars are nothing if the mind chooses not to acknowledge them but i think the worse the physical scar, the more likely it is to serve as a reminder of the cause and leave a psychological imprint. If we weren't connected so much to the physical then rape wouldn't leave a psychological imprint at all, would it? But apparently it does, apparently due to a physicall invasion. What i mean to say is that on this world, i am inclined to believe the two are connected.


i missed that. No dear fellow none was intended, why do you ask?

perhaps I don't get it, i'm used to measuring things. In my family it is customary to physically punish the children when they've done something wrong. So when my mother spanked me or sometimes smacked me in the face I would cry and get over it, and go back to my little drawings, but as time went by and her life got worse, she started getting abusive, and I became shocked at the violence of her punishments which were no longer mere spankings, I ended up running away from home for good at 16, and to an extent, those more severe punishments are etched in my memory mostly for their cruelty. Sometimes my cousins reproach me for this "you shouldn't have abandoned your mother, our parents hit us too, we don't run from them" but my mother would box me in the mouth! Surely that's worse than a slap on the arm!

There's a quote by Noam Chomsky I like, where, in reference to the vietnam war he says: "By entering into the arena of argument and counter-argument....by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one's humanity".

That's how I feel about where this 'debate' is going, and in this sense, I'm on the losing side of the argument. So even though I still believe rape should not be punished as badly as murder or some cases of aggravated assault, I don't really want to argue about it anymore because I feel like this whole argument is degrading the odium of rape. Sorry for offending you Daisy, didn't mean it.

masks there is nothing "simple" about rape. You point out in your post that you yourself have never been raped, so I think it is imposable for you to judge the true extent of the damage rape does to the victim weather it be male or female. But I appreciate your views from your own personal experience with your mother.


And for everyone else who jumped on the "death penalty band waggon". If you punish someone with death and you get it wrong. It can't be rectified.


truthinjustice.org/fappiano.htm

And it has been wrong before!

Some even have fun !

Now for all you kids who say "kill for rape" what if its a 16 years old getting drunk ? What if a man does it in a drunken desperate stupor to his ex wife ?

Does it suck to be raped ? Yeah it probably does, a lot but still women move on, scarred or not they generally live on and their rapists might move on and change as well.

Now if its a repeated sex offender than its different, someone who has a sex assault history needs to be locked up for good but still it does not warrant death, i'm all for death penalty but not as revenge but a protective measure.

For example snuffing out serial killers and murders or abusers too dangerous to live but NOT revenge.

Now if i had the power of the Lord i'd put all you sad bastards who scream "DEATH 4 RAPEZ!!!!!1" in a room, gave you a pistol, a rapist and told you to shoot him otherwise you'd be given a hand grenade enema, without a pin, see how many of you loudmouths would do it.

Juggling human life on an internet board is so fracking easy.

Edited.

To be clear i believe we should slam down hard on rapists but imprison not kill.

Because you talk about the supposed sick fantasies of people who advocate capital punishment then seem to relish in the thought of pushing someone off a cliff. Seems a tad off to me, that why I wanted to make sure I was clear on you meant. Text often makes it hard to understand what one means so I wasn't sure.

and it should if that were the case. But you see good sir, you interjected the word "relish" and with it you projected an emotional aspect that simply isn't there on my part. It seems as though you read that into my original statement but that is your prejudice and perspective talking, not mine.


And on that I am in complete agreement with you sir, i hope that cleared it up for you.
edited


May I ask what, in your opinion, is the point of imprisonment, not just for rapists but in general?

Punishment should be known before crime is committed. While execution of penalty should be stripped of any emotional reactions. Vengeance is really unhealthy.


I completely agree, this is unacceptable. IMO 10-20 years of Siberian labor camp would be appropriate. I'm sure that Kremlin would be happy with such practically free labor force.

Nice to see that so many people support re-establishment of death penalty but this is not proper crime IMO.


This is not about any TV debates. You seems to deny true about obvious differences between men and women. Look, this claim fits to your observations perfectely.


I don't support death penalty for rapists, however your argument is weak. In highly civilized countries courts are extremely wary. One could also be worried about piano which might fell on him everyday.


This is not the question who is a predator. Penalty should simply be appropriate to committed crimes.


Might, I answer the question. Imprisonment is just a punishment, there should not be any deeper sense.

Well lesser, ur commentary this time was spot on. An improvement!!

I need to find sth to disagree with u on. Some of ur ideas are funny.

Of course every instance should be looked at individually.

Its also easy to talk about who would do what in a hypothetical situation. I don't see anyone trying to be a hardass so what's the point of "none of you would do this or that"? They're on here are simply stating their opinion on what they think the appropriate actions would be when dealing with rapists.

Personally, my reasons for supporting the death penalty for rapists is not an emotionally based one. First of all, I don't think a rapist (or some other types of criminals) should be free to roam. Second, I don't think the taxpayer should foot the bill to house them indefinitely. I would be open to forced labor I suppose, but how realistic is that?

Hey, there ya go, that's pretty good. here's an e-high five. *high fives lesser*
You've convinced me with that argument but the devil's advocate in me has to ask the following:
Which is more fair: a rape victim be free to choose the punishment or society? why?


what's the point of a punishment?

Society? I hope that you don't suggest that I want to organize referendum on this issue. Neither victim or society should decide, our education system is supposed to produce qualified specialists. Those who have the highest posts should decide.


The point of punishment is to inform everybody what is the consequence of certain crime. Rules should be known before game is started.

Yes u may play my role For4, LOL

Aha, so it must be highly educated people who can decide Lesser? That's a bit exclusionist, isn't it? Rape is a societal problem, why marginalise people? We all have a collective interest in snuffing it out. Yes, that's verging on socialist thinking, I agree, but it's true.

The victim may be too emotional to decide. Many educated people have made horrible decisions for education. I'd cringe at the prospect of them deciding on an issue as delicate as rape. Should I don my woolly jumper and grow my beard out Lesser? ;) I think I may qualify as an ideal candidate to pass judgement then, hehehe

If you don't want to use unique abilities that some educated people have then perhaps we should burn universities? :) If they cannot be trusted, why to waste so much cash?


Flu is even more social problem, however I'm sure that if your child would be infected you would go to ask doctor. You would not consider society to be competent enough.


I agree, you know that I oppose bureaucracy. I definitely don't consider all educated people to be smart. Standards on the universities should be higher and thus less students would be able to manage.

I see, so this education system doesn't affect the victim or society but those occupying the highest posts are best entrusted to decide what a rapist receive as "punishment." ok, that's your opinion (and a mighty conflicting one if i've interpreted you correctly) but that's not the question i posed.

The question was which of the two positions from my proposition would be more fair. One more thing regarding your reply, "the highest posts-" exactly what function does one who has "the highest post" fulfill and how does that seperate them from society?


I am having some trouble with your definition cause according to your defiinition of a punishment, after one fulfills a punishment, it would only have been to confirm the existence of the punishment. What you've written seems to be a lot like saying laws exist to inform us that they exist- what's the point of them?

So i ask you again, what's the point of a punishment, i mean, after it's been given and served or performed or inflicted or whatever, what's the point in it?

on a side note, i'm quite intoxicated right now so although i think my half drunk logic ought to further this i may be only under that assumption because quite a bit of my brain is being rendered docile and mute.

what role am i playing in your stead S-nus? devil's advocate or forum drunk?

I didn't doubt their competence above Lesser, I was merely trying to make the point that they come from one standpoint and others come from elsewhere. We need to incorporate many into the equation, not just those who have studied.

Well, doctors have a direct remedy. These so-called specialists can offer little more than a supportive family, if anything. Sorry, I'm a cynic, sceptical of what these people do. Psychologists and psychiatrists are often crackpots, they need help more than anyone else.

Please don't confuse the attaining of a remedy with a broad, open discussion on the issue of rape and the right of participation of a wide audience in a democracy.

Well For4, I was gonna say Devil's Advocate but I think I fulfil both, lol. I had 3 beers earlier too so...

i may be really thick right now but do our arguments mirror eachother cause it's getting really hard to read right now. i think i ate 1 donut and 6 perogi all day then had training and an almost depleted bottle of wine.

but i can't remember what this thread is about so i figure this post is gonna get removed. And good riddance!

edited cause i don't hate a donut, i ate a donut:)

?? I don't get it. The fact that someone may be wrongly executed is already a strong argument against the death penalty. Besides that, the death penalty seems useless, it doesn't seem to be very effective as a deterrent, and it just adds to the body count.

It seems to me that you missed my point. Only relatively small group of people have specialist education in this direction. While those occupying the highest posts shoudl be the best. Of course, I oppose politically motivated nominations.


Victim would be more justified to decide than society without any doubt.


I'm not competent enough to answer to such detailed question. They should be a specialist on these matters while society is incompetent from its nature. Only individuals can be competent.


State inform everybody that some behavior wont be tolerated. If a person ignore this then he/she will be punished. Punishment should be appreciated to committed crime. As I write earlier, there should beno deeper sense. This is my opinion.

I'm not sure it's supposed to be a deterrent but more society's way of saying "you've failed at life to the point that we have to kill cause it'll be a better place without you" i mean not you but them, y'know?

edit, this is for mask98

So in your opinion undoubted possibility that piano might fell on your head should lead us to conclusion that production of pianos should be stopped?

no didn't miss your point because i'm quite sure it doesn't exist on this note. I'll reiterate my question, are those specialists a part of society or not? if they are then my original question remains valid without need of interpretation.


Great, i'm glad you've come to a conclusion, now why is it called the justice system?


well you felt competent enough to make the statement that begged the question so i'm wondering if you were competent enough then...


so, then, according to you, if a convicted criminal receives a punishment, then after that punishment is served in whatever way, the main lesson they can then take from it all is that it's best not to get caught should they endeavor to commit another crime? Do you see how that approach might really not benefit society in the long run?

So you refuse to acknowledge that society consist from people who have different skills and capabilities? All of them have some role in the society. people are not the same.


This is justice system of the state. State is not obligated to fulfill all wet dreams any of majority or minority.


One need to know where is the end of his competences in certain areas.


This is private problem of criminal, whether change or not. I cannot interfere and nobody should unless criminal want (of course taxpayer money should not be involved). If such person would commit another serious crime then suppose he would never be free anymore. Law should be more severe to recidivists, this is practiced.