Poland's place in changing world order?

2009

Only one country in europe with gdp growt ...

It is not original thought, it was noticed by marquess de Custine as far back as the 19-th century.

So what?Polish GDP is still very low.

There was once a poster called Luke
Who often made use of a book
By producing a map
And a whole lot of crap
He quickly landed in shtook

Poland has an ever-growing GDP, southern. Where are your figures? Even in the space of a few years we saw a notable increase.

What factors change the place in the world order, southern? What would you say?

For all I care, comrade.. all of Europe can give you a smooch.

Yes but Poland was traditionaly richer country than Greece or Portugal ... and many other western countries ...

any way as for russia I hope that we have bright future :)

When was that?


Yes,because it is subsidized by heavy EU influxes.Give me money and I will grow by GDP by consuming.

Well, scrappleton, don't be too envious because of the ailing US economy and burgeoning European growth.

Poland is really benefitting from casting the net wider. They have had good trade relations with China for some time and Alex Salmond of the SNP in Scotland knows sth about the value of this. To my knowledge, they are not punting off their debts to China ;) ;)

Southern, it is true that vast funds are coming in but it's also the case of how constructively you use them. Politicians and squandering are often synonymous terms.

In Greece they use them to pay their voters.

What about Czechs ... Slovaks ... Romenians ... Hungarians and other new members ...


It was alwayws like that ... only durring imposed on Poland communism situation changed ...

Hehehe, nothing quite like voter 'confidence' in a thriving democracy ;) ;)

We have to ask ourselves, what is the significance of rising up the ladder in the world order? We all know that the US and Russia are no longer classic exemplars of what a hyperpower and superpower are but is it like the first-past-the-post system in politics in that there are no prizes for not being the leader?

What leeway and power do they have to dictate significant events? Not much IMHO. They are more likely to be treated like a pawn in such acts as the missile shield.

ConstantineK, your story is similar to the situation:

Old fox is threatening a rabbit. Rabbit points and shouts "look behind, look behind"!!
Stupid fox don't care and still is trying to catch the rabbit. Meanwhile big bear is coming from behind....

Guess what ConstantineK, Russia is no longer a bear but this fox :-) Yeap, political order is shaking, but the new superpower would be China not Russia. Russia to China is the same as Poland to Russia. All in all Russia is still loking for enemy where there is none.

Russia is surrounded by enemies.Literally.And some of them suicidal.

Certainly not in the west... Polands policy towards Russia is usually reacting not acting. Russia is setting the board and Poland has to play accordingly. Certainly Poland would prefer different rules but has no choice. As usual I repeat that there are only three real disagreements between Russia and Poland:

1. Poland wish for denomopolize resource routes from central Asia to Europe, Russia don't
2. Poland wish for preserve independence of Belarus and Ukraine, Russia don't
3. History disagreements, which would be unimportant without 1. and 2 (because it is used as a political tool)

It seems more and more probable that in the end old saying will prevail:
"Where two beats there third one will take advantage"
It seems that in the end Chinese will pull the triggers in Central Asia. What will Russia economy, based on resource reexport from this region will do then? That is why it makes me laughing when some Russian is happy when current political order is shaking. Beware what you wish for ConstantineK...

Then the next question has to be: WHY ?
Why so many quite different ethnoses don't like Russia ?
Any suggestions ?

Yeah, I foresee a dim future if we keep on letting everybody in. I support going back to the original Six memberstates, pssbly with the addition of Sweden, Denmark and the UK, the latter one having to comply completely and fully to the EU-charters. That would be good. The remainder can serve as satellite-states, good as markets, but for the rest we don't need them.

Yes - this means a EU which consists of: Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxemburg, Netherlands and pssbly Denmark, Sweden and the UK.

I'm starting to have enough of poor countries which have been sucking money up like a spunge, don't contribute anything except dangerous flirtations and bringing in a lot of cr*p into the EU and do nothing than complain about the EU. You should be f*cking grateful that you are allowed to be part of the EU.

Back to the core EU, with 3 additions and the remaining 18 states function as marketplace for us. The EU will still be the economically strongest state in the world and we don't have to constantly pay for the poor brothers and receive nothing but complains in return.

The EU could be strong and rich as hell, but it's the poor brothers that keep pushing the average down.

>^..^<

M-G (grumpy and grouchy)

Kost' was that some kind of after-couple-beers-at-holiday reasoning you wanted to share with us? :) Pls say "yes" or otherwise I can't take it seriously. Russia has a huge dunghill to shovel away in front. It's too big to mind other's business.

Yet it's a great pleasure to see PF#1s subconsciously pro-Polish Russian (Const) and subconsciously pro-Russian Pole (Borrka) generously exchanging their fraternal feelings towards each other. :)


Bor', you never fail to impress me with your deep knowledge of Russian. :)


He-he... I see you were in Moscow. So how was your trip? Providing your drastically changed rhetoric on Russia I assume that you mostly enjoyed staying here. Am I right? How's your Russian? I remember you were planning to take Russian classes here.

* for our American friends: "toi-toi" is Russian analogy of American "honey bucket".

You're all guys have an easy week! ;)

Now that we've established that we are all happy together, what exactly would be your point on Poland's position in the changing world order?

My previous rant about the core-EU was aimed at any member-state who aims at tying up tight relationships with non-EU members as I think that is not the idea of membership of the EU. PL, as member of the EU, can very well tie relationships with Russia, however, it should do so within the EU-context, not on it's own. In other words: the EU should strike up relations with Russia and PL will join in as member, but it should not be that PL on its own starts a relationship with RU. That would destroy the entire idea of the EU and is generally not wanted. And it doesn't matter if the Poles see the Russians as their brothers. That concept is subordinate to the concept of the EU.

And if PL (or any other memberstate) doesn't like this concept, they are free to leave as the new Lisbon treaty actually gives memberstates the option to leave the EU. But I just wonder how any former memberstate will hold on outside the EU.

>^..^<

M-G (mood is not going to get good today, unfortunately)

That would be nice, but could you MareGaea exctract this kind of behaviour from your "core members" especially Germany? Because so far it seems they aren't exactly went that way...

What if Russians suddenly decide to do with Poland solely and not with the rest of the EU?

jwojcie

I don't like it when any member does this. Germany has done this, I don't like it and the UK acts at times as if it weren't a member of the EU at all. I don't like that. The idea is present the EU as a kind of monolith to powers outside. Seperate treaties and the like are only undermining the idead. If any memberstate just does what it likes, what's the point of having a EU then? So, to me it does not matter who does it, I don't condone such behaviour.


In the highly unlikely event that this would happen, PL should say to the Russians that they would have to deal with the EU if they want to deal with PL.

>^..^<

M-G (grmbl)

You need us hypocrites.

For what, exactly? You only cost us money. For the markets? Well, you can be our market even if you're outside the EU - we can create some free-trade zone.

>^..^<

M-G (grmbl!)

[we talk hipotheticaly]

but, what if all this happens in situation of Serbian membership in EU?

What if Serbs accuse some Polish pollitician that he is indifferent and ignorant on some specific Slavic interests and then Serbia threaten to abanden EU if Poland/Brussel reject to take in consideration Russian attitude considering that Brussel don`t have interest in subject or disagree with Russian proposal in advance? What then?

[now, upload in situation new complications]

what if Slovakia and Czech Rep. support Serbian stance and also threaten to abanden EU?

and, what if Polish inteligentsia stand up and also support Serbian stance? what if Polish public also support Serbs and if it leads to serious problems with Brussel?

Remember this word - SERBS

What serious problems? Poland recognises Kosovo as independent, doesn't that tell you sth? Tusk doesn't care about Serbia. Has he even met Tadic?

Crow

Very simple: if Serbia would be tempted to tie a knot with Russia on her own, she will be called to a halt by Brussels. If she doesn't adhere to this, indeed, she should leave the EU, just like any other country that feels that they can act on its own like this.

And if SK and CZ support Serbia (this will not happen btw), then they can leave too :) We don't need them, they need us. And the mere fact that they need the EU more than they need Russia will make them think twice about taking such a step. Serbia will most likely decline any Russian advance to her, should she be a member of the EU. Slavic interests, as far as they exist, are nice and cool, but they should be kept where they belong: in folklore. Since Russia doesn't pay them, but the EU does, they would be very silly to risk stopping the gravy train for some obsolete idea of Slavic brotherhood. It doesn't work that way anymore. You don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. But of course, it's all hypothetically - in real situations this will never occur.

Edit: and should the Polish intelligentia stand up and take a stand for Serbia, Brussels will tell them politely, but firmly to shut up :)

>^..^<

M-G (bad mooded)

realy serious. I remind you that EU isn`t based on Slavic heritage and in the same western Europe used to ignore Slavic interests. In decisive moment Serbs would refuse to be assimilated and to obey to obviously anti-Slavic policy of EU leading countries. You can mark my words, when that happens Serbs won`t be the only Slavs who confronting official EU policy. Austro-Hungaria dreamed of eternal exploitation of Slavs but anyway ended. EU leading contries should remember that Slavs aren`t idiots.

and, Tusk isn`t Poland, as we all know. What you think how many times Polish politicians can escape with ignorant attitude on position of Polish public?

MareGaea

as long as EU can guaranties higher standard of living to growing population, EU would roll. But, if happens that Russia can offer more, then.... we all know that Slavic Confederation can realy emerge from EU. Serbs can wait. We used to

Tusk is crafty though, Crow. He bundles along, doing nothing spectacular, and people see him as a safe politician. I really wonder what your average Polish person would do differently.

Given that Tusk is broadly pro-EU, as is Tadic, I can't see them discussing Slavic Federation issues. However, Tusk and Tadic likely know more than the rubbish spread by some media over the gas crisis. Putin did a conference on that where he answered all questions from journalists. I think you can take heart from that as he answered to the satisfaction of many journalists there, including the Polish ones.

Tusk has a far better relationship with Putin than Jarosław Kaczyński did.

Russia on its own will never be able to offer more than nearly the entire top economies combined. EU has more benefits for Serbia than Russia has. It's very simple. And any Slavic confederation will never be the same as the EU is at the moment. The EU invests in development of its memberstates, a confederation would not. That's a major difference. Serbia will fare well should she be so wise (and it looks like that) to leave any sympathies behind and join the EU...I'm telling you, Crow, it would be really much better for Serbia. Or do you really think that Russia would invest so much (apart from some private things) in Serbia's economy, public life and infrastructure as the EU would do? Don't think so. See, a confederation between Russia and Serbia would be based on business alone, while a membership of the EU means also social, economical, educational, commercial and public development. Surely Crow, you don't want to miss out on that, wouldn't you? At least not for some obsolete ideas? Ideas don't fill your stomach you know, but food does ;)

Edit: so in short, I do think that an EU membership would increase the standard of living for Serbia. At least, if they don't f*ck up like the Greek did...

>^..^<

M-G (don't let the smiley mislead you into thinking that I am better mooded right now)

Good points, M-G. Russia already has extensive business dealings with Montenegro and I dare say Serbia. The EU would bring a whole new dimension.