JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND

But let's read on:


From Professor Isreal Shahak's book.

1jola

You didn't answer my first question. Also, I have a second question: why do you dismiss any source that states that there might be anti-semitism among Poles as drivel, while on the same time, you keep quoting Shahak on parts where he gives out to Judaism, et cetera and present this as solely reliable?

>^..^<

M-G (two sides of the spectrum)

Your first question- I don't know that website, nor am I interested in it. I prefer to look at Jewish sources.

Second question- I don't. I am familiar with Alina Cała and her drivel, that's all. She wrote a whole series of articles recently "proving" Polish anti-Semitism's roots in Christianity. It was amature, and I can't be bothered in translating her nonsense.


Shahak was an authority who was in the position to write the truth. Have you read the book or not? You are free to disagree.

1jola

Not yet - I am ordering it, so it will take some time before I can quote it. I may be old fashioned, but I prefer to read from paper than from computer screens.

>^..^<

M-G (likes his bookshelf)

My guess is, Alina Cała, being an unheard of historian from Warsaw, wants to make an international career. When real historians evaluated her work, she was nearly laughed at. I predict her rise to fame to be exeptionally fast similar to Jan Gross'. He, of course sang a different tune in his earlier works when he still felt Polish. Of course, there was no money in it, so he sold his soul.

1jola

The book we are talking about was published (in Polish) in 1987 - I admit I do not know any other publications of her. Jan Gross, although critised by a handful of fellow-historians, got support from an official Polish inquiry into the massacre of Jedwabne, of which he claims it was perpetrated by Poles, not by Germans. You want to dismiss this too? You can't keep on dismissing evidence and don't get me wrong: I am very well aware of the fact that the Talmud contains some passages that are not very favourable for non-Jews and that there most certainly were bad Jewish ppl, but if you take a close look at the Bible or the Koran, it contains hateful passages too. And besides, like Christianity, Judaism likes to present itself as the sole true religion, and every person who does not believe in it is an "infidel" and should be treated with disregard. You should not lose out of sight the timeframe in it was written. It wasn't written in the 19th century, but 2 to 3000 years ago, different times, for sure. And also, every movement which is in the process of retrieving a place in society will profile itself in extreme form first; once it has gotten its place in society it will mellow down naturally. Take the feminists: when that movement came up, all men were hated and every man was a potential rapist. Nowadays (at least in NL, where they have been around since the 60's or 70's) former extreme feminists are actually embarrassed by their previous statements. It's just a matter of evolution - natural progress. Except for religions as they seem to refuse to progress and prefer to remain living in the time they were created, because, yes, every religion is created - it's not a natural thing, but created like other movements. If certain movements are based on a lie, so is religion, only that is a movement in which loads of ppl believe the lies they've been told. In that respect, religion is the most successful movement there has been so far.

Edit: and what support did the Jews get? Pope Pius didn't want to condemn the proscecution of Jews, wanted to remain a "neutral" course as not to offend the German Catholics. However, when the Germans invaded the SU, and communism is the arch-enemy of religion, he was delighted and actually prayed publicly for a swift victory of Germany. Just for your consideration: whom did the Jews have to trust?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

While those sites are clearly a retards playground they do raise some valid facts.


No but i can post a history with relevant links to the chosen (by you) figures these guys offered.

Though this gunslinger guy is raving he got one thing right, European Jews were big on communism, before, during and after the war.


And then he perverted the data and presented whats basically a fat lie, he purposefully inflated the number of Jews to a non-existent figure (as well as a number of Poles, since we dont know how many Poles participated yet Gross authoritatively posts heavy figures).

Furthermore Gross fails to puts the crime in historical context (Jews murdering Poles under Soviet occupation prior to Jedwabne) and presented this simply as an act of pure mindless greed and hatred when at the time Jews in the region were detested for their previous atrocities on Poles done under Soviets, he also uses specifically designed vague general terms to create an implication that such killings were the norm across Poland.

I dont know whether Gross is simply a sloppy historian or joined the Jewish circles that hate and purposefuly slander Poland but his book is not a solid factual basis to lean on.

The question is whether Gross is purposefully lying or is just a sloppy writer, i'd learn to the prior.


This is another sign of bad will on Gross' account, we know Poles took part in it, we know Germans had a role in it both passive and active, we dont really know how many Poles and how many Germans took part in the crime however Gross is silent about German participation except for a few passages where he (vaguely and withotu reference to sources of course) implies Poles and Germans actually worked together (sic!)

But given the disgusting reception to book got from Jews worldwide its evident they're ready to forget how many of them we saved and to what extents we went to do it, such books are nothing short of excuse for Jews for being racist towards Poles.

Sokrates

See, without the use of foul language we can actually have some form of decent conversation.

:)

Another fact, often presented as cause or justification of the Polish disliking of the Jews was the publicly cheering of the arrival of the Soviet Troops or, in the case of Jedwabna, the transferral from German occupation to Russian occupation. What ppl who put this forward as reason often forget is, that Jews knew what was going on in Nazi Germany and since the Russians did not have the reputation of killing Jews ad random, they were relieved it was the Russians that were to occupy and not the Germans. Soon, the Russians started robbing everything in sight and they realised that it was the same, with the difference that they weren't going to be killed solely based on their Jewishness.

Edit: oh come on, Sokrates, even Cardinal Glemp admitted that it happened that way. And what you seem to forget that there were also loads of Jews suffering from the atrocities of the Soviets.

>^..^<

M-G (lunchtime)

I'd be happy to tear that appart at a different time.



You are not familiar with Christianity then. As to Talmud's treatment of gentiles, how is Nazis' view of Jews as subhuman different from Jews viewing non-Jews as "'unclean animal; loathsome creature, abomination?", I ask you, sir?


For a historian you seem very liberal with dates, which is not advisable.


The rabbis just don't agree with you here. They are not willing to negotiate. Oh, I see you understand this though:[


I guess that's why


nytimes.com/1982/10/26/opinion/l-what-golda-meir-thought-of-pope-pius-xii-245767.html

Am I gonna have to beat up on you everyday? :)

"Anyone who DOESN'T think Israel, as a race, and especially as a religion, is not hatefully racist in its dealings, lives in ignorance" from the wonderkid Gunslinger.

Israel is neither a race nor a religion, Sherlock, it's a state recognised by the UN.

Why the noises now? Like barking little puppies. Israel has broken more UN Resolutions than all other nations combined. Who is paying such fools to make them?

Either do sth about it or zip it!!

Lets get several things clear. Poles disliked Jews because this was a nationalistic period across Europe, all of it, including France, England and USA.

But when so many Jews took active part in murdering Poles and supporting Soviets it ended up with hostility and thats why i have beef with Gross and his ilk, they fail to mention the Jewish participation in Soviet crimes on Poles prior to any Polish atrocities.

Thats of course not any justification but its a much more real reason then Poles being evil hatefull monsters.


Is this why after they cheered Russian troops they participated in murder and denunciation of Poles? Because they were relieved?


Actually Stalin used Polish Jews to deal with Poles on occupied territories and Jews took him up on his proposal.

chodakiewicz.salon24.pl/80983,percepcja-i-rzeczywistosc-zydzi-i-polacy-na-kresach-1939-1941

Of course the phenomenon of Jewish betreyal of Poland is a bit complicated and not every Jew was participating, some actually helped Poles but the fact is it happened.

Jews participated in what amounts to a mass betreyal of their host country (Poland) and while you have a point and fear of Germany played a serious part in their enthusiasm, it did not in their atrocities against Poles.

Forgetting this fact when writing about Jedwabne is in my opinion proof that Gross is biased against Poles.

1jola

Well Golda Meir wasn't known for her good memory.

Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.

It looks like I am beating you up on this one. And this is just one source of many that stated that Pius didn't do anything during the Holocaust.

>^..^<

M-G (and besides: it was a public statement upon his death and nothing but good from the dead, eh? She mainly said this as sign of goodwill, not as historical fact)

There's two important things to remember, traditional enmity between Judaism and Catholicism and more importantly, Vatican was in Fascist Italy, the Pope had very limited options and neutrality was probably the best political choice to preserve the church.

The question is would the Jews risk the seat of their religion for Catholics? I think we all know the answer.

Nobody did anything for the European Jews. Get it, nobody cared. Not even other Jews. But The Jewish Virtual Library pbobably doesn't go into that. The American Jews did the least, yet they are now screaming and threatning for money. Do you think this attitude will result in future pogroms?

In 1939 the cruise ship St Louis filled with Jews fleeing Germany was turned away from Cuba, USA and for England, Belgium and France to even accept several hundred people negotiations done by USA were needed (the same USA that didnt want to admit these people).

Before the war Jews were persona non grata in most of Europe yet people like Gross, and Israeli and American Jewish circles choose to target specifically Poland which was not only a victim of Jewish atrocities but despite them there was a large movement to help Jews.

1jola

I am very well aware of that. Nobody indeed cared about them, hence the more or less hostile attitude of Israël. Everybody had deserted them, and after the war in some parts of Europe things went on like nothing happened, up to the continuing of the killing of Jews. So what else do you expect? Being nearly wiped out and after this ordeal trying to come home only to find that the ppl there have taken over your house, took all that you owned and basically told you you were not welcome anymore. And everything is being justified with "what the Jews did to us." I haven't found any pre-war pogrom of Jews killing Poles and even longer ago, I have not found any conclusice evidence of that. Yet there were pogroms on Jews before the war. Somewhere this must come from. Many Jews were faithful patriots for the country they considered their home. And it was their home as they contributed to culture, society, science and whatever. They fought as brave soldiers in the respective armies and did most of the time all they could to contribute to society. Yet they have been killed for no other reason than that they are Jews. And when it was all done, still nobody listened to them. Instead we hear moaning about Zionism and the gruesome deeds Israël performs. Again, I don't condone those deeds as I am against violence and oppression of any sort, committed by whoever, but what different attitude did you expect? I don't condone it and I condemn it, but it is highly understandable.

Let me reverse things: suppose you're living in another country. Your great grandparents have moved there and you feel a fullfledged member of that state. Yet, at one point, while your family is there for 100 years, somebody comes up to you and says to you: "you are not one of us, you're a Pole. Go back to PL." How would you like that? And what if you don't even speak Polish or never have been in PL in your life?

And btw: just admit it, I have beaten you on the Pope Pius XII part.


Every country had his ppl of the Jewish faith. It wasn't that the Jews were persona non grata, but just the sheer numbers and the hypocrite attitude the West generally has towards refugees. But the difference is between those other countries and PL and RU was that these other countries were shocked by the Holocaust and did not kill Jews because of them being Jews after the war. And the Poles did, be it maybe only once, but still, they did. I think the Kielce pogrom of July 1946 is the main catalyst of the fact that a lot of countries in the world (not only Israël, mind you!) view the Poles as anti-semitic. A Polish friend of mine once told me how his grandma, while watching TV could pinpoint every Jew on there and when she pinpointed them, her friendly face always turned to a disgusted grimace. He never understood that.

>^..^<

M-G (lunch time)

This accusation is repeated on many hate sites.

I ask myself how was that possible. Was there total anarchy? There wasn't at all. Where did all those Jews flocking into the NKVD ranks live then? In tents?

With Jews comprising a significant percentage of the communist State Security (around 34%! of the high positions), and with no love for Polish patriots, one wonders why would they close their eyes when Poles were taking over Jewish property.

This probably didn't occur to you.


You ignored my points and questions and disrespected dear old Golda so don't expect much.

Bon appetite.

That still leaves 66% of non-Jews in the higher ranks. Just wondering why this minority gets the brunt of the blame and not the Polish participant or the Russian? Besides, the NKVD not only arrested and deported Poles at the time, but also Jews. Again you're focusing on a minority while the majority had no part in it. I'm just wondering where you got that number from as I read Soviet sources that said that in the early days there were only 3 to 5 Jews in the higher echelons of the CP of the USSR.

After WW2 there were only a couple of thousand Jews left in Poland. Hardly enough to run a terrorist régime, don't you think? Even if they were to try, they would easily be overturned by 30 million Poles.

Hate sites? Which hate sites? Jewish anti-PL sites? The same hate sites that try to present the overwhelming presence of Jews in the CP? Or what? Or the hatred preached in the Talmud? The Kielce pogrom is a fact, as is the fact that Poles stole the houses of those whom they thought were dead anyway. And when they did come back, they were asked why they were still alive. It was actually chaos in the immediate aftermath of WW2 and things did happen, whether you like it or not.


What a way to say that you're a sore loser. You quote a line Golda Meir said upon Pius' death publicly and she said it as saying what he really did would make her look disrespectful and would cause her to lose a lot of popularity in the Catholic part of the West. Because that was what Golda was all about as well: mutual agreement and respect. Behind closed doors she was well aware of what Pius actually did to save the Jews. Nothing, except praying for a swift victory of the Nazis over the Soviets. And tell me, what points did I not address?

>^..^<

M-G (merci beau coupe)

Sorry but Israels hostility towards Poland is motivated purely by racism and greed, there is no excuse or justification for Israels outlook on Poland, especially in light of thousands of Jews Poles saved and the crimes of the Israeli ancestors against ethnic Poles.

Its disgusting that you even try to rationale it.


That they come to the table with Poland, they admit to their crimes towards us, we come clean of our anti-Jewish episodes and then we can move forward remembering only the Poles who save Jews and Jews who contributed positively to Poland.

Instead Israel chooses the path of racism and hatred at the same time using the smear of anti-semitism to force us to conceed to its disgusting policies and because we do not they become that much more agressive and anti-Polish.


That is a slanderous lie, you're right now just like Gross manipulating the facts to suit your position.

The difference between those countries and Poland is that Jews did not murder or betray citizens of those countries and they did betray and murder Poles (which i notice you failed to adress).


The view propagated initially by Jews, so just because most of the world views us this way is proof of slander (books like Sąsiedzi and Jedwabne which are a bunch of hateful anti-Polish crap as i outlined earlier) not proof of mythical Polish anti-semitism.


Thats another one of your underhanded tactics, sorry but i can say that a friend of mine is superman and it means nothing.

Given your propensity to bias in favor of Jews and insultive opinions towards Poles in previous posts there's a very high degree of posibility that right now you're lying not being able to reinforce your points with anything else then "my friend told me" or "everybody knows that Poles".

I notice how you failed to adress the question of Jewish betreyal of Poland, Jewish atrocities against Poles and the Israeli polonophobia.]


Given that there were 100k-200k Jewish survivors in Poland 33% is a HUGE number and living proof that many Jews were enthusiastic supporters of communism.

Just exactly how did Jews betray Poland before the war? I haven't seen any proof of any Jewish atrocities against Poles in the centuries before WW2, yet I can name a few atrocities committed by Poles on Jews in the centuries before WW2. These are facts and if the facts are considered to be anti-Polish, well, about whom does this say more?


There was/is Polish anti-semitism. Nowadays it may not be as virulent anymore as it used to be, but it is there and it has been there. Maybe not always, but yet for a certain amount of time it was. There is absolutely no denying of that.


You really should lose the paranoid notion that everybody is manipulating the facts in order to prove you wrong or to prove themselves wrong. Kielce did happen and it sent a wrinkle all over Europe. What is there to manipulate? It caused many Jews to leave PL or not to return to the country they considered home. I'm only postulating that thies pogrom may have ignited the concept that lives throughout the world that PL is anti-semitic. Heck, I learned at my (non-Jewish) school that Poles were anti-semitic. Just like a lot of other kids did throughout the West. That MUST come from somewhere, doesn't it? And I don't believe that it's all a lie, as if it was, it would have been revoked a long time ago - we Dutch are pretty fair towards honest history. We admit our own failures and we correct failures made in historical views.

The friend-story is true. We were just discussing Jewish attitude and Polish attitude and those two combined towards each other and so on. It was then when he told me that. It's an illustration. Nothing more.

Around 40.000 to 100.000 Polish Jews survived the Holocaust. Yet their number is of course humongous within the CP compared to the 66% others...To every Jew, there were 2 local Poles or Russians. Yet it's a Jewish movement, of course.

The Jewish meet and greet of the Russian troops in 1939 were mostly organized by the local Communist Party, btw, and not spontaneous. Another misconception.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Not before but during the war, by turning in Poles to be executed by Soviets, killing Poles themselves, confiscating Polish property and expelling Poles from their homes, sabotaging Polish resistance movements.


Really? Want some links on how the Polish Jews enthusiastically joined the partitioning nations? Or wait was it because we were bad little anti-semites that the Polish Jews felt the need to betray us back then?


I can name and link you to over a dozen cases of Jewish citizens betraying Poland during the partitions, Jewish citzens exploiting Polish peasants on ethnic basis during their entire stay and Jews attempting to create ethnic business monopolies through racist policies in trade before WW2.

Jews were far from good loyal citizens, its just that during WW2 they went from borderline racists to genocidal murderers and traitors.


Yep, it comes from racist publications of Jews like Gross that started soon after WW2 ended, there was also an extensive anti-Polish campaign in US (from which the infamous Polish jokes originate) in the early 50s continouing to the 80s, yes it comes from somewhere but not from perceived Polish anti-semitism.


Got any statistics to prove that? I've been living in Poland for all my life and never noticed it to be anything serious, most of us dont give a crap, sure we get mad when someone like you or Gross comes up with racism and bias (and you're prejudiced against Poles to the point where you intentionally omit or manipulate facts to show Poles are racists and Jewish racists and criminals as victims) but for the most part Poland and Poles just dont care.

I'm not gonna engage anymore in a Yes-No Yes, but...-dispute, I'm busy right now, but this remark made me laugh. That's all I'm gonna say about it. Just have a look at this again and tell me if you can read this sentence aloud without being interrupted by laughter or getting tears in your eyes from laughing.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

I have provided a link and i'm going to repeat it:

Which proves Jews in the Eastern Poland were murdering and denouncing Poles to Soviets and it was a massive issue.

As i have said before your only goal in this discussion is to convince people despite all evidence that Poles are racists and Jews are victims, i can provide even more links to academic research which proves Jewish responsibility for genocide on Poles and acts of treason against Poland.

The problem is that you repeatedly ignored proof of Jewish racism and criminal activity, attempted to discredit the sources even when the source was a respected Israeli Jewish academic and now you're trying to ridicule a statement backed by academic sources.

Note i'm not using any political sites, i can provide 14 different links to different academic works of Polish (and in two cases Russian) historians not affiliated with any right wing organisation saying the same.

Jewish were building welcoming gate with flowers for invading German army in 1939.

Gross is not historian, he has studied sociology and his book is full of ****!

I-S (phew)

I find nothing funny. How else would you call those Jews who swelled the ranks of State Security (UB), like Jakub Berman, Stalin's choice or Head of UB 1944-1953?

This is right out of 1984! Jews in WWII were the ones committing genocide?! We were the ones with paranoid racial theories that threw the world into war? You can repeat a lie as many times as you want and it still won't be true. What is your problem with Jews? We don't live in your blood-soaked country anymore, and we don't run your economy or your government. We don't walk around the streets of your cities anymore. All we do is send some school kids to visit your graveyards, and you scream bloody murder. You keep protesting at the thought that there is antisemitism in Poland and all you do is froth at the mouth at anything Jewish. You are sick.

You can rest assured that here in Israel, no one gives a cr*p what you think of us.

Blood-soaked cities, Yehudi? What do you mean? Personally, I don't see any Jews causing problems here but that's not to say it doesn't happen. There is definitely anti-Semitism here but, as I have said before, general indifference as the Poles are an insular bunch.

M-G,

I would like to recommend a book to you. Read a short review here:

history.ucsb.edu/projects/holocaust/Resources/BookReviews

I think it is worth reading. When you read the section on the Kielce pogrom, you will see that it was not just a simple killing of Jews by Poles just because they were Jews. It is a decent book and objective. I think you will learn many new things. Stalin, and the Nazis, for that matter, used various nationalities against each other and look with what good result - we are in disagreement, pointing fingers at each other and no one mentions them.

You can scan it here:

books.google.com/books?id=hC0-dk7vpM8C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=kielce+pogrom+pl&source=bl&ots=vCbJRHI93k&sig=E23hGObhCfud5BKN1G6GvgKT6NY&hl=en&ei=fr3pSq1AhrawBuuh7IsG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CCgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=kielce%20pogrom%20pl&f=false

pages 129 through 140 should be of interest.

1jola

I indeed read a piece on the Soviet occupation of Eastern PL in the years 1939-'41 and I have read indeed that it was the Soviets who played out the diverse nationalities against each other. They actually did not even conceal it, but publicly enforced and encouraged it: minorities were set up against Poles, Jews, as well as Belarussians, Ukrainians. But what I do not understand is that when you know that it were more than just the Jews who fell in the trap of the Soviets, but also Belarussians, Ukrainians; why don't you guys hate them as well? Why is it only the Jews? I mean, the Ukrainians you call your brothers - some brothers, they were happy to kill you guys. Explain that pls, without the CP as we already know that argument. Thanks.

I will have a look at the book recommended and I will see if it's worthwile buying it, as I don't like to read books from the screen.

PS: Saillaint detail may be that the Russians are also a slavic ppl. And see what your "Slavic Brothers" did to you. I've said it before and I say it again: so far for Slavic Brotherhood - it just simply does not exist and has never existed.

>^..^<

M-G (busy)

Umm, who said anything about us hating Jews? This is a history lesson.

As to the Ukrainians,...they had already been thoroughly beaten-down with the Red Hammer, cut down with the sickle. It is estimated that 9 Million Ukrainian civilians died as direct result of Stalin's orchestrated famine against them. The famine was orchestrated by Lazar Kaganovitch, a Jew. Where do you ever hear of this 9 Million Ukrainians dying? You do not.

Christians were persecuted and murdered at the hands of communist Jews, in very large numbers,...Ukraine is just one shining example of this. Bolshevik-subjugated Ukraine was not even a shadow of the Ukraine she had once been, but she was thoroughly posessed by the demon of (Jew-created) Bolshevism. Poles know this, and is why they do not largely hate Ukrainians.