Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / News  % width 43

Grumpy diplomacy hurts Poland


Qacer 38 | 125  
9 Jul 2007 /  #1
Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the twins who are the country's president and prime minister, are outraged that the European Union is treating Poland as a new member of a club. Of course Poland won't meet all the EU's standards (and, the Kaczynskis note, many old members break them too). But does not western Europe owe it a huge moral debt? The twins almost brought a recent EU summit to a standstill by insisting that a new treaty give smaller countries greater voting rights, rather than have such rights determined directly by population size.

economist/displayStory.cfm?story_id=9431900
hello 22 | 890  
9 Jul 2007 /  #2
EU should treat Poland on equal rights to the more established members.

On the other hand, a little more diplomacy of the Polish government officials would never hurt.
Michal - | 1,865  
9 Jul 2007 /  #3
All Poland is interested in is the colour of our money!
FISZ 24 | 2,116  
9 Jul 2007 /  #4
What country isn't? We love money in the US :) So, come and spend your pounds here!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
9 Jul 2007 /  #5
EU should treat Poland on equal rights to the more established members.

First: Poland IS the new guy and right now a taker

Second: Poland with half of the population like Germany has nearly the same votes....do you call it fair??? Is that democratic?

Third: Like in the article stated the Twins brought the summit nearly to a standstill againt the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the other members! Do you call it democratic if one member tries to force his will to all others???

If someone talks so much about demanding rights and democracy they should act that way first....
Michal - | 1,865  
9 Jul 2007 /  #6
Do you call it democratic if one member tries to force his will to all others???

This is exactly why I voted for England all those years ago to stay outside of the Common Market as it was in those days.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
9 Jul 2007 /  #7
Second: Poland with half of the population like Germany has nearly the same votes....do you call it fair??? Is that democratic?

At the present time, on what criteria is the number of votes based upon? :)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
9 Jul 2007 /  #8
Hi girl :) *waves*

Germany: 83 Mill = 29 Votes
Poland: 38 Mill = 27 Votes

I don't think this fair or democratic.
It is the same as if after a vote for a government in a country a much smaller party with much fewer votes get's as much to say as the biggest party which got voted for by the majority...nobody would call that democratic!

But I still don't understand how the allocation of votes is structured (confused look)

*looks adoringly at Shopskis new avatar* :)

Erm...where was I....ah yes....here is stuff for reading:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Votes

"The Council is composed of national ministers for the relevant topic of discussion, with the ministers representing their states. Under qualified majority, different states have different voting weights, as follows (of a total of 345 votes);"

"Of particular note is a change in voting system for most cases to double majority Qualified Majority Voting, replacing the voting weights system. Decisions made by the council have to be taken by 55% of member states and 65% of the Union's population."
horunPoland - | 109  
10 Jul 2007 /  #9
Germany: 50 Mill Germans + 3 Mill Polish + 15 Mill Turkish + .... =20 votes

are yuo agree :)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
10 Jul 2007 /  #10
Germany = 83 Mill people = 7,3 Mill Foreigners (5,9 Mill from Europe, 2 Mill from Turkey, 0.8 Mill from Asia and rest) = ethnic German 91.5%

auslaender-statistik.de/bund/ausl_3.htm

You were saying? :)

PS: We have 2.4% ethnic turks and around 3,7 % muslims overall in Germany...

cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html#People
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
10 Jul 2007 /  #11
re: All Poland is interested in is the colour of our money!

- Prove it.

Is Poland contributing any money to the EU, or not? Do other EU countries take money from the EU, or not? Do you suggest my country and just my country is the alms-taker from the good-hearted generous EU? Aren't you confusing us with the Thirld World folks whom EU gives generous alms (instead of spending the money on EU countries)?

It seems to me that all you're interested in on this forum is to vent out your hatred towards Poles. I wonder why such racists and Polonophobes like you cling to this forum? Are you a masochist indeed?

Because you consider us gutless dummies who will take any insult, right?

When I read hopeless racists like you, I sometimes think that limitations on freedom of speech should be applied to some.

Those like you, that is.
:)
polishcanuck 7 | 461  
10 Jul 2007 /  #12
I don't think this fair

Well i don't think it's fair that i didn't win the lottery last week! Life's not fair, kraut.

I've been quite busy lately and haven't really been following euro politics but, wow i'm surprised poland was given more votes, i didn't think europe would agree to this.

Although i don't know much about the euro constitution and voting and all the rest, i think it's good that poland is fighting for more power - better than doing nothing and getting pushed around. And if the krauts are not happy then they should fight back to stop all this.
Eurola 4 | 1,900  
10 Jul 2007 /  #13
It seems to me that all you're interested in on this forum is to vent out your hatred towards Poles. I wonder why such racists and Polonophobes like you cling to this forum? Are you a masochist indeed?

Yes, he tries desperately to convince everybody that he is British, but he is not.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,146  
10 Jul 2007 /  #14
Life's not fair, kraut.

Don't push Butty too much. At least he is funny sometimes.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
10 Jul 2007 /  #15
Life's not fair, kraut

I did mention it because your twins run around for the cause throwing around those words...

I've been quite busy lately and haven't really been following euro politics but, wow i'm surprised poland was given more votes, i didn't think europe would agree to this.

You should follow it more closely BEFORE making comments.
Poland got nothing but a bad image and delayed the start of the new voting system a bit...

And if the krauts are not happy then they should fight back to stop all this.

You don't really want that!
shopgirl 6 | 928  
10 Jul 2007 /  #16
Question in general:

Anyone have an idea about how to make the allocation more fair....while also ensuring that smaller nations don't go unrepresented?

Maybe there is a better way of bridging the disparity.
If I were from, say Estonia, I would have a concern...because what is the point of being in a union, if you have no voice in the affairs of the union.

Its easy to criticise, but who has a better idea?

Foremost.....what should the criteria be based upon (land mass, population, output)?
Should the country who contributes the most to the union, have the most votes? Should it fluctuate year to year as each country's statistics change?

It sounds like the "qualified majority" means that you vote on issues when they apply to you. How would this figure into things? It should make it more balanced....but of course there may be situations that arise where the opposite is true?
teashoci  
11 Jul 2007 /  #17
All Poland is interested in is the colour of our money!

Quite right the uk gets nothing from the eu, we put in billions upon bilions of our gdp, just for it to be taking by eastern europeans. Poland should contribute something first before it takes money out of westerners pockets like myself.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,388  
17 Jul 2007 /  #18
Poland's leaders need to take some lessons from Putin: smile, be polite & diplomatic, but
when it comes to your country's welfare, be ice-cold & take no CRAP!...of course, Poland
doen't have Russia's resources/power, but she must strive to be as independent & self-
sufficient as possible.
Maxxx Payne 1 | 195  
17 Jul 2007 /  #19
I think this is the goal of all countries.
HAL9009 2 | 323  
18 Jul 2007 /  #20
The whole point of the EU is to encourage countries co-operate and to conduct their foreign policies through discussion and agreement and a transfer of wealth rather than by sending armies across each others borders, as was generally done in previous eras.

I think it has been reasonably successful in this respect.

The Kaczynskis I think did not distinguish themselves in the art of diplomacy lately by trying to renegotiate something that had been previously agreed...
ogorek - | 165  
18 Jul 2007 /  #21
something that had been previously agreed...

correct me if I'm wrong - but this agreement is saying that the higher the population the more say in decisions? In the context of a Union - this is crazy. That means that all the smaller countries will never have any real say in anything. Germany, Uk France will run the show.

Just my opinion THAT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC! THAT IS BOLLOCKS!

Every member country is a self contained country and part of a TEAM.
Each coutries should have an equal say and be represented. I don't see how the
population size is relevant. Be it 1 million or 80 million. Just because there is more of you and you breed like rabbits, doesnt mean to say you have more power.

Bratwurst - if you woke up one day and found yourself living in Estonia -
would you be palying the same tune?

(and don't say well I'm not - so I wont)

You don't really want that!

you have a very short memory...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
18 Jul 2007 /  #22
(and don't say well I'm not - so I wont)

Damn! :(

Maybe a more democratic and fairer possibility would be:

The more you pay and support and keep it running the more you have to say abou how it should kept running!

What about it?

Quoting: Bratwurst Boy
You don't really want that!

you have a very short memory...

Ditto!
Shawn_H  
18 Jul 2007 /  #23
The more you pay and support and keep it running the more you have to say abou how it should kept running!

Certainly not an expert in Euro Politics, but:

Wouldn't those same countries with large population (tax base) be in a better position to pay more and say more about how it is run? Same thing, no?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
18 Jul 2007 /  #24
Wouldn't those same countries with large population (tax base) be in a better position to pay more and say more about how it is run? Same thing, no?

Yup! (I just wanted to word it better...somehow)

Point is that it is undemocratic if a little one gets the same votes as a big one who btw pays the rent for the little one too.

It could work if both were friends but not with two who can't stand each other.
(Today Giertych called Merkel "like Hitler only worse") Thanks for that!

And I wouldn't believe for a minute that Poland in Germany's shoes would take orders from a runt like...say...Ukraine!!! Be honest to yourselves!
Shawn_H  
18 Jul 2007 /  #25
undemocratic if a little one gets the same votes as a big one who btw pays the rent for the little one too

So is this convenient little marriage (polygamy???) going to work?

(Today Giertych called Merkel "like Hitler only worse")

Posting Guidelines:
- Do not insult or harass others, play nicely!
- Do not personally attack others to avoid temporary or permanent suspension
They obviously didn't read the rules...
ogorek - | 165  
19 Jul 2007 /  #26
And I wouldn't believe for a minute that Poland in Germany's shoes would take orders from a runt like...say...Ukraine!!! Be honest to yourselves!

so finally you admit that Germany is (big and powerful) and pushing smaller countries about - how can we work together to stop this. One, or small group of counties can not be seen to dominate the EU. Agreed?

Germany,France or any other country will NOT dominate the EU in any shape or form.
If Poland became big and powerful, I'm sure it would also start pushing others around. That's what happens. But it's wrong.

The whole point of the EU is to encourage countries co-operate and to conduct their foreign policies through discussion and agreement and a transfer of wealth

you see he's got the right idea. The EU is aiming to be a state of equality. Otherwise there is no point. Borders will eventually fade - people will move around - the Germans will finally get their homes in Poland but also Poles will get homes in Germany etc etc and all over EU. Is this so hard to see???

As soon as a country or group of countries begin to seek control the whole idea will collapse - because it's not what the EU is meant to be. The more they try to take control the worse it gets because people are not stupid. The smaller/poorer coutries are taking now - yes but they are also giving too. - in proportion to their means. Germany is giving more becuause it has more. Like Japan - Germany got rich by western (US) investment after war and also to keep them occupied and out of trouble. (As always the trouble makers get rewarded) Eastern E countries were frozen in time by commis. Only now they can recover but they are 50 years behind. GIVE THEM A F****G BREAK. Help the poorer countries now and in the future they will help back. It's not good to kick a man when he's down. Is this so hard to see???
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
19 Jul 2007 /  #27
As soon as a country or group of countries begin to seek control the whole idea will collapse -

Somehow it worked great for 50 years now!
It's mainly your twins screaming around (and mainly because Germany is one of the big shots)

And Poland get's more help from the EU (from Germany) than the totally destroyed Germany ever got after the war.
Not to forget that West-Germany had to absorb and to integrate East-Germany too...which lived under the same conditions like Poland!
Without Germany giving you a "Break" you wouldn't get all this help, you wouldn't be in
the EU in the first place.
Without Germany giving you a "Break" we wouldn't react so quiet and patient to the behaviour of your ducks!
But the Germans are loosing this patience...
ogorek - | 165  
19 Jul 2007 /  #28
And Poland get's more help from the EU (from Germany) than the totally destroyed Germany ever got after the war.

Ok if that's true we can call it quits. Stop complaining.

Somehow it worked great for 50 years now!

attitudes after the fall of the iron curtain have changed. The smell of opportunity
is in the air for some

Without Germany giving you a "Break" you wouldn't get all this help, you wouldn't be in
the EU in the first place.

would take orders from a runt like...say...Ukraine!!!

Poland is helping Ukraine into the EU. They pass on good deeds. They help the dissadvantaged because it is the right thing to do - just like Germany helped Poland.

Or did Germany have something else in mind?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,918  
19 Jul 2007 /  #29
I think we are on two different frequencies here Ogorek!

You find it democratic when one little newcomer holds up a summit of 26 members who just wanted to subscribe to something which was agreed on earlier...throwing tantrums as they don't get their wishes. THAT IS DEMOCRACY FOR YOU!

You find it "bossing around" if the bigger countries who support you with so much money every year want to have a say too.

People like you love it to p*ss at the EU too...remember the buying of the american F-16 instead of the european fighters? Are you for the US-missile base too? Even knowing that most other EU-members are against it??? Not to mention the Iraq-affair...

You sh*t on the EU and what it stands for....your only in for the money and have no shame to play the role of the trojan horse, the pawn for the US against the EU.

Your government has no problems to insult their neighbours and you wonder why other Europeans won't take you seriously???

Poland is helping Ukraine into the EU.

The mood is against another East-enlargement...you spoilt it I think...
ogorek - | 165  
19 Jul 2007 /  #30
I think we are on two different frequencies here Ogorek!

Do me a favour and watch this film. You may learn something.

"12 Angry men"

A 12-man jury is sent to begin deliberations in the first-degree murder trial of an 18-year-old Latino accused in the stabbing death of his father, where a guilty verdict means an automatic death sentence. The case appears to be open-and-shut: The defendant has a weak alibi; a knife he claimed to have lost is found at the murder scene; and several witnesses either heard screaming, saw the killing or the boy fleeing the scene. Eleven of the jurors immediately vote guilty; only Juror No. 8 (Mr. Davis, played by Henry Fonda) casts a not guilty vote. At first Mr. Davis' bases his vote moreso for the sake of discussion after all, the jurors must believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. As the deliberations unfold, the story quickly becomes a study of the jurors' complex personalities (which range from wise, bright and empathetic to arrogant, prejudiced and merciless)

Archives - 2005-2009 / News / Grumpy diplomacy hurts PolandArchived