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Poland boycotts German goods?


Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #241
But even during the Cold War Russia never used their energy as a weapon...

They did not so long ago at Ukraine and Czech republic, that ought to give you a massive "WTF are we doing ?" apparently you did not.

Did you know that Poland was offered 4 times to be a part of the pipeline? To get their own branch??? Your energy concern was offered parts of the pipeline, it was your gov who declined EVERY compromise...

I would gladly shoot these frackers but i am a lowly citizen, if we were smart we'd strike a deal with Norway before Nord-Stream, now its water under the bridge.

Russia already used energy as a weapon twice, in Ukraine and Czech, what makes you think you'll get any other treatment if you say "no" to some untenable russian demand in the future.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #242
They did not so long ago at Ukraine and Czech republic, that ought to give you a massive "WTF are we doing ?" apparently you did not.

Because it was rather a case of Ukraine not paying their due and keeping the gas what was meant for western Europe (Germany too) if I remember correctly...

(And remembering the screeching twins of that times in Poland the idea not to be dependent on you did sound good somehow)

Russia already used energy as a weapon twice, in Ukraine and Czech, what makes you think you'll get any other treatment if you say "no" to some untenable russian demand in the future.

As I said, Russians were always smart enough NEVER to use their gas as a weapon, not even at the height of the Cold war as even nukes were considered!

And they won't do it now neither.
Without the money from their clients in the west and the following isolation folllowing a break of the treaties they would be dead meat and they KNOW that!

We would somehow survive as economies - they would not!
Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #243
Because it was rather a case of Ukraine not paying their due and keeping the gas what was meant for western Europe (Germany too) if I remember correctly?

Actually no, it was a case of Ukraine not receiving the gas they already paid for and thus using up the stuff meant for us.

As I said, Russians were always smart enough NEVER to use their gas as a weapon.
Without the money from their clients and the following isolation they would be dead meat and they KNOW that!

They. Just. Did. Also Europe apparently lacks imagination to project a common policy of isolation so Russia can safely **** on any single or several european countries without fear of being ostracised.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #244
No...it was a matter of not paying...the prices had gone up and Ukraine didn't want to pay...

*goes looking to confirm brain*

Let's see what Wiki has to say:

The dispute between Russian state-owned gas supplier Gazprom and Ukraine over natural gas prices started in March 2005 (over the price of natural gas and prices for the transition of Gazprom's gas to Europe).
The two parties were unable to reach an agreement to resolve the dispute, and Russia cut gas exports to Ukraine on January 1, 2006 at 10:00 MSK. The supply was restored on January 4, 2006,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia-Ukraine_gas_dispute

They. Just. Did.

Huh?
ski 7 | 140  
12 Sep 2008 /  #245
Czechs were cuted last time... our rafinery in Lithuania has problems with supplies and we must buy it from Arabs.

Anny way, we need serious discussion about Nord Stream. It is our national seciurity. We have send several proposals and they were rejected.
Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #246
No...it was a matter of not paying...the prices had gone up and Ukrained didn't want to pay...

Thats another thing, Russia bumped the prices as a means of political reprisal, seriously if Russia was a stable and responsible business partner i'd kill for us to have a part in their gas line.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #247
We have send several proposals and they were rejected.

False! You GOT several possibilites offered to take part, YOU rejected!

The way it sounds from the polish site you like to use the pipeline as a kind of hostage against the Russians AND the Germans!

Thats another thing, Russia bumped the prices as a means of political reprisal,

Nope...

It was noted by Pascal Lamy of the World Trade Organisation that all Post-Soviet states that buy gas from Gazprom must pay today's market prices for their energy needs in order to improve the efficiency of their economies

And Ukraine didn't wanted to pay market prices...because:

Russia supplies about 8 % of Ukraine's annual gas requirements.[citation needed] This gas had been supplied at heavily subsidized prices - about US$50 per 1,000 cubic meters compared to the market rate of about US$230 per 1,000 cubic meters.[citation needed]

Of course Ukraine wanted to pay further only the heavily subsidized prices and not the market prices, understandable.
But also understandable that Russia said "Njet!"
Either you are an independent country or not...

Now imagine that:

On 26 December 2005, Prime Minister of Ukraine Yuriy Yekhanurov confirmed that public-utility prices for gas are lower in Ukraine than those in Russia, and said that a change is to be made,...

Gas was cheaper in Ukraine which has to import it but in Russia who exports it???
Don't sell me the "pooor abused Ukrainians"...
shopgirl 6 | 928  
12 Sep 2008 /  #248
Thats another thing, Russia bumped the prices as a means of political reprisal, seriously if Russia was a stable and responsible business partner i'd kill for us to have a part in their gas line.

But Russia isn't dependable/responsible in that respect, so Poland (like the rest of us) must become independent from oil/natural gas. Then they (the energy merchants) can't use oil/gas or lack of it for leverage!
ski 7 | 140  
12 Sep 2008 /  #249
False! You GOT several possibilites offered to take part, YOU rejected!

The way it sounds from the polish site you like to use the pipeline as a kind of hostage against the Russians AND the Germans!

I don't know if after discussion about paganism we should go into details. I think that Germany and Poland should start to think in common eu interests because it will be good for both. If you build this pipe line as it is planed. Poland will be in russian hands and it is not in long term german interest. However Tusk has done a lot to find solution and there was no answers. we will se what is going to happen now because russia officialy has changed. and czechs had problems with gas (shortly but it is fact that russians used it as political tool of persfasion)

anny way we will see!!!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #250
Then they (the oil countires) can't use oil or lack of it for leverage!

Of course!

But it will take us another 20/50 years and till then energy suckers like China and India are on the march and grow and the resources will get scarce

...the next years will be tough!

I don't know if after discussion about paganism we should go into details.

There is no discussion with you about Paganism, there never was!
You have no idea about this topic...

Pagan = Satanist

Remember?
southern 75 | 7,096  
12 Sep 2008 /  #251
But even during the Cold War Russia never used their energy as a weapon...

They sold gas and oil to other eastern block countries in subsidized prices.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
12 Sep 2008 /  #252
But it will take us another 20/50 years and till then energy suckers like China and India are on the march and grow and the resources will get scarce...the next years will be though!

And we all need energy to run our countries, produce goods, distribute them....I don't know how we solve this problem so quickly.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #253
They sold gas and oil to other eastern block countries in subsidized prices.

They delivered to the West too...they never cut the west off...they could have!

I think that Germany and Poland should start to think in common eu interests

WE DO ALREADY in securing another pipeline for gas for Europe (it's not only Germany getting their gas from the future NordStream)
Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #254
Gas was cheaper in Ukraine which has to import it but in Russia who exports it???
Don't sell me the "pooor abused Ukrainians"...

Yessir, in fact domestic gas is more expensive in Russia than abroad because of the agressive export policy, russian economy is not diverse, it depends on exporting natural resources, take those away and russian economy collapses, therefore they export these natural resources at the expense of domestic needs.

As for Ukraine there was a deal concerning the market prices, it was supposed to begin either now or in 2009, Russia hastened this as a means of political leverage thus using energy as a weapon.

As for cold war, Russia cut Berlin off from food, energy, water and all other basics for an entire year hence the massive airlift effort by the allies.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
12 Sep 2008 /  #255
I don't know if after discussion about paganism we should go into details.

Just a reminder about something ski, don't forget that the Bible (New Test.) forbids you to study or read astrology too. Naughty Aquarius!
Go home and say your prayers before it is too late! :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #256
As for cold war, Russia cut Berlin off from food, energy, water and all other basics for an entire year hence the massive airlift effort by the allies.

That had nothing to do with Pipelines...

russian economy is not diverse, it depends on exporting natural resources,

Actually supports my belief that the treaties and the gas coming through the NordStream will be delivered, regardless the political problems!
Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #257
That has nothing to do with Pipelines...

Yes it does, Russia in the past readily used all available resources as weapons, and today's goverment comes directly from these people, Putin for example was a KGB officer in eastern Berlin.

Actually supports my belief that the treaties and the gas coming through the NordStream will be delivered, regardless the political problems!

It would if Russia followed a rational path in international affairs, it does not. Russian diplomacy and politics are ruled by deeply unhealthy ambitions making them quite unpredictable and dangerous.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #258
Yes it does, Russia in the past readily used all available resources as weapons, and today's goverment comes directly from these people, Putin for example was a KGB officer in eastern Berlin.

No it does not, the matter of West-Berlin was a power struggle between the once-allies and future-enemies of the cold war. It started here...and stilll Russia later delivered gas to the west for decades without any problems!

It would if Russia followed a rational path in international affairs, it does not.

I do think so....but we won't find an agreement here. Agree to disagree?
ski 7 | 140  
12 Sep 2008 /  #259
Bratwurs how to say it Poland in Russian hands isn't in your business ... simple as sun I do believe that our gov should do whatever it can to change this project.

Just a reminder about something ski, don't forget that the Bible (New Test.) forbids you to study or read astrology too. Naughty Aquarius!
Go home and say your prayers before it is too late! :)

Okyou have catched me with this aquarius but I don't study astrology but I have some basic knowledge from TV programe (in some way you have catched me, point for you). With this New Test you have made enourmous mistake !!! (no points).
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #260
How is Poland in "russian hands"?
And why ask you your arch enemy, a darn German about it???
You boycott german goods, a german is most likely an SS-Satanist and whatever...and now you imply we should care for you??? Get lost man!
Dekameron 1 | 146  
12 Sep 2008 /  #261
I do think so....but we won't find an agreement here. Agree to disagree?

Yessir, time will tell though hopefully you're right and i'm wrong because i could kinda get used to peace and prosperity thing.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,676  
12 Sep 2008 /  #262
I totally agree with you here...a cigar? A beer?
ski 7 | 140  
12 Sep 2008 /  #263
How is Poland in "russian hands"?

Why europe fear Russia, it is not about their still hopeless army (I don't know if they could beat Ukraine) but they have already used gas to make preasure on Czechs and sugested that sanctions on them can cause problems for whole europe. Russia is problem and our politicians should discusse it again ! I strongly believe that this project should be discussed once again. Our PM is opened on discussion and has made several positive gestures ... and what ? .

We central european citizens should secure our interests and but products from honest EU countries

GET LOST !

This pipe line is not in BUSINESS OF ANNY CENTRAL EUROPEAN COUNTRY.

THAT IS WHY EVEN YOUR CITIZENS SUGGEST TO STOP BUYING IMPERIAL PRODUCTS.
Sobottka 2 | 106  
12 Sep 2008 /  #264
Honestly, the Catholic Church is not really better than SS-Satanists, but I don't think to be able t declare that to You. Annother point is that those whom You call pagan-Nazis are using every chance to drive this thread away from it's subject, but You do not recognise.

Okyou have catched me with this aquarius but I don't study astrology but I have some basic knowledge (in some way you have catched me, point for you). With this New Test you have made enourmous mistake !!! (no points).

ski 7 | 140  
12 Sep 2008 /  #265
Sobottka

Sobotka what is politcal climate in germany ? what do people talk about Poland, Russia, what they think gov should do.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
12 Sep 2008 /  #266
With this New Test you have made enourmous mistake !!! (no points).

How did I lose points? You want me to point to a verse for you?
*makes really big eyes*

Please don't make me do that!

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