Polish-German Relations in the Present

- Your reply looks pretty uppity to me. Anyhow, I was brought up being told one should be kind to and gentle with women. You apparently have a different upbringing. Or maybe you've been coarse towards Carol because she is a Polish woman?

i was brougt up to judge people as individuals and treat them as they deserve to be treated... and not to treat people differently because of their race creed colour or gender. i thought carol was an american women desperately clinging on to a polish past

u werent very gentle with me.. but thats in the past.. right.. :)

or miranda for that matter... but thats in the past... right... :-)

well, I dont think thats the case here bubba, rather, shes connecting with it and
unfortunately as we all learn and have learned that our history has a very hard
past and of course anger plays into the picture alot of times,, I know where shes
coming from because I have been there, but of course coming on PF has taught
me many things. one to open up and see a little more.. and I am still learning ..

sometimes we see horrible things and those pictures play a big part of what our
minds can only focus in on.. instead of seeing that the younger generations are trying
to move on and forward into a new poland , its hard,, its hard to not look at the past
and not feel the feelings of anger .. and the problem is, we dont see enough of the
current Poland ( those of us who never been) and so its still a learning process..

:) we all have to just hang in there..

this is what i believe - polands future is with the new generation - not those from the communist era or those who have little connection with poland other than an ancestor - leave the anger, pain and suffering in the past, dont put it on the present becasue they will take it into the future


then people need to stop interferring and proecting their bitter memories and resentments, things have changed and people are trying to move on to a bright, prosperous future

- But to treat them differently because of their nationality...?

Honey, this is yet to be seen. Being born in the USA by Polish parents I guess I learned to speak up. They never wanted me to be a pawn, slave or dead due to corruption of power. While the ones under communism could not speak, the ones spead across this nation had a voice. God Bless Poland


Poland has been silenced and unable to speak of what really took place. My prayer for Poland is they do not just to forget the past.

We lost our country and family members. Poland's hero's from WW1 that fought to give Poland their freedom, fought again in WW2 to get it back, ended up being betrayed and in the end lost the very thing they were fighting for. My family's blood was spilled along with all the other Polish, plus they lost their country.

I am far from "old" and "bidder" is not the word I would use. I am "saddened" to see Poland pushed around. After what we went through and the cost to all of Poland how dare countries involved act so brazen. Poland proved how strong they are.

Germany setting up a display of how victimized they were.... Please, think of the cost Poland paid in lives.

It's not just Germany, lets look at Ukraine, 1932-33 lives all of a sudden means something, yet what about accountablity for the ones they took.

Shall I go to Russia, Pres. Putin could have done some damage control and showed the world he has a human heart by showing up at "Katyn" ceremony. Pres. Putin never did come and show respect for our dead men. Instead we read about Polish Pres. may have been drunk. Well you know what, I may have had a shot myself having the memories he has, wow he must have cared.

Carol, USA

- I don't recall being as crude towards Patrycja as Bubby towards Carol.

I called miranda once - jokingly - the c-word in the Random Abuse. Or perhaps you consider 'wench' a vulgar term, Bubby?

Actually, I like and respect miranda today.

Im not saying anything bad, rather explaining maybe this is why some do.. and its
really hard to get in touch with your ethnic background with so many obstacles in
the way.. no one wants anything bad to happen, I think they just want to understand
more. and there is alot of focus on the past in poland alone.. especially travel.

for instance,, the infamous Aushwitz. etc.. all the death camps that are a huge tourists
attraction.. its like, come see how we suffered, then enjoy some food and drink and
dance. this is advertised.. people I know that went to poland said I went to the death
camps.. I asked them why??

because that was part of the tour we went on as a group. POLAND has to stop
this.. all people know is what happened about the war.. not before it.. or rather
the larger focus is on that..

I didnt want to be stuck in 1939...

to me.. Poland means so much more.. its my familys homeland. a place where beauty
and culture were strong.. thats what the focus should be about.. not the camps.

if I ever visit.. or get to. I will never step foot into them.. its only giving into keeping
alive the horrible things that Hitler did.. and I wont give him that.. he died of his own
hand.. because he knew he would face something much bigger then he and he was
a coward who hid behind his people and filled their heads with lies and deciet.. thats
my most indepth feelings on it.

I think some people do that because they feel that if they don't pay homage to the past, it will be forgotten and then repeated.

But that's different than wallowing in pain and agony and refusing to let go.

What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between remembering the past and getting stuck in reliving it.

wars have been happening since the world began,, we lost family since the world
began, not to the extent and yes that time was supposed to be more civilized
but again, my above post says how I feel.. still stands. that also changed from how
I started to feel in the beginning.

Poland will have to move on. because People visit places that are more fun, and
exciting.. beaches, sand. etc.. their top tourist attraction shouldnt be a death camp
rather it should be positive.. get poland on her feet.

i hope you prove me wrong


people ive spoken to about it have expressed suprise that ive been to krakow but never visited auschwitz but like you, i have absolutely no desire to be reminded of the horrible things people do to each other


its not the words puzzy, its the upset that they cause and, so far, i dont think i have bullied or offended anyone off the forum

I think it is not a matter of "how" victimized people were. The center info you provided doesn't say anything that I can see proclaiming the quantity or quality of suffering against another group. That would be absurd. How can anyone say that one person's suffering is more or less meaningful than another person' suffering? Why would anyone want to do that? There should be be sanctity and respect for losses sustained to people everywhere....as this center proposes, rather than making it a contest.

I tell you this, I would not dare tell an Iraqi mother that the loss of her son was less than the loss of an American woman's son! I would not deny her a memorial to her son. We are all humans.


I can see where accepting accountability would help families of victims get closure, but if it is not forthcoming, you have to help yourself. You can forgive without forgetting. Forgiveness in my definition, means letting go of the anger and pain, so that it does not eat you up inside. It does not mean that you give your approval to what happened, nor that you have to forget it.


In my opinion, Putin doesn't care for his own people, much less for something that happened on Stalin's watch. Lets not forget when the Kursk submarine sank with all the loss of life, Putin was on vacation, and couldn't be bothered to put in an appearance. Carol, don't hold your breath waiting for apologies from others. You can find healing in spite of that! I hope that you find peace. :)

Then why do they keep him in power?
Carol

Do they have a choice?

Have you followed all the uproar after his victory at the polls a couple of weeks ago?
(Very few governments think that the Russia election was free and open and have suggested inquiries into the process...but really, who will force the issue)

And there was also the news article about the Russian chess player who was thrown into jail for speaking out against Putin (he had been at it for a while).

Things are very different for us in this part of the world. We rarely know the reality of what life is really like in other countries. I have even heard people say this about parts of Poland (that you need to be careful of what you say about government) but I don't know how much truth there is to it.

I think what we're comparing here is the suffering of a an attacker and that of his victim.

Think of it as feeling sorrow for either someone who was killed, or for his killer who broke his hand while killing his victim.

I don't think that is at all what we are comparing AT ALL......please go to Wildrover's comment in the other thread about the Center for displacement proposal in Berlin.

I'm talking about families (mostly women and children) that had to flee because they were on the wrong side of a border (any border) when their governments went to war. I can absolutely relate to the idea of having your life torn apart about by governments that don't really care about their people.

But if it helps you to only see countries in terms of their military...that's your choice!

True that governments mostly don't care. But you need to remember that most Germans were happilly marching east to take over someone else's lands, gladly accepted slave workers from Poland, cattle, manufactured goods and the promise of the 1000 Year Reich.

Sure, some were in disagreement, but I can;t imagine that only a small group of Germans was all it took to support the biggest slaugher in human history.

The only true German vistims were small kids. The parents got what they desrved, and thus they are, in my mind, ultimately responsible fot the suffering of their own offspring.

I dont see the reason of this discussion German victims ... pfff they have choosen Hitler in elections and were very happy to be superior race ... AND WANTED TO EXTEMIATE ALL POLES ... BUT FAILED ...

In saying this you somehow seem to know the personal beliefs and their allegiances of every parent who "got what they deserved". How are you able to do that? Sorry....I 'm not so confident as you.

Who wouldn't be in their situation... :)

That is a gross oversimplification of history and fact. It takes a lot of work and effort to look more closely at a situation...more than most people are willing to do. There is always more to the story than is seen on the surface, and with the amount of information available from a wide variety of sources on this very well documented subject it is not hard to find.

How easy it is to just say pfff and toss out another stereotype.
But it happens all the time....

I never wrote "every parent". Read my post again and debate my comments, not the comments you think are mine.

ok since we are talking Polish and German relations in a Polish forum. and
Brat is saying some things I never thought he would say,, lets get on with it
shall we... in a thread more appropriate...

Beat on the Brat with a baseball bat! ;)

What did I say wrong?

It would be easier to say what you did right. :)

Never mind though, I was just singing. Don't you know The Ramones? You know, that American band, or are you listening only to Euro Dance and Russian contemporary music. :P

The Ramones? I've heard of them...but I have no idea about russian contemporary music...really not...