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Polish-German Relations in the Present


the_falkster  1 | 180  
13 Dec 2007 /  #601
They want to bulid kind of center in Berlin showing them as victims of WWII

you should check your information on this one mate...

old borders of Poland

okay... so you show an old map of poland here but at the same moment you state

And Germans live in the past not we

...
very interesting... ;-)

shall we all start looking up historic maps and just throw them in when they suit our argumentation best???
i believe in looking forwards not backwards...

Just think what would happen if Hitler have won the war ...

you probably would speak german today...
however, i hope we all agree that it is best that hitler did not win the war... that would not have been a germany i want to be a son of...
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
13 Dec 2007 /  #602
you should check your information on this one mate...

Ive checked they want to build it ...

z-g-v.de/flashintro/eng/index_flash_eng.html

in english

western part of Poland is originaly Polish , not German.

and the fact is that Germans setled there and later started to expel Poles by force and didnt treat us equal ... it is historical fact

What can be interesting Germans living there very strongly supported Hitler they wanted to "race of lords" or sth like that ... SS was very popular in this region. They lost they were sended to their home land Germany. Yes I think we can live peacefuly, border between Poland and German is ok.

What is interesting a lot of Polish people buy properies in Germany (close to Polsih border) because it is chiper but they work in Poland ... after Schenegen it will be much easier so I think more of Polish people will buy some properies there ...

yes we can live peacefuly now :))))

okay... so you show an old map of poland here but at the same moment you state

because it is our first recognized border

Polish tribes come form here (Wroclaw, Szczecin, Poznan, Krakow, Gdansk)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polans_(western)

German HUNS have stolen this grounds but have been PUNISHED

... it is history get over it ...
the_falkster  1 | 180  
13 Dec 2007 /  #603
Ive checked they want to build it ...

i know that they are going to build it.

your information is wrong though, or you allegedly express it this way, that germans would present themselves there as victims of ww2... THAT is what i meant you are wrong with... ;-)

people in germany who really believe they are victims of ww2 and the aftermath are a very small (and stupid) minority... and the organisations you are speaking of are seen and discussed very controversially. the vast majority of germans live in the present, not in the past.

regarding all the historic blah blah...
do you believe poland would be better off if they had "their" land back and the borders shut again?

isn't the tendency in europe not going more and more towards opening borders?
think this idea a bit more into the future (instead - and that is for everyone - always looking up history books). eventually borders will be a thing of the past and we can all live with our local and regional traditions but peacefully and in mutual respect for each other...

should we not appreciate what we have got and see how we can develop from there? people today are so much lacking vision and therefor have to look backwards...

i believe it's wrong...

edit:

... it is history get over it ...

exactly...

and as such it should remain where it belongs...

in the past.

no problem with that...
celinski  31 | 1258  
13 Dec 2007 /  #604
it is history get over it

Get over seems to be a common outlook. Get over or learn from? Carol
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
13 Dec 2007 /  #605
the_falkster

I support EU, because I think next war between European states would kill Europe at all ... so we have to live together.

et over seems to be a common outlook. Get over or learn from? Carol

I think that idea of EU shows that we try to learn ... there is another discussion: what is proper directon of EU ... and who is going to lead ;)))))
the_falkster  1 | 180  
13 Dec 2007 /  #606
who is going to lead

hmm...

if they don't know yet i would be available... ;-)
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
13 Dec 2007 /  #607
YOU no WAY ... I think I m the best ;)

What is more ;-))

I think our proposal is really ok (...)
shopgirl  6 | 928  
13 Dec 2007 /  #608
Come on guys....shouldn't we put the leadership decision to a vote from the people? hehe
;)
southern  73 | 7059  
13 Dec 2007 /  #609
This is a very dangerous thought for Brussels beaurocracy.
Puzzler  9 | 1088  
13 Dec 2007 /  #610
Filios is the Polish(-Greek) counterpart of the German chauvinist and Polonophobe calling himself Bratwurst Boy, who used to drop into this forum and insult Polish people and Poland.

Falkster appears to be a completely different type of German. That's good.

So far so good, that is.
:)
Filios1  8 | 1336  
13 Dec 2007 /  #611
I would not like to be compared to that racist bastard. I remember his posts, when I still wasn't a registered user.

Tell me Puzzler, whatever made you think that I am a Germanophobe? I respect the Germans, but with equality. I have done nothing to insult the German people and the German nation, so please do not compare me to him.

Falkster appears to be a completely different type of German. That's good.

So far so good, that is.

Falkster seems like a decent enough German, who only wants the best. But Puzzler, you do not know what his underlying intentions are.
So far so good? Are you referring to the selling of Polands soul? I know many just like you, would do anything for respect in Europe, and more prosperity, even if it meant selling the motherland.
the_falkster  1 | 180  
13 Dec 2007 /  #612
Falkster appears to be a completely different type of German

thanks for that puzzler...

i see myself rather than an internationalist...
was traveling a lot, lived and worked in south america, now in england... that puts many things into perspective...

knowing our history it is quite easy to understand that germans are always educated (at school for example) so that they are not allowed to have any hint of patriotism. in germany when you were waving a flag you would quickly be put into a far right corner...

this is actually quite a sad story if you compare it for example to the english people who (today) have a rather relaxed way of patriotism and can easily joke about their certain inabilities (that is actually enough material for a seperate thread)...

however in germany we all had to look for a different ways and means of identification, which (amongst the more educated) lead to a more open mind and tolerance...

we know our our history and therefor are able to prevent it from repeating itself...

however there are a few idiots... but they are a minority and not representative for todays germany...

i'm most certainly not one of them, what matters the most to me... ;-)

edit:

what his underlying intentions are.

trust me there are none. if i have learnt one thing in life than it is to clearly say what i think and not to hide my intentions. this way it is up to everyone else to decide if they want to deal with me or not. what you see is what you get...

not always easy in england i have to admit... ;-)
lesser  4 | 1311  
13 Dec 2007 /  #613
ok so maybe we should discusse about problems we have with Germans.

1 Nord Stream (gas pipe)

2 They want to bulid kind of center in Berlin showing them as victims of WWII

3 case of western terytories of Poland

A colleague joined LPR I see. :)
shopgirl  6 | 928  
13 Dec 2007 /  #614
knowing our history it is quite easy to understand that germans are always educated (at school for example) so that they are not allowed to have any hint of patriotism. in germany when you were waving a flag you would quickly be put into a far right corner...

this is actually quite a sad story if you compare it for example to the english people who (today) have a rather relaxed way of patriotism and can easily joke about their certain inabilities (that is actually enough material for a seperate thread)...

however in germany we all had to look for a different ways and means of identification, which (amongst the more educated) lead to a more open mind and tolerance...
we know our our history and therefor are able to prevent it from repeating itself...

I have been reading up/studying a little about this aspect of German culture over the summer, and what you said here is in alignment with what I have learned. I was very surprised to learn how guarded many German's are today in regard to expressing themselves politically because of the strict taboos resulting from the negative consequences of historical nationalism. As an American, I came to realize that the freedom of speech that I take for granted (we can and do say say pretty much anything, idiot or not!) is a rare commodity in many parts of the world.

Next, I was shocked at how "fresh" the fallout from WWII is (I especially got that sense from this forum). Then I started to ask myself questions, like "Where is this coming from? The grandparents? The young adults of today?". It seemed to me that it (unresolved anger, fear and frustration between Poland and Germany, et al) was getting passed down to young people from older family members, with help from the media.

Then I wondered, if I were a 20 something in Germany today, how would I react to all the restrictions, imposed guilt, overwhelming pressure to be so politically correct all the time? I have to say (as a very free Ammie of course) I'd be fed up! I had nothing to do with what that generation did! Why do I have to tip toe around on eggshells? To hell with this! This is MY life and I will live it my way. (Of course this would get me in a LOT of trouble in Germany). So what would happen? How would I rebel? How could I be an individual and have a voice, when conformity is demanded? I think I would burst at the seams. There is too much independent rebel in me.....I would probably do something counter to the culture just to be heard, even if I didn't really agree with the cause! I think I would have a kind of anger in me, looking for a way out.

Does that make sense? Is that any different than a generation of young people struggling to assert themselves by letting their hair grow and following the Beatles? (another generation, I know...but you get the idea?

My bottom line is this: I would rather see people speaking freely and "getting it out of their system" than keeping it bottled up (a pressure cooker eventually blows). I see that what comes out is a bit ugly sometimes, especially when one side does not try to see the other side's view OR tries to trump each other out of ego. *sighs*

I can put myself into Polish shoes as well. There is a lot of pain, agony, and suffering there. But acting out the victim role is just as dangerous as boiling in the pressure cooker. It keeps you chained up to the past and prolongs the misery. It would eat me alive to try to live like THAT! How could I ever fight my way out of that kind of fog to do or be anything? I think I would feel depressed and "stuck".

My fave line from the "behind the scenes footage" of The Pianist from Roman Polanski (paraphrased): "This film shows that there is good and bad in all people. There were bad Germans and good Poles, but there were also good Germans and bad Poles".

Amen, Roman.
Puzzler  9 | 1088  
14 Dec 2007 /  #615
I can put myself into Polish shoes as well. There is a lot of pain, agony, and suffering there. But acting out the victim role

- It seems you're putting yourself in the wrong shoes. Where and when are we really 'acting out '(sic) 'the victim role'? It's just a stereotype that we do.

Yeah, you seem to do much better when you put yourself in the German shoes.... :)

As for quoting from 'Roman,' especially as regards the line: 'There were bad Germans and good Poles, but there were also good Germans and bad Poles,' the meaning of your interpretation of it seems to be: it was 50-50, Germans were bad and good, and Poles were bad and good. Hence the final account is zero. :)

Was it really so? Was it really 50-50? Is it really always so relative that there are no those who are worse and better in given circumstances?

Do you unconsciously prefer to hold such a view because you are American and the view conveniently justifies the conduct of the United States towards many nations, such as Native Indians, Vietnamese, Latin Americans, Iraqis?

Finally, I would be very careful with believing any artist; artists usually aren't sages.

PS. Polanski's film shows one more thing: that there were some Jews, such as the Jewish police in the ghetto, who were really really bad....

germans are always educated (at school for example) so that they are not allowed to have any hint of patriotism. in germany when you were waving a flag you would quickly be put into a far right corner...

- Same in Poland. We are right away branded as 'nationalists.' But in the US, Canada, UK, national flags are put out everywhere.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
14 Dec 2007 /  #616
I think some people dont understand issue,

as to WWII ... in our courts we have several processes between our citizens and German one, in case of properies which belonged to German before WWII ... of courese they lost but it is annoying ... and it is bad for our citizens, how would you feel if Your grandfader would have been expeled by force form eastern Poland to nowadays Western Poland ... and now ansestors of some nazi F**** goes to court and you have to deal with it, you win but it isnt nice situation. What is the fact, there are thousends of such cases and it is bad for our citizens. Our gov wants to close this case, and Germans say that it isnt important. In my opinion it is important.

As the result some Polish organizations started to count how much Germans should pay for what they did ... The fact is that they have payed for French they have payed for Jews but they havent payed anything for Poles ... if Germans try after 60 years get some properties, why the hell we shouldnt try to get sth ... (way of thinking)

We have to solve this issue.

Yes most of nowadays Germans dont live in the past but this part which live in the past is really annoying... We want to close this issue ...

as to Polish/Czech reactions according to this center showing Germans as victims (this project is supported by German gov in cooperation with Germans citizens and their ansestors who comes from western part of Poland) we are simply against this project. What is interesting I have seen Brtis reactions when Germans wanted to show air atacks on their towns as genocide ... we react in the same way.
the_falkster  1 | 180  
14 Dec 2007 /  #617
I had nothing to do with what that generation did! Why do I have to tip toe around on eggshells? To hell with this! This is MY life and I will live it my way. (Of course this would get me in a LOT of trouble in Germany). So what would happen?

agree.
in my case it lead to me leaving germany and being proud to be a german in england. and you know what... people here appreciate me for this.

the good thing for me now is that i can be proud of living in england embracing their way og live and if i feel like i can be "the german" at any given time. it's great...

a pressure cooker eventually blows

as i said somewhere earlier. germany is not going to blow in an aggressive way anymore. so much we learnt from our history...
i don't feel the pressure and holding back thing in germany as something that urges to eventually burst...

(we can and do say say pretty much anything, idiot or not!)

i bellieve you glorify slightly in saying this but that would be again material for another thread...

Was it really so? Was it really 50-50? Is it really always so relative that there are no those who are worse and better in given circumstances?

not in any given circumstances (ie historical period) but overall i would agree that we are very close to 50-50. maybe 49.8-50.2 but still i believe we should look into the future and respect each others past...

going back further andf further in history will eventually show that once we were running through the forrests with sticks hunting mammooths... ;-) you know what i mean.

you are American and the view conveniently justifies the conduct of the United States towards many nations, such as Native Indians, Vietnamese, Latin Americans, Iraqis

touché! ;-)

But in the US, Canada, UK, national flags are put out everywhere.

which is a good thing, isn't it? a HEALTHY identification with your heritage should be normal. remember the world cup last year in germany? i wasn't there but for the first time since ages german flags were waved like that without being a threat. i believe the germans were good hosts... now we should build on that...

EDIT:

As the result some Polish organizations started to count how much Germans should pay for what they did ...

today nobody should pay anymore for what happened at ww2....

if Germans try after 60 years get some properties, why the hell we shouldnt try to get sth ... (way of thinking)

absolutely right. which proves that this (small) minority of backward thinking germans should shut up! and yes our gov fails to make a point in this...

We have to solve this issue.

agree

Yes most of nowadays Germans dont live in the past but this part which live in the past is really annoying

couldn't agree more.

you know me by now. this issue does us both no good in looking forward to live with each other. i simply hope that in poland are people genarally thinking "yes there is a small group of silly germans, but the rest seems to be okay"...

you know what i mean.
don't let this issue ruin or hinder a growing relationship between our nations within europe...
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
14 Dec 2007 /  #618
ohhh yes american view ... Poles like indians or black americans ... no comment

What I want to add ...

becuse some people think that Germans apeared in Poland like vinkings in Europe, or English in north America...

I live in Poznan and there is little statue of poor German imigrants who found Poland safe place to live...

Poznan

later

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

After the Falk Laws (May Laws) had been passed, the Prussian authorities started to close down most of schools teaching the Polish language. Instead, the German language schools were promoted. In November 1872 minister Falk ordered all classes of religion to be held in German by the spring of the following year. The wave of protests on the side of Polish Catholics and the clergy was pacified the following year, when the Catholic Seminaries of Posen and Gniezno were closed down, and the state took up the supervision of education, previously carried out mostly in church-sponsored schools. The estate of the Church was confiscated, monastic orders dissolved, and the paragraphs of the Prussian constitution assuring the freedom of the Catholics were removed. In Greater Poland the Kulturkampf took on a much more nationalistic character than in other parts of Germany

hopefuly we have won ...

BTW We have dont what Irish should have done in Northen Irealnd ... and maybe Serbs in Kosovo ...

It is history ... I think we can go forward, but we have to close some issues.

I've forgoten to add quote about Poznan.

All in all, the policies of Germanisation of the PoznaƄ area mostly failed. Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans. The long-lasting effect of the Polish-German conflict in the area was development of a sense of Greater Polish identity, distinct from the identity common in other parts of Poland and primarily associated with nationalist ideas rather than socialism, prevailing in other parts of the country in 20th century.

southern  73 | 7059  
14 Dec 2007 /  #619
Next, I was shocked at how "fresh" the fallout from WWII is

Yes,it is fresh because in Europe there were mostly losers from this war and they want to know why they lost.

Where is this coming from? The grandparents? The young adults of today?". It seemed to me that it (unresolved anger, fear and frustration between Poland and

It is coming by itself,by the circumstances.When a Pole goes through some situations and certain behaviours,he starts to wonder why things are like this,what led to them.

Then I wondered, if I were a 20 something in Germany today, how would I react to all the restrictions, imposed guilt, overwhelming pressure to be so politically correct all the time? I have to say (as a very free Ammie of course) I'd be fed up! I had nothing to do with what that generation did! Why do I have to tip toe around on eggshells? To hell with this!

They say the same and cause even more anger to the other people who suffered from german actions.

This is MY life and I will live it my way. (Of course this would get me in a LOT of trouble in Germany).

You would have no trouble.Germany starts to use again the national emblems as a way to inspire people for higher productivity.

So what would happen? How would I rebel? How could I be an individual and have a voice, when conformity is demanded? I think I would burst at the seams. There is too much independent rebel in me.....I would probably do something counter to the culture just to be heard, even if I didn't really agree with the cause! I think I would have a kind of anger in me, looking for a way out.

In Germany you simply would not say anything because in this country the authorities are respected.If you rebel like this,you become a danger for the general well being.Amis in this aspect seem to Germans paranoid.

Does that make sense? Is that any different than a generation of young people struggling to assert themselves by letting their hair grow and following the Beatles? (another generation, I know...but you get the idea?

In fact it is some generation when people try to cut all their hair to make good skinheads.

My bottom line is this: I would rather see people speaking freely and "getting it out of their system" than keeping it bottled up (a pressure cooker eventually blows). I see that what comes out is a bit ugly sometimes, especially when one side does not try to see the other side's view OR tries to trump each other out of ego. *sighs*

It is Europe,you do not understand.What is free expression for somebody,it is fascism for somebody else.Many prefer control.

I can put myself into Polish shoes as well. There is a lot of pain, agony, and suffering there. But acting out the victim role is just as dangerous as boiling in the pressure cooker. It keeps you chained up to the past and prolongs the misery. It would eat me alive to try to live like THAT! How could I ever fight my way out of that kind of fog to do or be anything? I think I would feel depressed and "stuck".

I think in USA there are many minorities who play the victim role very efficiently.I have heard about affirmative action in favour of blacks,measures in favour of Hispanics etc.

My fave line from the "behind the scenes footage" of The Pianist from Roman Polanski (paraphrased): "This film shows that there is good and bad in all people. There were bad Germans and good Poles, but there were also good Germans and bad Poles".

Have you read Rokosovsky's orders to the red army?''Comrades you should realize that there are no good Germans.The only good German is the dead German.Kill,kill,glorious soldiers of the red army.Do not respect the pride of german women.Make them remember you with terror for the next hundred years''.
celinski  31 | 1258  
14 Dec 2007 /  #620
but they havent payed anything for Poles

This is an important point. As with my posts asking about Polish/Ukraine taking responsability. If Poland does not take a strong stand asking for resolve in Ukraine and Russia, it leaves Poland a sitting duck for everyone to keep making them pay. Victimizing Poland over and over. It is Poland that was raped and until we can open up the past and demand accountability, Poland will continue to pay the price of silence. Poland is free now and needs a strong goverment that will stand up for the Polish people. They may not be the most popular ones on the block but after the truth gets cleared and truth is on the table, Poland will stand tall. Carol, USA
slick77  - | 127  
14 Dec 2007 /  #621
Poland will stand tall.

I strongly disagree. It is because of views like yours Poland always get its a$$ kicked. I say we should for once SIT DOWN and start being realistic about our situation in Europe. Poland is not a super-power and its foreign policy should be more realistic.

Your view reminds me of Polish government in 1939. They would “stand tall” to everybody around and they were first to leave the country.
Puzzler  9 | 1088  
14 Dec 2007 /  #622
not in any given circumstances (ie historical period) but overall i would agree that we are very close to 50-50. maybe 49.8-50.2

- What specifically do you mean by this?

I strongly disagree

- You strongly disagree that Poland should have a strong government standing up for the Polish people?
celinski  31 | 1258  
14 Dec 2007 /  #623
I strongly disagree

Are you Russian or German? Carol
Filios1  8 | 1336  
14 Dec 2007 /  #624
I strongly disagree. It is because of views like yours Poland always get its a$$ kicked. I say we should for once SIT DOWN and start being realistic about our situation in Europe.

You sir, are a coward, and the slime of the earth. What possible benefits do you see from SITTING DOWN, as you put it. To be a coward just like yourself? What does realistic mean?

So you're telling me that after WW2, under Communist rule, Poland should have shut up, because they got their ass kicked?

Please disregard this creep ladies and gentleman, for he is but another liberal coward who does not know history.
slick77  - | 127  
14 Dec 2007 /  #625
- You strongly disagree that Poland should have a strong government standing up for the Polish people?

If "standing up for Polish people" means asking for trouble/making enemies all over the Europe & world then I don't want this kind of government.

Are you Russian or German? Carol

???
Zgubiony  15 | 1274  
14 Dec 2007 /  #626
Not sure if this was mentioned in the past 23 pages, but apparantly Poland has been donating a lot of blood to Germans lately. i saw this on the news but no article ...sorry.
BubbaWoo  33 | 3502  
14 Dec 2007 /  #627
start being realistic about our situation in Europe. Poland is not a super-power and its foreign policy should be more realistic

what a quandary... much as i would like to disagree and call you the slime of the earth i do think you are actually right

Poland should have a strong government standing up for the Polish people?

of course poland needs a strong government, but not one which is going to damage its place in europe and the eu - polands last government was making it the laughing stock - lets hope this one takes a more positive approach

If "standing up for Polish people" means asking for trouble/making enemies all over the Europe & world then I don't want this kind of government.

damn thats twice ive agreed with you - better call your mum a crack ho before people start getting the wrong idea
Filios1  8 | 1336  
14 Dec 2007 /  #628
polands last government was making it the laughing stock - lets hope this one takes a more positive approach

A laughing stock for who? For the communist slime it was destroying? For the pensions it was taking away from them? For trying to somehow rid the govermnent of corruption?

Who do you trust now? Tusk? He is doing his best to pull Poland back into the Russian and German spheres of influence. You think that is a good thing?

What are your beliefs behind that thought? So you say we were a laughing stock. Are you talking in terms of the Kaczynski's physical characteristics and how they were seen? I.e Polish carofel in German newspaper. Is that all you care about? What others think of us? You sir, are also slime and do not deserve to call yourself Polish. People like you, and their sucking up to other countries is what is ruining our nation.
Lukasz  49 | 1746  
14 Dec 2007 /  #629
I strongly disagree. It is because of views like yours Poland always get its a$$ kicked. I say we should for once SIT DOWN and start being realistic about our situation in Europe. Poland is not a super-power and its foreign policy should be more realistic. Your view reminds me of Polish government in 1939. They would “stand tall” to everybody around and they were first to leave the country.

do you think the fact that we want to solve this issue means that we look for trouble ?

we proposse "zero option" we close history and move forward ... if Germans want to count money we can count (I would like to see balance) ... maybe small miniority of Germans want to do it but it is really annoying ... so official agreement would be the best solution

Not sure if this was mentioned in the past 23 pages, but apparantly Poland has been donating a lot of blood to Germans lately. i saw this on the news but no article ...sorry.

we cooperate on many levels and cooperation is really good ... but on some levels we just cant cooperate (look on previous pages)
BubbaWoo  33 | 3502  
14 Dec 2007 /  #630
A laughing stock for who?

when a country's president is referred to as a potato its normally an indication that someone is laughing somewhere

do not deserve to call yourself Polish

i wouldnt dream of calling myself polish, perish the thought, but i do have a vested interest in the country and would like to see it prosper

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