it is doubtful if Poland's stats are different.
prove it...
800 thousand Polish women are victims of domestic abuse yearly
prove it...
pgtx, you know better than that. You are asking me to prove a negative. If someone believes Polish abuse is somehow special (maybe it is?) than there should be ample evidence of it.
Lir
26 Mar 2009 / #93
Men getting framed for abuse is a big deal; it ruins their lives.
Ok. So how many men are we actually talking about here ? Either in USA, Europe or the World collectively .
Let's see the figures then debate the size of the problem here. I don't think anyone is denying that this could and probably may happen, but I would suspect that the figures are very small indeed ?
Men falsely accused of rape carry a stigma;
Again how many ? Let's see the figures then ? Have you been a victim of the above two scenarios then ?
Objectivity is a harsh master.
Yes it is ? That's why it is very important to debate with the correct information <always> !
You do tend to generalise rather than debate with supporting facts. Throwing the 'Felbert Studies' into your argument means nothing. Quote relevant facts and figures for a more meaningful discussion please !
szkotja2007 27 | 1497
26 Mar 2009 / #94
Some of the figures I have read -
12% of all domestic abuse victims are male
5% of male abuse cases are of the same gender.
That was in the earlier link I posted.
I do think the title of this thread should have a question mark after it as the true figure of all domestic abuse is unknown.
It could be lower or it could be under reported for obvious reasons.
12% of all domestic abuse victims are male
5% of male abuse cases are of the same gender.
That was in the earlier link I posted.
I do think the title of this thread should have a question mark after it as the true figure of all domestic abuse is unknown.
It could be lower or it could be under reported for obvious reasons.
If someone believes Polish abuse is somehow special (maybe it is?) than there should be ample evidence of it.
it's not special, but the law treats a female or a man differently in PL and the US... in the US, cops take care of the person right away (charges, jail, consequences), while in PL, cops will come over to see what's going on, make notes, and leave... until somebody doesn't get hurt or die.... then the second thoughts show up...
that's why i want us to focus on the problem in Poland because the law is different in ever country, and don't compare it to the US...
May be of interest -
The Common Law of England permitted a man to beat his wife, provided the diameter of the stick used was not wider than the diameter of his thumb, hence, the term "Rule of Thumb."
The Common Law of England permitted a man to beat his wife, provided the diameter of the stick used was not wider than the diameter of his thumb, hence, the term "Rule of Thumb."
Oh, thank you, thank you. Your comment shows what's wrong with current culture. You've been fed this feminist bullcrap and its been repeated so often that people accept it.
Check out myth #4 (feel free to check them all).
dadi.org/iwf_myth.htm
prove it...
Let's see the figures then debate the size of the problem here. I don't think anyone is denying that this could and probably may happen, but I would suspect that the figures are very small indeed ?
I posted a link to data in Polish. I'll try again:
The enclose table has the following headings (left to right, except for leftmost column, dots added for spacing)
Violence by the partner (victims)..Violence towards the partner (culprits)
All | Women | Men..................... All | Women | Men
The leftmost column values Top to Bottom :
Type of Bahavior (heading, cell 0,0)
Name calling
Threats
Humiliation
Slapping (on the face)
Pushing/pulling
Beating
Financial Blackmail
Results by CBOS 2002
CBOS is Polish Stats organization.
Source (in Polish)
reklamaspoleczna.blox.pl/html
TABELA_1.jpg
Ok. So how many men are we actually talking about here ? Either in USA, Europe or the World collectively .
Let's see the figures then debate the size of the problem here. I don't think anyone is denying that this could and probably may happen, but I would suspect that the figures are very small indeed ?
Let's see the figures then debate the size of the problem here. I don't think anyone is denying that this could and probably may happen, but I would suspect that the figures are very small indeed ?
Deal. Have to go now (busy life). I'll do it tomorrow. I'm glad you asked.
Have you been a victim of the above two scenarios then ?
No! I don't have to be a victim to care.
You do tend to generalise rather than debate with supporting facts. Throwing the 'Felbert Studies' into your argument means nothing.
I suggest that an objective reading of my many posts will show that I've been more specific than any person opposing me. You must not have read my posts to make such a comment.
If you don't believe what hundreds of studies by experts in their field show than you won't believe anything.
Have fun with this (spend some time). I've got to go (poker game with the boys tonight}
ejfi.org/DV/dv-2.htm#pgfId-396197
Lir
26 Mar 2009 / #99
I do think the title of this thread should have a question mark after it as the true figure of all domestic abuse is unknown.
To be fair this thread was started by Miranda '800 thousand Polish women are victims of domestic abuse yearly' and she has made it clear she only wishes to focus on women's domestic abuse.
I don't think anyone is denying that doestic abuse can happen to both sexes. Maybe it would be better for Zimmy or A.N. Other to start up a thread about either Male domestic Abuse or Both sexes domestic abuse. Then each can concentrate on the part they wish too.
So go ahead Zimmy, start up your own thread. Will be interesting.
Apologies to Miranda for my post 95. I have to admit I did not read the whole of the thread before posting. I think a new thread should be started so your thread can concentrate on what you wished to discuss in the first place.
Thank you for the information on the statistics z darius , I'm looking at them now and they do look interesting too.
I think that in most cases of domestic abuse a larger number go unreported whichever Country the person lives in;(
:)
OP miranda
26 Mar 2009 / #100
the problem in Poland is a legal one. There is no comparable law protecting the victim (supported by police, court of law, shelters) an there is lets say in the US/UK and other countries.
There are many reasons for that.
Firstly, the political system in Poland has changed and with the new economy, women and children ended up in dire position, where there is little money to go around, no place to go.
Secondly, divorce in Poland is not often an alternative for the victims due to little social support, stigma attached to divorce and to domestic abuse.
Domestic abuse is ignored, swept under the rug by friends, family members, who often deny what they see. In such a situation, the woman is in a very difficult situation, because she is financially dependent on her partner, will probably get little support, and even if she would, she would probably be shunned and accused of some of the responsibility for the abuse. The gender roles in Poland are very defined still and with the sliding economy, they are more pronounced. This is a general picture made by me through years of observations. I am not saying that this is the only picture, but it is pretty accurate.
US/UK is different since the law concerning domestic abuse is well put in place. The law has been implemented because there was a NEED for such a regulations. I am sure there are cases of abuse by some, but in general the law protects more people than NOT.
There is almost no law specific to women issues in Poland and that was what I wanted to concentrate on.
When it comes to abortion, some people probably know that a lot of Polish women go to the UK to have one. That just proves how Polish government is taking care of its own citizens, which is a great shame and the cost of British taxpayers' money.
here is a link of a NGO American organization who came up with the characteristics of the situation of women in Poland.
mnadvocates.org/sites/608a3887-dd53-4796-8904-997a0131ca54/uploads/Poland_domestic_violence_(2002)_10-18-2002_2.PDF
There are many reasons for that.
Firstly, the political system in Poland has changed and with the new economy, women and children ended up in dire position, where there is little money to go around, no place to go.
Secondly, divorce in Poland is not often an alternative for the victims due to little social support, stigma attached to divorce and to domestic abuse.
Domestic abuse is ignored, swept under the rug by friends, family members, who often deny what they see. In such a situation, the woman is in a very difficult situation, because she is financially dependent on her partner, will probably get little support, and even if she would, she would probably be shunned and accused of some of the responsibility for the abuse. The gender roles in Poland are very defined still and with the sliding economy, they are more pronounced. This is a general picture made by me through years of observations. I am not saying that this is the only picture, but it is pretty accurate.
US/UK is different since the law concerning domestic abuse is well put in place. The law has been implemented because there was a NEED for such a regulations. I am sure there are cases of abuse by some, but in general the law protects more people than NOT.
There is almost no law specific to women issues in Poland and that was what I wanted to concentrate on.
When it comes to abortion, some people probably know that a lot of Polish women go to the UK to have one. That just proves how Polish government is taking care of its own citizens, which is a great shame and the cost of British taxpayers' money.
here is a link of a NGO American organization who came up with the characteristics of the situation of women in Poland.
mnadvocates.org/sites/608a3887-dd53-4796-8904-997a0131ca54/uploads/Poland_domestic_violence_(2002)_10-18-2002_2.PDF
niejestemcapita 2 | 561
26 Mar 2009 / #101
You write well Miranda.;}
US/UK is different since the law concerning domestic abuse is well put in place. The law has been implemented because there was a NEED for such a regulations.
Indeed. It's a shame that such an intimate area of people's lives have needed such regulation but it's a sign of the times I suppose. People are more isolated in today's society than ever before and family and friends are often not available to turn to.
Two married friends fell foul of the system in the UK. they were going through a divorce when one friday they had a drunken row and it turned into a (minor!!) tussle. The wife called the police and they took over. We still speculate about why she called the police but with hindsight I think it was simply because she was drunk. Anyway, from then on, the husband was more or less certain of being found guilty - even his defence said so. No jury in the country would support his claim that the two of them were fighting and in the end he pleaded guilty and was bound over for a year.
I don't mean to detract from the real need for a safety net for abused partners though. If the problem is recognised by society then there is every chance that the couple can get help before the police have to get involved. The sooner Poland realises the holy family unit is not so solid, men are not boorish morons who pay the bills and women are not there to produce citizens to defend the motherland then the happier we'll all be.
OP miranda
26 Mar 2009 / #103
Indeed. It's a shame that such an intimate area of people's lives have needed such regulation but it's a sign of the times I suppose. People are more isolated in today's society than ever before and family and friends are often not available to turn to.
good point indeed. It is a sign of times we live in.
Two married friends fell foul of the system in the UK. they were going through a divorce when one friday they had a drunken row and it turned into a (minor!!) tussle. The wife called the police and they took over. We still speculate about why she called the police but with hindsight I think it was simply because she was drunk. Anyway, from then on, the husband was more or less certain of being found guilty - even his defence said so. No jury in the country would support his claim that the two of them were fighting and in the end he pleaded guilty and was bound over for a year.
that is a really unfortunate example of what the alcohol can make people do.
If the problem is recognised by society then there is every chance that the couple can get help before the police have to get involved.
very, very true.
The sooner Poland realises the holy family unit is not so solid, men are not boorish morons who pay the bills and women are not there to produce citizens to defend the motherland then the happier we'll all be.
even though it is a generalization, it paints well some sentiments still present within the Polish family environment. Well done MrBubbles.
You write well Miranda.;}
Thank you:)
update: I have written an enquiry to the source of those statistics- Feminoteka and I am waiting for their reply.
szkotja2007 27 | 1497
27 Mar 2009 / #104
You've been fed this feminist bullcrap and its been repeated so often that people accept it.
Yep, hands up to that Zimmy. That post didn't contribute much to the thread and could have been misleading.
It is interesting that your link is related to a Divorce site. I believe that when it comes to divorce and particularly children, there is a bias towards the female.
( Not trying to be inflammatory - just an opinion )
It's very true in the context of Scotland, brethren, yes. How about in Poland? Any thoughts from the Poles? Invariably, custody goes to the mother and sporadic access goes to the father. I read a lot on the Scots law of divorce. It was enough to make a grown man cry, it was ;)
OP miranda
27 Mar 2009 / #106
The Common Law of England permitted a man to beat his wife, provided the diameter of the stick used was not wider than the diameter of his thumb, hence, the term "Rule of Thumb."
that is true, so it seems that violence against women have had a legal background.
Harry
27 Mar 2009 / #107
No, it is not true.
europrofem.org/contri/2_04_en/en-viol/28en_vio.htm
europrofem.org/contri/2_04_en/en-viol/28en_vio.htm
OP miranda
27 Mar 2009 / #108
No, it is not true.
common Law in England not in the US Harry. Opps.
szkotja2007 27 | 1497
27 Mar 2009 / #109
SEANUS - get in here.
Is there such a thing as British Common Law that Harry's link refers to ?
Henry Ansgar Kelly has recently written a comprehensive and convincing rebuttal of the claim that the phrase rule of thumb derives from "British Common Law
Is there such a thing as British Common Law that Harry's link refers to ?
Henry Ansgar Kelly has recently written a comprehensive and convincing rebuttal of the claim that the phrase rule of thumb derives from "British Common Law
No, English Law is from the Anglo-American system and Scotland from the Romano-Germanic, quite distinct backgrounds really.
I think he's spinning a yarn here.
I think he's spinning a yarn here.
OP miranda
27 Mar 2009 / #111
SEANUS - get in here.
well, I was told by the prof at uni if that counts for anything, but I guess Seanus can confirm, or not.
szkotja2007 27 | 1497
27 Mar 2009 / #112
No, English Law is from the Anglo-American system and Scotland from the Romano-Germanic, quite distinct backgrounds really.
Thanks, thats what I thought - saves me from reading the rest of the article - if a piece is faulty in the first sentence then the rest aint gong to be much better.
I was told by the prof at uni if that counts for anything,
Question everything !!
Harry
27 Mar 2009 / #113
well, I was told by the prof at uni if that counts for anything, but I guess Seanus can confirm, or not.
Your professor was wrong. And so is anybody who claims that.
The 'rule of thumb', however, turns out to be an excellent example of what may be called a feminist fiction. Is is not to be found in William Blackstone's treatise on English common law. On the contrary, British law since the 1700s and our American laws predating the Revolution prohibit wife beating, though there have been periods and places in which the prohibition was only indifferently enforced.
That the phrase did not even originate in legal practice could have been ascertained by any fact-checker who took the trouble to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary, which notes that the term has been used metaphorically for at least three hundred years to refer to any method of measurement or technique of estimation derived from experience rather than science.
That the phrase did not even originate in legal practice could have been ascertained by any fact-checker who took the trouble to look it up in the Oxford English Dictionary, which notes that the term has been used metaphorically for at least three hundred years to refer to any method of measurement or technique of estimation derived from experience rather than science.
straightdope.com/columns/read/2550/does-rule-of-thumb-refer-to-an-old-law-permitting-wife-beating
What I will say is that there was no definitive obiter dictum on the matter. If he really said it, it would be easy to trace. In a law library, I could find it for you in seconds.
It's more likely that it emanated in/from the late 17-th century and assumed its heuristic quality. Axioms evolved in a similar fashion.
In Scotland, we have the law of reasonable chastisement but it is applied first and foremost to children.
It's more likely that it emanated in/from the late 17-th century and assumed its heuristic quality. Axioms evolved in a similar fashion.
In Scotland, we have the law of reasonable chastisement but it is applied first and foremost to children.
OP miranda
27 Mar 2009 / #115
Question everything !!
I do, but she was right, wasn't she?
szkotja2007 27 | 1497
27 Mar 2009 / #116
I dont think this can ever be robustly proved or disproved.
Harry
27 Mar 2009 / #117
No, English Law is from the Anglo-American system and Scotland from the Romano-Germanic, quite distinct backgrounds really.
I think he's spinning a yarn here.
I think he's spinning a yarn here.
You will note that Henry Ansgar Kelly is rebutting the claim that that the phrase rule of thumb derives from "British Common Law . . .". He is not making the claim that British common law exists.
Well, he should have been specific then. To imply that English Law and Scots Law are the same is well wide of the mark.
I vaguely remember doing this case in jurisprudence. Something about a cartoon distorting reality.
The verdict is not clear cut and the jury is out. That's the state of play.
I vaguely remember doing this case in jurisprudence. Something about a cartoon distorting reality.
The verdict is not clear cut and the jury is out. That's the state of play.
Harry
27 Mar 2009 / #119
It's more likely that it emanated in the late 17-th century and assumed its heuristic quality. Axioms evolved in a similar fashion.
If it did emanate then, it would have been faulty: English (and Welsh) law at that time forbade wife beating.
OP miranda
27 Mar 2009 / #120
I dont think this can ever be robustly proved or disproved.
fair enough, I will do my search again because I am curious.
Henry,
I hope you not going to have a long argument over who is right. Do you think you can contribute some of your valuable observations from Poland in order to stay on topic?