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800 thousand Polish women are victims of domestic abuse yearly


Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Mar 2009 /  #121
English judges were prone to a bit of wacky reasoning which makes it plausible but not a matter of fact.

It might just have been a quip in the courtroom for a laugh and taken as contributing to the ratio decidendi.

Yes, back to the topic.
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #122
Well, he should have been specific then. To imply that English Law and Scots Law are the same is well wide of the mark.

Why should he have been more precise? He was rebutting a claim. If he had rebutted the claim by saying that "There is no such thing as British common law." and left it at that, no doubt feminists everywhere would have called for his testicles.

I vaguely remember doing this case in jurisprudence. Something about a cartoon distorting reality.

Judge Thumb

"He was caricatured as "Judge Thumb" by James Gillray in 1782, implying that Buller had asserted that a husband could thrash his wife with impunity provided that the stick was no bigger than his thumb, although the existence of such an assertion in English common law has been questioned." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Francis_Buller,_1st_Baronet

The verdict is not clear cut and the jury is out. That's the state of play.

The simple fact is that the earliest citation of the 'rule of thumb' comes from Sir William Hope's The Compleat Fencing-Master, second edition, 1692, page 157: "What he doth, he doth by rule of thumb, and not by art." The first mention of the rule supposedly being linked to beating women comes 90 years later!
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Mar 2009 /  #123
When rebutting a claim, you should be accurate as to your sources. It's actually a lie to call it British law when it may only have existed in England.

That's the one, Harry, the very cartoon. 14 years ago now I saw that, sheesh.

On the third point, that would appear to be the case. From a detailed knowledge of many case reports, I can safely say that the writing of the 'rule of thumb' would've been crystal clear and easily found/findable.
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #124
When rebutting a claim, you should be accurate as to your sources. It's actually a lie to call it British law when it may only have existed in England.

But he was being accurate. The claim is "Emory L.J. 855, *874
Historically, wife beating has been an acceptable practice both socially and legally. The right of a husband to physically chastise his wife was inherited from the British Common Law tradition which considered married people to be one person, specifically the husband, n91 and, which gave the husband who beat his wife immunity from prosecution."

userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/ruleofthumb.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Mar 2009 /  #125
You talk like one of those corpus juris guys, Harry. No offence. Streamlining and harmonisation of legal principles and rulings is hard. You can have a codex of certain things but some things are best left untouched.

So you are telling me that England's common law tradition is exactly the same as Scotland's?

Anyway, this should be a matter for PM. We are hijacking.
Harry  
27 Mar 2009 /  #126
So you are telling me that England's common law tradition is exactly the same as Scotland's?

The only person saying that something called "British common law existed is L.J. Emory!

Personally I prefer the terms "Scots law" "Northern Ireland law" and "the law of England and Wales".

But coming back to the topic: there is no evidence at all that the term 'rule of thumb' comes from a law allowing men to beat women and there is ample evidence that the term does not come from such.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
27 Mar 2009 /  #127
I also found it a little odd that a judge would use that line. It is tenable at best but unlikely.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
27 Mar 2009 /  #128
US/UK is different since the law concerning domestic abuse is well put in place. The law has been implemented because there was a NEED for such a regulations. I am sure there are cases of abuse by some, but in general the law protects more people than NOT

Cases of abuse by some?
I can't speak about UK but in the US with all the laws the number of domestic abuse against women is not very far behind that in Poland.

According to American Institute onDomestic Violence :

- 94% of corporate security directors rank domestic violence as a high security risk.
- 78% of Human Resource Directors identify domestic violence as a substantial employee problem.
- 56% of corporate leaders are personally aware of specific employees who are affected by domestic violence.
- 85-95% of all domestic violence victims are female.
- Over 500,00 women are stalked by an intimate partner each year.
- 5.3 million women are abused each year.
- 1,232 women are killed each year by an intimate partner.
- Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women.
- Women are more likely to be attacked by someone they know rather than by a stranger.
- Homicide is the leading cause of death for women in the workplace.
- Of the approximately 1.7 million incidents of workplace violence that occur in the US every year, 18,700 are committed by an intimate partner: a current or former spouse, lover, partner, or boyfriend/girlfriend.

aidv-usa.com/statistics.htm

The key, yet again is home and upbringing. The law, while certainly helpful., usually ends up punishing culprits when it's already too late to save the victims.

Btw. that article in the Polish papers states that 800K women are abused and then, without much clarity as how they got their stats, they claim that every 3rd woman in Poland is abused. Does it mean there are only 2.4 million women in a nation of about 38 million? Or does it mean that the the figure of 800K is incorrect?

Also, I have to ask about the statistical methods used to achieve the results.
One thing to be considered is the type of what is defined as abuse. The spectrum is wide. From a simple statement "go to hell" to murder. How are the cases counted? Let's look at a sample, not unusual, scenario:

The guy gets drunk and comes home at 3 am in the morning (emotional abuse, she was worried)
He trips over, knocks a char over and a few books fall off the shelf (another case emotional abuse)
She yells at him (verbal abuse)
Look at you, she says. you just wasted the money we need for the [..whatever it is they need...] (making him feel guilty is emotional abuse)

Oh shut up, he answers - (verbal abuse)
I earn all the money anyway, get a job and then we'll talk (economic blackmail)
He goes to bed and falls asleep ignoring her further attempts at continuing the conversation (emotional abuse)

So that short scene shows us 7 instances of domestic abuse. Or is it just one?

Again, I am not denying there is domestic abuse in Poland and elsewhere, and even one case is too many, but people are prone to sensational headlines that, frankly, sometimes will skew reality either way.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,602  
27 Mar 2009 /  #129
Harry has it quite right.
amos2008.wordpress.com

""...The 'rule of thumb' story is an example of revisionist history that feminists happily fell into believing. It reinforces their perspective on society, and they tell it as a way of winning converts to their angry creed..."
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
27 Mar 2009 /  #130
They probably meant that a third of women in Poland have been abused at some point.

""...The 'rule of thumb' story is an example of revisionist history that feminists happily fell into believing. It reinforces their perspective on society, and they tell it as a way of winning converts to their angry creed..."

Well, when even the English wedding ceremony asks the wife to love honour and obey her husband, the feminista have a lot to work with...
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
27 Mar 2009 /  #131
Well, when even the English wedding ceremony asks the wife to love honour and obey her husband, the feminista have a lot to work with...

It's all women's fault anyway. They started all the misery, and they were even the first who used the fruit of man's hard labor - the first ruthless capitalists ;)
MrBubbles 10 | 614  
27 Mar 2009 /  #132
It's all women's fault anyway. They started all the misery,

I never really followed that - I guess God doesn't like women much. Also where did they get their hair cut?
lesser 4 | 1,311  
27 Mar 2009 /  #133
Is this the amount reported to the police? or how do they come up with this figure?.

This is silly feminist organization providing these numbers. This figure is out of the sky, the same about their reports about number of illegal abortions.

- women are not more emotional,

Please :)

When it comes to abortion, some people probably know that a lot of Polish women go to the UK to have one. That just proves how Polish government is taking care of its own citizens, which is a great shame and the cost of British taxpayers' money.

Should RP invade the UK to take care about innocent Poles being murdered?

Anyway your logic leads to slavery. If you think that task of government is to care about its own citizens then this is road towards totalitarianism. The task of government is not disturb its own citizens in their everyday life and provide internal and external security.
OP miranda  
27 Mar 2009 /  #134
This is silly feminist organization providing these numbers.

well, find me a non-silly source then.

This figure is out of the sky, the same about their reports about number of illegal abortions.

can you prove it with another data???

The task of government is not disturb its own citizens in their everyday life and provide internal and external security.

well, then the Polish government should not make an attempt to have every pregnancy registered.
Calicoe 2 | 133  
28 Mar 2009 /  #135
It's all women's fault anyway. They started all the misery, and they were even the first who used the fruit of man's hard labor - the first ruthless capitalists ;)

And look at the way he is scratching his head in that illustration: "uhm, why is my brain going all fuzzy, and what is happening to my fig leaf?" Poor guy; he doesn't stand a chance.

I never really followed that - I guess God doesn't like women much. Also where did they get their hair cut?

I think God is fine with women. It's the men from the temples, synagogues, churches and mosques who had it out for us; still do.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
28 Mar 2009 /  #136
And look at the way he is scratching his head in that illustration: "uhm, why is my brain going all fuzzy, and what is happening to my fig leaf?" Poor guy; he doesn't stand a chance.

Indeed. And he's got no liability insurance either :)
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Mar 2009 /  #137
well, find me a non-silly source then.

Police statistics, however we can imagine that not everything is reported.

can you prove it with another data???

Hypothetically, if feminists would provide number of aliens living in Mars and I would reject their claims. Would you insist that I should provide another data?

This is obvious that this is impossible to find out. People who run criminal activity are not willing to inform anybody.

well, then the Polish government should not make an attempt to have every pregnancy registered.

Absolutely, this is not necessary. However murder with premeditation should be punished by death penalty. So if they will somehow find out about such proceeder then you know what...
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Mar 2009 /  #138
Murder is always with premeditation, it is a mens rea crime, lesser. Other data, not another data.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Mar 2009 /  #139
Of course you are right.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
28 Mar 2009 /  #140
Murder is always with premeditation

Is it?.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Mar 2009 /  #141
Yes, Seanny. Tell me, what is the difference between murder and manslaughter/homicide, Seanny?
SeanBM 35 | 5,808  
28 Mar 2009 /  #142
I can google if it you like?.
You are the one who studied law.
I just asked a question.
I did not know murder had to be premeditated.
So if you murder someone through negligence or accident, it goes under another category? such as manslaughter?.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Mar 2009 /  #143
Nah, I don't. It's just a bit of banter in the end. The Scots get a fair bit of stick too.

Anyway, back to the topic. I really feel that such instances can be avoided. There are many ways to let off steam but those guys just don't try hard enough. Walking away is an option which isn't used often enough.
OP miranda  
28 Mar 2009 /  #144
Nah, I don't. It's just a bit of banter in the end. The Scots get a fair bit of stick too.

looks like your true nature is coming through S.

Police statistics, however we can imagine that not everything is reported.

that the the point of my thread precisely. I have contacted the so called "silly" feminist organization in order to get more details and I am waiting for their reply.

Hypothetically, if feminists would provide number of aliens living in Mars and I would reject their claims.

are you suggesting that only feminists provide unrealistic data? Why would they do it?

This is obvious that this is impossible to find out.

It is not. Feminoteka did the proper survey, which gives approximate numbers. Read the links I have provided in the first post - this may clarify some of your doubts.

People who run criminal activity are not willing to inform anybody.

yes, but statistics don't come from the criminals, but from the victims of domestic abuse.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Mar 2009 /  #145
It depends if they are moderate or radical feminists.
lesser 4 | 1,311  
28 Mar 2009 /  #146
are you suggesting that only feminists provide unrealistic data?

Of course not, I think that most of polls is with result 'on demand'.

Why would they do it?

As far as feminist crowd is concentrated, I think that they are insane and most likely not very attractive women. But such tactic is nothing unusual, this is typical for many group of interests to provide some "shocking news" (no matter whether accurate or not). They do it, because this is good way to attract media attention. For minor groups like those feminists this is almost the only way to be shown in stupid TV. (I have watched TV debate when feminist activist openly admit it). Nearly all media outlets will decide to put 'shocking' over 'really important' news in their front pages. This is intellectual quality of their readers or viewers that push them in this direction.

It is not. Feminoteka did the proper survey, which gives approximate numbers. Read the links I have provided in the first post - this may clarify some of your doubts.

I have no idea how you came out with such conclusion after this reading...

yes, but statistics don't come from the criminals, but from the victims of domestic abuse.

My comment was about their abortion surveys. It simply kill their credibility.

It depends if they are moderate or radical feminists.

Even silly Woman's Party was supposed to dislike associations with this group. :)
southern 75 | 7,096  
28 Mar 2009 /  #147
or radical feminists.

We are lucky radical feminists have not prevailed because their program includes the eunuchization of all male population to get rid of the tyranny radically.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
28 Mar 2009 /  #148
True, southern. We must be on our guard
southern 75 | 7,096  
28 Mar 2009 /  #149
I will keep mine whatever it takes.(not just in the refrigerator).
PennBoy 76 | 2,436  
28 Mar 2009 /  #150
what the hell is up with these domestic abuse threads, if the man was drunk and doesnt remember i say it never happened lol

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