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Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446  
26 Nov 2008 /  #1
Even educated people can now be heard saying "tą sprawę", "weź tą rękę", "widzę tą koleżankę" in the accusative singular -- politicians, cultural celebrities, people with PhDs..,with the possible exception of Polish philologians. I beleive "tą" is still considered wrong, but when nearly everybody is using it, the grammatcially correct form will probably soon become a relic and oddity. The pressure towards uniformity in language is a stong force indeed!

Not so long ago (19th century), all inflected personal possessive adjectives (mój, swój, twój, nasz, wasz) took the -ę ending in the feminine singular: Kocham swoję żonę; Rozumiem waszę tragedię... but that did not make it into the 20th century, and the -ę ending has survived only in the fem. accsuative singular of the demonstrative pronoun "ta". How much longer? Which form do you use normally? Does it differ in speech and writing?
benszymanski 8 | 465  
26 Nov 2008 /  #2
The more frequently used the word then the slower it evolves. Apparently that's the general rule of thumb. I guess that is why tę has not fully evolved into tą yet like the other forms did and we get the situation now where what is technically correct sounds odd.

It makes life harder for me as a non-native speaker to know which form to go with..
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446  
26 Nov 2008 /  #3
Is there anyone (native speakers of Polish) on the forum who would write/type "tą" in a speech, dissertation, paper, obituary, etc.?
loco polaco 3 | 352  
26 Nov 2008 /  #4
if it's correct then yes "tą" gets written.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
26 Nov 2008 /  #5
One of the criteria of correctness (as taught in Polish high schools) is the frequency of use. This is not the only criterion though so alone, it may not be sufficient. Still, "TĘ" is, by some Polish linguists, considered hypercorrectness (negative term) when used in speech, but correct in writing.
mafketis 25 | 9,309  
26 Nov 2008 /  #6
IINM about 20 years ago tą kobietę was considered incorrect while speaking. For at least 10 years it's been considered okay in everyday speech but not approved of in very formal speech or any writing. I think within ten or 20 years it will be approved for written use to alongside tę which will linger on in extremely formal usage.

Also IINM the old instrumental plural ending -y was required in writing a long time after it was displaced by -(a)mi in speech.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
26 Nov 2008 /  #7
I cut out the marks altogether :) No time for them
aston - | 7  
27 Nov 2008 /  #8
Well, "tą książkę" is hard to say anyway. People are strange... ;)
Generally, we use "tą" when talking about Narzędnik "idę z tą panią", "idę z tą książką". When we go to Dopełniacz, it should be "tę".

I think the different thing is how educated people talk. Cause education in geography doesn't mean a linguistic consciousness. And as I remember my high school English lessons with native speakers, it doesn't concern only Polish people ;)

I think people don't even understand this, cause they prefer hiring people with English degree to translate from English to Polish (than people with degree in Polish). And in this kind of translation the perfect Polish language consciousness is needed which is NOT equivalent to 'mother tongue'.
Krzysztof 2 | 973  
27 Nov 2008 /  #9
When we go to Dopełniacz, it should be "tę".

You certainly meant biernik (accusative), because in gentive case (dopełniacz) it's "tej"
aston - | 7  
27 Nov 2008 /  #10
Yes, of course, I meant Biernik :)
Moonlighting 31 | 234  
27 Nov 2008 /  #11
By the way, I'd like to take the opportunity to ask if the biernik declension for "tamten" (feminine singular) has the same ending: "tamtę" (instead of "tamtą" you would normally expect there). Thanks.
benszymanski 8 | 465  
28 Nov 2008 /  #12
(feminine singular) has the same ending: "tamtę"

No - fem singular nominative is tamta, fem singular accusative is tamtą

It is just "ta" which is the odd one out and is written "tę" in the fem sing accusative when "tą" might be expected and is usually pronounced.
Moonlighting 31 | 234  
28 Nov 2008 /  #13
May I hack this thread again to ask one more thing about "ten vs. tamten" ?

For "ten", nominative and accusative of singular neuter is "to".
For "tamten", is it "tamto" or does it follow the regular ending, hence "tamte" ?

Thanks in advance,
benszymanski 8 | 465  
28 Nov 2008 /  #14
It follows the regular ending of "o" and therefore is "tamto".

Te and tamte are plural forms.

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