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Pan/Pani...usage changes for case distiction?


ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
28 Jan 2009 /  #1
How does pan/pani change when used as part of instrumental, accusative or genitive sentences?

Thread attached on merging:
Pan Adam Burczak...

If the nominative name is "Pan Adam Burczak" how would it change in instrumental, accusative and genitive case?

Do names ever take instrumental case?

How would the nominative names "Pan Marcin Kowalski, Pani Elżbieta Nowak and Pani Malgosia Kowalska" change in instrumental, accusative and genitive case?
Piorun - | 658  
28 Jan 2009 /  #2
Nominative (mianownik) (kto? Co?) (kto?) Pan Adam Burczak, Pan Marcin Kowalski, Pani Elżbieta Nowak, Pani Małgosia Kowalska

Genitive (dopełniacz) (kogo? Czego?) (kogo?) Pana Adama Burczaka, Pana Marcina Kowalskiego, Pani Elżbiety Nowak, Pani Małgosi Kowalskiej

Dative (celownik) (komu ?czemu?) (komu?) Panu Adamowi Burczakowi, Panu Marcinowi Kowalskiemu, Pani Elżbiecie Nowak, Pani Małgosi Kowalskiej

Accusative (biernik) (kogo? Czego?) (kogo?) Pana Adama Burczaka, Pana Marcina Kowalskiego, Pani Elżbiety Nowak, Pani Małgosi Kowalskiej

Instrumental (narzędnik) (z kim? z czym?) (z kim?) z Panem Adamem Burczakiem, z Panem Marcinem Kowalskim, z Panią Elżbietą Nowak, z Panią Małgosią Kowaską

Locative (miejscownik) (o kim? o czym?) (okim?) o Panu Adamie Burczaku, o Panu Marcinie Kowalskim, o Pani Elżbiecie Nowak, o Pani Małgosi Kowalskiej

Vocative (wołacz) (o!) o! Pan Adam Burczak, o! Pan Marcin Kowalski, o! Pani Elżbieta Nowak, o! Pani Małgosia Kowalska
pomorzanin  
28 Jan 2009 /  #3
It will be like this:

Genitive:
Pana Adama Burczaka
Pana Marcina Kowalskiego
Pani Elżbiety Nowak
Pani Małgosi (Małgorzaty) Kowalskiej

Accusative:
Pana Adama Burczaka
Pana Marcina Kowalskiego
Panią Elżbietę Nowak
Panią Małgosię (Małgorzatę) Kowalską

Instrumental:
Panem Adamem Burczakiem
Panem Marcinem Kowalskim
Panią Elżbietą Nowak
Panią Małgosią (Małgorzatą) Kowalską
Piorun - | 658  
28 Jan 2009 /  #4
Correction pomorzanin is right in Accusative: it should be Panią Elżbietę Nowak
Panią Małgosię Kowalską. I guess that’s why I’m not a teacher.
OP ArcticPaul 38 | 233  
28 Jan 2009 /  #5
Excellent Piorun & pomorzanin.
Thanks a million.

I'm just at the Genitive Singulat stage of things so Dative, Locative and Vocative are not necessary yet but I'm intrigued.

When are INSTRUMENTAL, ACCUSATIVE and GENITIVE the appropriate case to use?
osiol 55 | 3,922  
28 Jan 2009 /  #6
I am editing in these first two sentences after posting the rest of it. Wait for a professional because I may have omitted some important information or even made one or two mistakes.

INSTRUMENTAL

jestem, jesteś, jest, są...
pod, nad (under, over - not so common when talking about persons)
z (with - quite a common one this, I reckon)

GENITIVE

Often used with negation, but also with some verbs where one might expect accusitive.
Bez... (without...)
Nie ma... (This isn't...)
Szukać... (to look for...)

ACCUSATIVE

I don't know. Fall back on this one if the thing or person is the subject of the sentence.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595  
19 Apr 2009 /  #7
Merged: Proszę Pani / Proszę Panią

Can someone please tell me the difference between Proszę Pani / Proszę Panią (obviously it's different grammatical cases, but I'm thinking of the meaning and when to use what). Thanks in advance! :)
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240  
19 Apr 2009 /  #8
Proszę Pani

excuse me, madam, or 'miss!' when talking to a teacher at school

Proszę Panią

i am asking/begging you, madam

so basically the first one is to get a woman's attention, the second one to ask a woman about something
loolee - | 10  
19 Apr 2009 /  #9
Saying Proszę Pani is the correct form, unfortunatelly U can hear it quite often as people often don't care;( Did it help?:)
Vincent 9 | 861   Moderator
19 Apr 2009 /  #10
so basically the first one is to get a woman's attention, the second one to ask a woman about something

Could you please tell us about the rules for Pan, Pana and Panu?
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240  
19 Apr 2009 /  #11
proszę panią is gramatically correct. but like i just said, proszę pani is what you use to call a woman and get her attention.

Could you please tell us about the rules for Pan, Pana and Panu?

what rules lol? to get a man's attention you say Proszę Pana. or if you wanna be rude, shout 'E, Panie!!' lol...
loolee - | 10  
19 Apr 2009 /  #12
The form Proszę Pani is used when U want to gain attetion or ask about something ( children at school say it to their teacher, for example) the other form is incorrect, but as I wrote it is unfortunatelly commonly used;( by Polish people.

The rules Pan, Pana, Panu are based upon noun declination, similarly to Pani/Panią.
If we ask who?( meaning: Who is that man over there?) then we use: It is Pan Kowalski (To jest Pan Kowalski). If we ask Whom? or What? ( meaning: Whom do you like? ) Then we say: I like Pana Kowalskiego (Lubię Pana Kowalskiego) If we ask: about whom? then we use the form Panu ( meaning: Whom is the story about?) Then we use: It is the story about Panu Kowalskim ( To jest historia o Panu Kowalskim)

Ps. Proszę Panią is totally INCORRECT which is often heard in a shop: Proszę Panią a kilo of apples please, it should be Proszę Pani a kilo of apples please!
Vincent 9 | 861   Moderator
19 Apr 2009 /  #13
The rules Pan, Pana, Panu are based upon noun declination, similarly to Pani/Panią.

Thanks loolee,, it always confuses me:) I have also heard dzień dobry Panu and dzień dobry Panie Janku
loolee - | 10  
19 Apr 2009 /  #14
Yes and these are both correct, generally we use the form Pani/Panią/ Panu/Pan if we want to be polite (usually the person is older, we want to express our respect, or the relation is more formal) The second case is similar, but we are adding person's name (it is a bit less formal then)
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240  
19 Apr 2009 /  #15
Proszę Panią is totally INCORRECT which is often heard in a shop: Proszę Panią a kilo of apples please, it should be Proszę Pani a kilo of apples please!

in this context it is not correct, but it is gramatically correct.

proszę panią tutaj do mnie
proszę panią o minutę rozmowy

perfectly correct
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
19 Apr 2009 /  #16
It all depends on what the object is. I often hear proszę panią but it's not the soundest grammar out there.
mafketis 29 | 10,297  
19 Apr 2009 /  #17
I have also heard dzień dobry Panu and dzień dobry Panie Janku

dzień dobry Panu ; panu = dative (to you) literally: "good day to you

dzieę dobry Panie Janku = vocative (calling someone by name) literally "good day, (Mr) John!"
gumishu 11 | 5,857  
19 Apr 2009 /  #18
dzień dobry Panu - is one bit you cannot put a comma inbetween - you can translate it as good morning to you sir

dzień dobry, Panie Janku - coma makes sense here - this one translates good morning Mr John (sort of)
ona 2 | 17  
6 Aug 2009 /  #20
Merged: pani/pan & name change

Ok I forgot some grammar rules since I've left PL and I need a refresher on this.
I know you change the ending of a name when addressing someone as pani/pan.
Someone has addressed me as "Pani Natalio..." how would I address them?
If I spoke to some named Ryszard, I'd say Panu Ryszardie....? Ack, that sounds really wrong.

Any help?
JustysiaS 13 | 2,240  
6 Aug 2009 /  #21
If I spoke to some named Ryszard, I'd say Panu Ryszardie....?

Panie Ryszardzie
ona 2 | 17  
6 Aug 2009 /  #22
Dzieki Justysia.

Is there a rule of thumb to follow on using pan/pani?
gumishu 11 | 5,857  
6 Aug 2009 /  #23
females are Pani (in nominative - you know - the cases)

males are Pan

Pani is also vocative case,

vocative case of Pan is Panie,

vocative case is used to address people directly

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