UK, Ireland / Poles to stay or not to stay [in Ireland] - is there a question? [25]

Merged: Many Poles to stay on despite Great Irish Depression


globalpost.com/dispatch/ireland/090425/amid-economic-downturn-poles-ireland-face-tough-choice

UK, Ireland / Poles flee N. Irleand homes after World Cup riots [70]


Im surprised that comment went unchallenged. What ridiculous statements. What do you mean by "they do not regard Poles as equal" and "the folk element of these countries" as well as "slavic logic"?

I dont think you really get it. Would these Polish hooligans have gone to Belgrade or Kosovo and acted in the way that they did? No they wouldnt. However, due to their ignorance of this part of the world (and yours judging by your statements) they thought that they could do as they pleased in Belfast.

Unfortunately as one of the previous posters pointed out, Belfast is not your average city. It is not long out of a thirty year conflict where large parts of the city were not ruled by the police or "the law" (which you say will protect loyalist thugs who burn people out of their homes - rubbish by the way), but rather by paramilitary groupings. The Polish hooligans who attacked elderly people and broke up homes in and around Windsor Park are very lucky that they were not killed. It is quite likely that some of the houses in that area contained high-grade weaponry which could have been produced if an order to do so had been received.

Poles posting here seem to think that this was a hooligan battle which escalated. I would say that your "slavic logic" is disadvantaging you in this regard. These Polish hooligans did not take on fellow "hooligans" - because there are not really any organised hooligan groups to take on. What they did was march into the middle of a loyalist part of Belfast which is governed to a large degree by a paramilitary grouping (not the police or the law) and proceeded to wreck the place. The only reason that some of them werent killed was because the police kept them in the ground for hours after the game as they negotiated with "community representatives" (that is code for paramilitary leaders by the way) to allow the Poles to get out of that part of Belfast without being seriously hurt or even killed.

The scum who then attacked innocent Polish peoples homes are not "hooligans" and have little to do with football. They are supporteres or members of organisations who have been involved in murdering people, many of them innocent, since the 1960s. Before you go blathering about applying "slavic logic" to a situation, you should really attempt to educate yourself on the subject first.

Football Hooliganism is about gangs of bored boys running around playing at being soldiers. What you are dealing with in Belfast is the real thing and this type of talk about revenge etc is infantile. If Polish hooligans really want to do something patriotic then dont start trouble at the return game in Poland because the people they will be attacking will be for the most part ordinary football supporters - not hooligans and not the people who are attacking Polish homes at the moment. All they would be doing is giving the same scum who are burning people out now, a further opporrtunity to purge their neighbourhoods of foreigners.

There are many precedents for this stuff if you really wanted to educate yourself on these matters. Look up Bombay Street in the atached link. It might help with the application of slavic logic to the reality on the ground.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Northern_Ireland_Riots

UK, Ireland / 33% of Poles in Ireland to return to Poland in 2009 [30]


To be honest I think the following, "the stock market severe decline and accounting/management fraud are all reasons why the history will not repeat

are reasons why history will not just repeat itself but why it may exceed the extremities of the 1930s/40s. Of course I hope Im wrong but I think not. IMO the system of life we have all become accustomed to is finished. Whats next is anybodys guess...

UK, Ireland / No Irish Need Apply - Polish Builders get their own back [42]

While I dont believe that this has happened (yet!) it probably will - our world has turned full circle - we're back where we started boys

Its like Deja Vu all over again....

UK, Ireland / What do Polish people think of Ireland and the Irish? [50]

To be honest Flynners I think youre about two years behind the curve. The Poles are gone. My Missus is still here but most are either gone or considering going home.

Look at the other thread where Paddy is being discriminated against in Poland FFS!!! While I dont think that is true (yet!) I think its probably a sign of things to some.

God forgive us the waste that has occurred in this country over the past decade. We had the chance to make something longlasting as we pissed it away on a decade long session...

I just hope (when we go to Poland for work) that the Poles will remember that the majority of us were decent and treated them well. Some not but the majority yes.

UK, Ireland / 33% of Poles in Ireland to return to Poland in 2009 [30]

Exactly. The last two world wars came directly from economic crises. Indeed, Weimar Germany shares a lot of smilarities with the type of consumption based societies which have been in evidence over the past couple of decades in western countries. The great crash then led to a period of extreme hardship for many. Something similar could be said to be happening at present. It may not have hit yet in Poland but many other countries are facing some serious circumstances from here on out.

While the history books may tell us that the problems of the 1930s were political in nature, the system was under real threat and war got the economies moving again. The reconstruction boom afterwards also made a lot of people rich. Its not beyond the bounds of possibilites that history will repeat itself.

UK, Ireland / 33% of Poles in Ireland to return to Poland in 2009 [30]

Yes. Ive seen them and agree that they are excellent exposés. Nontheless, whether the current crisis is engineered or not doesnt detract from the fact that it will have serious consequences for many people - not the bankers, brokers and speculators of course, but for ordinary people whose lives may be altered permanently and negatively as a result.

Personally, I think we are seeing the end of an era and may soon see the emergence of a new way. Whether this will be a genuine movement of the people or whether it will be engineered by the same people who brought us the so called "free" market remains to be seen.

UK, Ireland / 33% of Poles in Ireland to return to Poland in 2009 [30]

I dont think you realise the extent of what is occurring at the moment. We are seeing the natural result of a thirty year debt binge. Western economies, in particular the Anglo ones, have grown in official terms over the past decades. However, most of the growth has been in debt based service industries. Real exporting industries have been outsourced to Asia and Eastern Europe meaning that the economies are nearly entirely consumption based. The banks are now no longer able to provide the free cash to enable this false expansion to continue and as a result the economies must revert to reality. Effectively they must now give up the false growth of the past decades. It could take years for this to occur and IMO will result in mass social upheaval and may ultimately lead to WWIII. The economy may be "swizz" but its the basis for peoples livelihoods. Ireland (and the UK which is equally fucked) will provide extreme examples of what happens when capitalism is allowed run unchecked at the expense of the majority for the benefit of the few.

UK, Ireland / 33% of Poles in Ireland to return to Poland in 2009 [30]

Many Poles have left already and more are planning to leave. Its all very well having cheap rent, but if you've no job its not much good to you. Many of the Poles in Ireland also have mortgages to pay on overpriced investment properties back home so staying on wont really be an option for the majority.

UK, Ireland / POLISH ADMIRATION FOR THE IRISH GENIUS JAMES JOYCE [63]


Following your other posts on this thread thats a very strange post. You seem to have a dislike of Ireland and are weaving it into a thread on James Joyce, simply because of his nationality. Im sure anyone reading would be very interested to hear you explain what national driving habits or the collapse of the Irish property market have to do with Joyce's wanderings through a (car-free) Dublin.

It seems we've come full circle. Irish economy in ruins, re-appearance of high unemployment and emigration and now the re-emergence of that age-old pastime of Paddy bashing. It was ever thus...

Real Estate / Current state of the property market in Krakow [135]

Very interesting folks.

Just a point on the Irish angle. What I dont think any of you have addressed and, IMO, what really contributed to the Irish imaginary boom since 2001, was the setting of interest rates by the ECB at levels which suited Germany and France, countries which required low interest rates at the time. Ireland and Spain on the other hand both got practically free money shovelled into their economies at a time when they should really have been attempting to cool off. Without these low rates, as well as a lack of regulation in the lending market, the Irish boom since 2001 could not have happened.

The Irish economy which had been robust and competitive as well as growing steadily in the late 90s, subsequently turned into a debt based construction and service spin off junky where officially high growth rates masked an overdependence on the property monster. Its quite conceivable that we will experience a contraction of up to 5% next year and maybe 3/4% the year after due to our requirement to now wean the economy off construction and the associated spinoffs and start regaining a degree of competitiveness. Hard times ahead for many Im afraid.

As for Poland, based on the information which I can access (which wont be as accurate as what you lot have Im sure), I would fear for the property market, if not the real economy. It sems to me that Poland is very exposed to the FX markets at a very turbulent time, based on the proliferation of Swiss Franc mortgages people have taken on. The experiences of Iceland, Hungary and Ukraine dont augur well for non-euro aligned countries in such a situation. Hopefuly Im wrong.

Expect repatriated monies from the Uk and Ireland to decrease substantially also. There was a lot of money entering the Polish economy that manner. This money has now dried up and will leave a hole.

I think a lot depends on how indebted the average Pole is vis a vis his competitiors elsewhere. Irish people for example, are now the most indebted on earth. They are really 'fupped' for the forseeable future - perhaps a decade. The UK and the Yanks are in a similar position but American bankruptcy laws are softer and allow people walk away from debt easier. People who have not taken on massive debts will be able to ride this storm and hopefully emerge stronger at the other end in a couple of years because, make no mistake, the days of easy credit are gone forever. Back to old fashioned values - work and save and avoid debt like the plague. Im hoping Polish people are relatively debt free and as a result may actually benefit from this crisis in time. Still - a tough few years in store for everyone - and some more than others.

Real Estate / Current state of the property market in Krakow [135]

Good discussion here.

I notice that most of you guys are focussing on capital appreciation rather than rental returns. Can I ask what type of rental yield is achievable on a standard property in Warsaw, Krakow or Poznan? My (Polish) GF owns a place in Poznan so am particularly interested in that city.

My opinion (based on my reading about other property booms) would be that unless rental yield is attractive then you are in bubble territory.

Any replies appreciated

UK, Ireland / Poles Flee Ailing Irish Economy [18]

Sorry there Paris - I mixed my figure up a little. Rather than 92% of the Irish economy, it is actually 92% of Irish exports. See article below from the most reputable Irish business information source for reference.

finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1014922.shtml

A report on investment intentionsamong corporates in 15 countries, relating to the coming five years, which was published in June, said that had "the research been carried out five or ten years ago, Ireland might have expected to feature as a preferred place to invest for many respondents looking for a business-friendly, low tax environment.

Today, corporations are looking elsewhere, and Ireland is not cited in any of the areas covered by the study."

Multinationals are responsible for more than 90% of Ireland's exports.

Seán - its not the end of the world and as Shelley says, in some ways it may be a bit of a blessing that things get back to a semblance of normality. As you say theres a lot about the new Ireland which is ugly and while a bad recession will hurt many people it may help some to learn a bit of humility which may have been lacking over the past number of years.

As for Southern's comment about the poor Polish women ending up with Irish men, I dont hear too many complaints from these females - and I know a few;)

Strange that!

UK, Ireland / Poles Flee Ailing Irish Economy [18]


Hi Seán,

I appreciate your optimism but unfortunately Ireland is in big big trouble. Construction as 23% of GDP was absolute lunacy. When you consider the percentage which was associated with spinoffs from property on top of that and view these facts in terms of construction having practically halted - I mean almost entirely, I dont think it is overestimating the problems we are facing to say that we are heading into an oncoming shitstorm. Add in the credit crunch and a global recession occurring at the same time and I think the 80s are a best case scenario.

You will remember that in those days at least we could go to London or Boston for work. These escape valves wont exist this time. Add further the fact that practically everybody between the ages of 25 and 40 is either already or likely to be soon in negative equity on properties which are unlikely to regain their values for years. This strangles further the ability of people to be mobile and adapt. Wages cant come down as people need to pay their overpriced mortgages and so we remain uncompetitive. People werent saddled with these types of debts in the 80s. Its truly shocking to see the speed at which people are being laid off. Only today theres a report in the independent about Dell laying off 400 in Limerick.

If the multi-nationals begin to pull out we're back to the 1950s! They account for 92% of the Irish economy! Its scary to think what could happen. Suffice to say Im very pessimistic and getting a bit angry at the Government for encouraging the property monster which lies at the heart of everything. Depressing to say the least.

As for relationships between Irish and Poles, I think they tend to be good. Poles are seen in a very positive light here, especially the women ;). There seems to be a lot of Irish-Polish intermixing/marrying going on.

I think that the Irish view of the Poles is sometimes higher than the Polish view of the Irish. I think the Poles see Irish as having become a bit lazy over the past few years, especially younger Irish, who have not been willing to work at the same jobs their parents did for example. Although its looking like they wont have much of a choice now!

Real Estate / Current state of the property market in Krakow [135]

The reality is that the whole credit based property bubble which has occurred nearly everywhere over the past decade or so is over. The banks are no longer willing to finance the pyramid scheme and prices must therefore drop. Simple as. The credit crunch is not an aberration as many in the media would have you believe. It is actually a reversion to the mean. The real aberration were the unsound lending practices of the past 15 years. They are now gone and arent coming back.

Also, there is no such thing as a 10 year property "cycle" - despite what those within the industry may have us believe. Historically, over time property prices tend to match inflation. Bubbles follow identical patterns, be they in property, dotcoms, tulips or whatever. And make no mistake, what we are discussing is a bubble.

The era of self proclaimed property "investors" traversing the globe looking for "investement" opportunites are over. Many people have been left with a bleak indebted future. Some people got rich of course, but they are actually in the minority.

My advice to anyone still holding within the pyramid scheme is sell as quick as you can and get out now before its too late.

News / Thank you Ireland... EUCCP [81]


This guy Ganley is as shady a character as you could find. He is a multi-millionaire who made his money in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. In addition, he was involved in the Albanian Pyramid scheme debacle and he now has tele communications contracts from the US military in Iraq.

This article gives an insight into who and what he is.

indymedia.ie/article/87311

He is therefore linked to the American military neo-cons. I would suggest strongly examining credentials before offering him any support. Anyway, while he is claiming to have been the reason for the Irish No vote, the reality is that it was a mish mash of various groups including Marxists and the extreme right who campaigned against the Treaty.

IMO the vote was a protest vote against the Government in light of the fact that Ireland has slipped into recession and people are not happy generally. If it had been run a year earlier, its likely that it would have been passed.

Sarkozy, however has ensured that it will not be passed even if another one is held. His arrogance has been astounding and he is quite clearly an idiot. No country will do what the head of another tells it to in the tone that he has adopted. In the case of a country such as Ireland which was occupied for hundreds of years and which still has a strong folk memory of same, it is a definite no-no. The French diplomatic service must be embarrased by the antics of this jumped up little clown. He seems to crave attention, almost like a spoilt child.

UK, Ireland / WHAT AREAS IN LONDON ARE POPULAR FOR POLISH PEOPLE TO LIVE IN? [33]


I remember in the 80s and 90s all these were big Irish areas. Holloway Road, Camden as well. Kilburn used to be called "County Kilburn" because there were so many Irish there.

Sounds like the Poles are the new Irish!

UK, Ireland / The Polish experience in Ireland [15]

A good one about my GF's parents (Polish) who came to Ireland to visit her. I brought them to the pub to watch a rugby world cup match. They had never seen rugby before. While I was trying to explain some of the rules through my interpreter (GF), they at first attempted to look interested and serious. Eventually, however, they couldnt keep a straight face any longer and both of them just exploded in laughter and couldnt stop for about 20 minutes. Apparently the sight of groups of grown men jumping on each other and rolling around on the floor together was too much for them to take!!

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]


Dont worry about it. Maybe I should have been clearer.

As for your points with regard to the Yes campaign, I agree with you 100%. It was an absolute disgrace. We have have some of the worst and corrupt politicians in Europe and they really outdid themselves this time.

It is becoming more and more obvious that the establishment, including the political and business classes as well as the mainstream media, are not representative of the people whom they are supposed to represent. Therefore, while the veneer of democracy exists, the reality is that most people are being led in directions they are increasingly unsure of. I would say tis applies to all aspects of life and not just with regard to the EU. The rejection of this Treaty by Ireland, France and the Netherlands is a clear indication of this fact.

My concern for Ireland, however, is that in the world of realpolitik, we could now find ourselves isolated from the rest of Europe. Geographically, we are a small open economy in the middle of the Atlantic. We have relied on fostering goodwill with our neighbours in order to build trade and transform ourselves from a poor farming country into something resembling a modern state. I just hope that the goodwill is not lost forever and we are not punished by the larger states in some way. We are not Spain or Poland. Europe can easily function and continue in the direction it wants to go in without us. However, we cannot easily function without Europe...

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]


Why dont you read the whole thread before jumping in with hysterical comments such as the above? I've already explained that the tone of that post was one of "irony". Ill try to remember in future that attempts at humour dont seem to go down too well here.

Its quite clear to most people here in Ireland that the result of the referendum was a reaction to various issues, some of which had nothing to do with the EU. Those pushing for a yes vote, including the entire political establishment and mainstream media, ran a terrible campaign and did not explain the Treaty to the people. Brian Cowen, the Irish Prime Minister, even said he hadn't read it. Former prime minister Bertie Ahern, who only resigned a month ago amidst ongoing allegations of coruption, said only "loo-lahs" would vote No ("loo-lah" means a crazy person). The arrogance of these guys was apparent to the people and many voted No as a result.

Another aspect of this vote, IMO, was fears of people as to their own personal circumstances in a changed economic environment. Ireland is now in recession and fears of further immigration and possible competition for jobs was an issue (IMO). Some of the strongest No votes were recorded in working-class areas, whereas wealthier urban areas voted Yes.

A further issue for some members of the Irish business community was the fear that this Treaty could have paved the way for fixed tax rates across the EU, something the French have been very much in favour of and whose presidency begins shortly. Ireland currently has a competitive advantage in this regard with corporation tax rates of just 12.5%. This has attracted many US multinationals to come to Ireland. Without it, the Irish economy would have to compete on a level playing field with the rest of Europe and would more than likely be unable to do so.

As for those who advocated a No vote, far from being an enlightened group of concerned citizens, they consisted of a rag tag bunch of communists, former revolutionaries, far right extremists, conservative Catholics and a strange group called "Libertas" who are fronted by an Irish millionaire called Declan Ganley who made his money in Russia following the collapse of communism through buying and selling Uranium. Amongst his other "ventures" have been his setting up of the first Finance company in Albania prior to that country's pyramid scheme collapse a number of years ago. He also engages in business in Iraq and is involved with providing intelligence equipment to the US military intelligence. He was ably suported by another businessman with a background in military intelligence who is involved in doing business with the US military, namely Ulick McEvaddy.

indymedia.ie/article/87311

These guys stumped up their own cash to run the No campaign. Neither have ever displayed any political motivation before. Very strange...

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]


You might enjoy this so - hadnt heard this one in a long time!

youtube.com/watch?v=4VlPVzM97Eo

As for our economic prospect, Im very pessimistic to be honest. Im noticing a lot of retail businesses closing around Dublin city centre for the first time in many years.I wouldnt be surprised if the No vote on Lisbon was in response to people feeling a lot more insecure in their own personal circumstances.

Only this evening on RTE news, there was a piece about a FAS European jobs fair to be held in Dublin over the next couple of days. Construction companies from all over Europe (including Poland) coming to recruit people for projects in their own countries due to the large rise in Irish unemployment in the sector. While some wll obviously target Poles and other non-Irish people working here, many are targeting Irish people. It seems the boom times are over and we're heading back to the bad old days - for a time at least...

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]

I agree with you. Europe has been very good to Ireland but as you say, you cant expect people to vote for something they dont understand and fair play to them in that regard.

However, I cant see the politicians scrapping something they have been working on for seven years on the basis of us having voted No. I just hope we arent penalised in some way for this. God knows things are getting pretty bad economically of late and we may need all the friends we can get if the sh*t really begins to hit the fan.

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]

Jaysus - calm down there horse - Im Irish, and posting right now from the heart of the Liberties. Ever hear of "irony"? Now put on your ironic hat, re-read my post and if you still feel like commenting then maybe we can discuss.

The reference to the IRA was simplistic but it was made in the knowledge that this is a "Polish" forum wherever most people would not be expected to have a broad knowledge of Irish history.

*Note - absence of irony in following paragraph*

As for the result of this vote, while Im glad in a way that the establishment took a kick in the goolies, Im not sure if it will do us any good in the world of real politik. Fact is we're better off within the EU than outside of it. The noises coming from Germany and elsewhere already is that they may be contemplating moving ahead without us.

To me however, as per my initial post, the real issue is that this treaty would probably have been rejected in many of the countries of Europe. Nontheless, the entire political establishment are in favour. One has to wonder why and what is says about our democracy Europe-wide?

News / EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ? [126]

Im pretty sure it has been rejected. Some parts of Dublin are in favour but the rest of the country is against.

rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html

So the Irish say "thank you Europe for all your money over the past 30 years. Now **** Off".

Not very grateful of them. Damned Paddys daring to replicate the actions of the Dutch and French.

What does this say about further European integration? Have the populations of the old continent decided that we are now integrated enough and wish to integrate no further. What does it say about our "democracy" that everybody seems to value so highly? All of the European political establishment continent-wide are in favour while the electorates would appear to be generally against. Can we even say that we live in a "democracy" when our elected representatives are actually unrepresentative of our views?

Every political party in Ireland (bar one - the political manfestation of the IRA!) called for a Yes vote. Every media outlet including both newspapers, television and radio called for a Yes vote. Even the Catholic Church, while attempting to stay out of the debate, made noises in favour of the Yes campaign.

what does this say about the world in which we live?????

UK, Ireland / Are the Poles in England hated? [450]


You might enjoy this Skotzja - Great version from Dublin's finest

youtube.com/watch?v=Lcm3MmD7uyc

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


That doesnt change anything I said above - of course it is a disgusting murder of an innocent person - you will note that I acknowledged above that ETA are a murderous grouping who do not receive popular support. However, if Spain is serious about wanting to bring an end to the problem then the Spanish Government must be willing to explore ways of doing so, other than defeating them militarily.

All peace processes, be it South Africa, Palestine or Ireland, begin in such a manner - its the only way that peace can be achieved. If that is not what you want then by all means continue.

History / Polish Volunteers in the Spanish Civil War [140]


Yes - ETA would appear to have very little mandate these days and people seem not to want violence such as what you have outlined above.

However, to see ETA as the starting point for the problems of País Vasco is short sighted and displays more your own personal political convictions rather than providing a real analysis of the reasons behind the troubles in the region.

The Basques were treated very badly under Franco and for many of them it is hard to forgive and forget what happened during that time. Its understandable. Pretending it never happened will mean that it is never dealt with properly.

If people are supposed to be part of a country they should be treated as such. Franco always treated them as outsiders and Spain suffered as a result. You should look to the actions of El Caudillo if you want to find the real causes of why so many innocent Spaniards died over the years. ETA were a murderous reaction to Franco's policy of exclusion.