Real Estate / A unique LOFT project in LODZ [23]

sure. for inside pics see uscheiblera.pl/en/przykladoweLofty.asp

for outside see uscheiblera.pl/en/US-galeria.asp?idm=3&st=T

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

bigmoe, be careful with the brokers...

Real Estate / Whats available in Lodz, looking to buy several units [14]

1) how many?
2) which developer?
3) how much you bought? how much you think you can sell?

conversations in the copier room are not that bad! you can share a laugh at the conceited.

Real Estate / Whats available in Lodz, looking to buy several units [14]

come on, dont behave like that...! you are losing your temper mate!

isnt it remarkable that you and the other two members are not debating anything. everything looks so smooth between the 3 of you! in so many words...

(1) "i want to buy several units in lodz"
(2) "good idea, go to company such and such and they will provide you with excellent service"
(3) "oh yeah, i bought in lodz and i have doubled my money!"

where can you see the debate here. nothing is debated! i see only sweet coordination...!!!
coordinated in subscribing to the forum, coordinated in the topics you choose to participate and coordinated in your target.

listen, go out and make a public statement about your little scam, admit and ask for forgiveness... its the best you can do, it moves people and it always works :)

Real Estate / Whats available in Lodz, looking to buy several units [14]

... reading the old posts, i see the same pattern: Dmmm is buying, Michael C is selling, Kneehawk is supporting...

you got at the begining, i thought its for real. now i see it is just a bait. you all registered close dates, interested only in property, live in london etc etc. so many coincedences, eh?

congradulations for your sinister way of doing business! you want to have people flog to your office, people who read about an "opportunity" on the internet, and then when in your territory push sale methods will start.... nice, nice. you got in agreement with the developer in lodz, you set commission (let me guess, orco developer? they are the ones that they are sitting on few thousands of unsold stock-if its not them, contact them, free tip, they will pay good commission) and you went to internetland for fishing...

i mean, i do not blame you afterall, if you want to make a quick buck and you cannot afford marketing, you use any method you can think of...

UK, Ireland / Same banks in Lodz as in UK? [12]

avoid ING. best service i found from Raifeissen

News / Poland biggest problem [125]

a very remarkable post from bartek 212...

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

ok, i see what is on here.... either you are completely a novice with the confidence and attitude of donald trump or you are pulling us a leg here...

the scenario you are describing is a sales case for agents. that is exactly, i mean exactly what they say to people, i mean this is the rosy scenario coming to life!!! are you real? its detached from reality in the city of lodz. the rent you say you can get is imaginary. i am sorry to be harsh, but generally the way you do your math is naive.

anyway, lets keep in touch. i may be buying your appartment at 4300 plz definitely in less than 5 years when your costs will be much higher any income you may get and you will be in hurry to get rid off.

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

well, well, well...

the director of rednet in an interview today, announcing the definite turn of the company to the overseas property, she says that the end of significant price growth in the appartments prices has come to poland. she cannot see any prospect for price growth in appartment prices, she tells investors to look hard at polish market...

mind you, this is the largest sales agent in real estate in poland - by far. when they make such statement (which in fact is against their interests) things are really serious.

now if there is one single soul that wants to believe the likes above who tell you that you will double your money, then nobody can protect such a fool from his destiny.

you are indeed a king in the making, the king of deception...

swiss franc is the most popular way of poles getting a loan. yet they are exposed to the danger of currency risks. the central banks are advising the banks to limit loans on swiss franc, banks dont care as long as they make customers. what do you know about all that? nothing, why should you care, you are a sales agent, you are only after your commission...

you have avoided answering many of my questions. one on which i insist: if one buys to live in, then no problem with that. but if one buys a very basic appartment in lodz at the price of 6000-7000, how that investor would compete in the market with the smarter investor who bought much better quality at significantly lower price? real estate is a market - you compete with others and as in any market you cannot win if you buy worse quality at more expensive price....

apart from individual irish investors, shrewed individuals, some of whom i know personally, the big mass of irish have been acting foolishly in the overseas investments in europe. they are the one who bought in bulgaria at astronomical prices, they are the ones who buy without even visiting the actual site, they are the ones who in poor judgemnt used the capital release from their own private homes to finance dubious purchases, they are the ones take their experience in their local market and apply it everywhere... irrespective of macro/micro economics of the place they invest. that is the sad truth... and sad is how some irish sales agents are ripping off their countrymen.

am i talking to a ghost? michael c, dmmm and kneehawk, all are based in london!!!! they all support eachother!!!! they all are interested in property in a professional manner!!! they all got registered at close dates!!!

anyway, even if it is so, i am taking comfort in the fact that anglosaxons may have look in the site, read the posts above and think harder before they trust their countryman who suggests to them "investement" in polish appartments...

if in spite of that they go forward, at least they have been warned. i would have no problem in buying their property in the next 3-4 years significantly lower than the price they paid...

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

you start getting nervous and be unnice. you must abide by basic rules of politeness otherwise you should stop from the forum and definitely stop addressing my posts!

swiss franc morgage interest only!!! wow, what a fcuk up strategy!!! even if you get a 6% value increase per year the cost of money taking into account all expenses would annul any profit!

on the other hand, polish media is increasingly talking about a bubble, and serious analysts say that stabilizition, or slight fall lies in the horizon... not so much capital appreciation in the future. how much more can you go above and over 6500-7000 plz per square meter in lodz? in reality not much...

there was a chance in lodz to make money a year an a half ago when starting prices were 3500 pzl and secondary market in tenement houses from 2500 pzl. if you missed that chance the bird flew away. do you want to be the last one to buy at most expensive? the agents do have an interest in telling that prices would go up infinitely, yet nothing can be further from the truth. you would have to compete with people who bought at the right time at the right place and you stand no chance!

for example in lodz, in the uscheiblera project prices started at 3500 plz per sqm! and keep in mind that this is the top top end of the residential market. how can you compete with the people who bought there with your entry level crapy appartment at 6000-7000? you cannot! you will get the keys to your appartment at the same time with the scheibler owners and guess where prospective tenants will choose to stay....

if you want to go back to basics, and if you are "specialist" in entry/middle level, do you have the faintest idea what is the entry/middle salary in lodz, poland??? well, its about 200-300 euros per month. these are the potential tenants or buyer of your entry class half a million zloty appartment! you need to better inform yourself about real life situation there. and of course any customers you may possibly have whose life savings are endangered by foolish advice.

again an opportunity to warn potential investors: be wary of sales agents presenting a rosy picture. they take commisions from anybody involved, seller, buyer, bank. they will create a certain solution, they will suggest financing (for which they also take commission from the bank), they will spin your mind with imminent reaches, but truth it is only them whom make a safe catch - THEIR best investment is YOU and your willingness to believe and SIGN. if you want to do something, buy land, buy top end, avoid agents and play safe in a foreign country. i said it before. somebody has to protect the innocent from the hawks...

you ask repeatedly what is my experience. funny question in fact....

i thought of ignoring a patronising question like that, and surely i would not like to give my identity away but you did get me into giving you a hint: according to data from the ministry and the agency for foreign investmnets in poland (do you access to?), i rank among the top 40 single individual foreigner investors in real estate in poland. if you know the market as well as you claim, you can risk a guess about who i am...

let me quess what is your experience: ...ahhh...ahhhh...well you are a sales agent, right? or you are covered under the pretence of investor who "helps" other investors, right? trust me, i have come accross many of this type, especially in the last 24 months, most of uk origin... i feel sory for the poor souls they are "advising"... 2 hours internet search makes their "advice" redundant! no local polish person or experienced investor would ever use their services...

News / Poland biggest problem [125]


this guy knows what he is talking about . well put. Kudos!

... and then again if you asked a pole about their vices he would blame the comunist years, which takes us back to your first point, that is never accept responsibility...

News / Poland biggest problem [125]

1) mentality
2) jeaulosity
3) hit hard by capitalism
4) uncritical stance against the church

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

i am sorry but your math has flaws. the merit of any such investement lies with the yield. with pzl interest rate average at 5.5%, adding the costs of managment company without adding the costs for repairs or incidental costs, one should expect roughly speaking a yield of about 9% to meet the costs.

if as you say one purchases an appartment in the area of 6500-7000 plz per sqm, then suppose that you buy an app. of 70 sqm = 490000 roughly speaking. 9% on that amount would mean that you must get by renting it 44000 per year - again roughly speaking. which is 3600 per month. and this is assuming that you rent 12 months full, which is usually not the cases, as gaps of several months are unavoidable. if you know the lodz market, can you seriously claim that standard appartments are rented at that price. i am sorry but this is definitely not the case.... what you mention about companies renting for foreigner employs, this is the rosy scenario but it is only happening still in small scale in warsaw. in lodz it is completely circumstantial.

and do not say that one expects profit from the appartment selling at higher prices later. if you pay 6000-7000 then you need another 1000 per sqm to finish off the black finish appartment. it has already become too expensive.

one must say also that up to now it has been a sellers market. they artificially blow up prices and to certain extent as the number of companies is not that great one could imagine a cartel having been formed. in secondary market i doubt that such prices can be reached.

as i said before: caution for the buyer, avoid agents, buy land, if you want appartments wait for secondary market in 2-3 years. thousands of units will be on sale in a rush mainly from anglosaxon first time investors who bought a hot potato. they will need to offload the property at any price. secondary market prices will be lower than currently developer prices. add to that that all developments look better on visualizations. in real life may not look as great. do yourself a favour and visit recent developemnts in warsaw especially. they look much worse than the visualisations, not much different than the communistic blocs, just newer.

the only projects that are pricey but worth any penny of your money are: in lodz the uscheiblera, in warsaw the zlota44, in krakow one brewery becoming lofts, dont remember the name and in poznan similar project of a distillery, have to find it. any of this projects you can rent or sell without difficulty - they are extraordinary. its worth checking out the pricey zlota44 project, you wouldnt find buildings like that easily. continue, farming land category A for farming purposes and small hotels in proven touristic places. the rest if you did not do anything up to begining of 2006, now forget it. you missed the train. just check out how much prices went up from 2004 to 2007!!! you will buy expensive, you would have to compete with smarter investors who bought earlier than you and eventually you would have to find an escape route writing down a loss.

PS1. developers do not pay commission to agents??? dont think so!!! if you check the polish civil code, expressly it says that agents in principle can claim commission from both parties. and that is exactly what they do. all. but if you ask, small and big, none of them says so. so, typical sales blah blah again...

PS2. i do not assume anything about you. i only see that you are in defence of a professional agent and it does sound strange. let him defend himself (under the name of michael or dmmm or whatever he chooses).

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

kneehawk

i am not accusing, just put the record straight. he is not selling, he is an agent looking to find customers for developer so that he takes commission.

may-june prices fell over 5% in wroclaw. may june prices fell less than 1% in krakow. you do not agree with these facts?

the scheibler project is in fact top end. yet average price there was a year ago 4500. investors bought at that price level. now at what price level are you trying to sell to new buyers - mediocre quality? at 5500-6000 pzl, right? as for the renting, those who bought in uscheiblera would be able to offer appartments for rent at better prices cause they bought cheaper - and we are talking about 550 appartments!

i think you have it wrong with renting. poles do not rent appartments from foreigners unless there is an emergency... you say that you have spoken with number of people and seen contracts, your view yet not solid enough! i would count on that to put my money into.

you try to create an euphoria because this helps your sales. well, i am sorry but i will offer my views about the real life situation at the moment in real estate in polish cities. hope people read the posts and make their due diligence before they commit to an investment. they must go independant because the sales agents will tell anything in order to take the commission...

right! well there is no good or bad agent. they are all the same....

they will tell you will double your money, your will rent it no problem, you will you will etc etc. they promise and they say blah blah blah... they will exrpess vague statements, like that many people do these and these things, and i have seen many contracts on the desk of the lawyers secretary, and so on and so forth.

will they ever point out to potential pitfalls? will they ever sweat if you have a problem renting it? will they ever care if after 10 years the building starts decaying due to lower quality of work/material? surely not. once you sign and they get the commission, forget of the them, you are all alone.

if you want to help prospective buyers you can advice them to get a quotation about a project through an agent. but do not sign anything with them. then contact directly the developer. it is as easy as that. and then buyer stands the chance to negotiate a better price. language is not a problem, with 100 plz you can hire a sworn translator for the whole day in any meetings you conduct. you can save yourself few thousands of zloty which you will need in finishing off the appartment, as they all come in black finish.

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

sure, no prob, easy as i work for KPMG, send me your email address and i will attach them for you. its not a publicly published report yet, though i can send you the relevant pages... though, i doubt you mean to get informed.

did you check the monthly rednet reports, because you seem to mention nothing about that... hold on, let me guess, you hold in higher esteem the claims of michael c rather than the findings of rednet consulting, right? not really supporting your fake promises for extraordinary profits!

Dmmm or Michael C or in whatever nickname you appear here, pls try to understand that sales talk is not welcome here. in another post somebody said, listen i am an agent, if you want to buy in such and such area, give me a call. that is alright, its direct, its not sublime. you cannot play the smart by giving us sales talk and then try to blind us with "free" advice. your sales talk will be met with fierce criticism. get it?

by the way, is Dmmmm and Michael C the same person? you are both located in london, interested in property and subscribed to the forum within couple of days. and Dmmm is strongly supporting Michael C! many coincedences here....

@ moderator
in some forums it is not allowed for members to register under many nicknames. i would say that this is unnice if "one" member declares to be using the forum for sales and ther "other" pays tribute to the first...

as for the rest of the viewers with honest intentions to get informed, here is the link to recently published report about lodz

kpmg.pl/dbfetch/52616e646f6d4956f55eefd7c2c8c47b95a180645ee56e8d73b7b803d8108364/2007.05.15_____d___-_dlaczego_warto.pdf

going back to the original question, which was were to invest, well lodz is appearing as a good bet. however, its not like that that you go over there and you buy an appartment from a developer and you are done! far from that!!! you may be left with a hot potato in your hands.

the only project that makes a difference and its worth its money is the sold out project of uscheiblera. the usheiblera and the manufaktura are in residential and commercial area of investment respectively the most unique projects carried out in europe. as far as i know the rest of the developements are of quite bad quality and they are not worth the price - with possible exception the barzinsky park. developers are making a quicky on the ignorant irish etc...

to say that again: i do not refer to the case of an appartment to stay yourself, i refer to buying appartment as an investment.

buying land in the area around lodz is a top investment choice, yet with many difficulties in carrying out the deal...

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

the rednet report on residential property in poland

Dmmmm or whatever...

apart from rednet reports, one can read reports from KPMG and PWC, etc. They all point out to the fact that the crazy ride is OVER! from now on there will be selectivity, equilibrium, adaptation, etc. I hope a prospective buyer checks these reports (which also though can be biased) and put less faith in a sellers comment (in that case michael) that in so many words solicits the ignorant novice.

it comes as no surprise that you wanted to check the validity of my comment and not michaels sales talk validity. you stand to loose more from MY advice to get better informed and stay away from blood thirsty sales agents. i understand your point of view...

today is also on the news that DOM developer (one of the biggest in warsaw) has another bunch of thousands apartments in the pipeline for the capital. where all leads to: stay away and wait. wait till those who buy for investment purposes and pay off with interest only morgages do not get a tenant. the situation will get dramatic in the next 3-4 years. there will be many opportunities to buy for those with cash. now you stand at the top of the cycle. it will become a buyers market soon.

if you have to invest now, go for land. the best you could do - but do not expect any agent to tell you that, they stand to earn nothing from that...

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

sure, no problem with that, he knows what he says about tax and legal issues. but then these are commonalities which one can find in official websites... you need the links?

yet, all the rest is unfounded bull...t sales-talk! the guy tries to make a living by fishing customers in this forum. he is a sales agent - he is trying to push on you an appartment. and in order to succeed in that he will promise you anything. of course, he will not mention troubling things, like for instance that lately prices in krakow are falling slowly... or he cannot really tell you much about renting situation in secondary polish cities... cause there is no any!

not to mention misrepresantion issues. michael is saying in a previous post that his company "...is selling many properties..." Well, from a legal point of view he is not selling anything. the developer is the owner and the developer is selling. michaels company is an agent, which means he brings together the parties, the developer on one side acting as seller and you on the other side acting as buyer so that you come to an agreement and solely you two conclude a sales contract. so to be clear again, michaels company is not selling (as he claims), it is simply acting as an agent on commission.

to put the record straight: nothing against michael who in any other respect may be an excellent person. yet when i see a post saying in so many words: do you know you can double your money by buying appartments in poland? you did not? well, contact us, we are selling these appartments! To such post i feel obliged to answer in a comensurate manner, that is in as blunt words as the sales post is phrased into...

Real Estate / Whats available in Lodz, looking to buy several units [14]

i repeat: the novice investor should be very careful with the statements sales people make. intruding into the forum and giving us sales talk, it is as unpleasant it is to have sales rep knocking your door with this must-buy-miracle vacuum cleaner..!!!

read reports from the market and see past performance. the eldorado days are gone. the prices are completely unrelated to the average salaries but also the ability of average polish to take a loan.

buy now a flat (black finish) in any city and you are f...ed! foreigners would face problem because of rising morgage rates and in most cases non existent renting market. if you think that a polish person would rent an appartment in any polish city from an irish, you know nothing about poland and its people!

be aware of rosy posts, they only want your money and they do not give a damn what you do after that.

there is only one good investment for the novice: LAND. if you make a good choice, you will enjoy reasonably-up-to-spectacularly good profits.

but you are not going to hear sales rep talking about that because there is no money to be made for them. they take commissions from the developers who build 1000s units and wish to have them sold before even construction starts.

Real Estate / A unique LOFT project in LODZ [23]

construction business in poland is very much geared by fast money and greed. this is a unique opportunity to build beautiful buildings, yet most of what you see are not so appealing fenced block of flats. and that is what "investment" in residential market is understood by polish & foreigners.

if you were a developer you wouldnt really like to mess with restoration. why should you? in order to have all the trouble related to such special project? and the authorities on your neck? if you could make the same money by erecting another ugly block of flats that people would buy with very lax aesthetic criteria, why should you bother?

Real Estate / A unique LOFT project in LODZ [23]

just to add that it is very important for people to understand that they must preserve the old buildings and respect the history of the city and the continuity. more to that, it is facsinating to add modern elements to a classic urban landscape. old red brick combined with modern glass and steel atriums and facades are spectacular.

what i mean to say is that it only takes money to create something monstruous modern, like the development landscape of dubai - but polish cities like krakow, lodz, etc they have something that money cannot buy...

Real Estate / Advice on what Polish city to invest in.... [101]

Michael C is having professional interest in his posts. beware of his misrepresentions and unfounded claims. he can tell you whatever you want to hear and he is bound by nothing.

his company is not a developer but a sales agent. so better go directly to developer and save the agent's commission. it is as easy as that and do not listen to agents who use the forum to fool people.

Real Estate / Whats available in Lodz, looking to buy several units [14]

@Dmmm

stay away from people who scream to you that YOU DOUBLE YOUR INVESTMENT IN A YEAR BASIS. be suspicious of naive advices like that - they are looking for a dumb to sell to him something.

it may have been exceptionaly for a year or two in the past, but this is not the case anymore in poland. it is now a mature market, in certain cases even overpriced. prices have stabilised and in some cases even corrected.

as in every market, there are opportunities to make money but not like that whatever you buy it will double in a year. pleaseeee!

Real Estate / property in Lodz - anyone any experience [102]

i started a topic exactly on Scheibler lofts. i also think that it is an extraordinary project. i guess that from the point of view of those interested in revitalisation and architecture nothing of that scale in a form single project has seen the light of the day. it is in my view a monumental project. in that sense lodz being the host is unique but i have the feeling that the word has not been spread out.

you are discussing more in terms of investment, and i do guess its a very good one. yet i cannot see how you can relate these lofts with any single newly built block of flats. there is a numerous clausus in these lofts, no more can be built. yet block of flats are infinite. as for prices in Scheiblers lofts? whatever the owner asks for, i guess!

one thing that must be highlighted is the experience of living in such a monument. i have the feeling from their website that the developer has used this as a selling argument - yet one cannot put it down to just this, it is much more. every living space has a dynamic - i cannot even imagive what the dynamic of these lofts could be, what power would exert on the lives of the inhabitants.