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Posts by Bratwurst Boy  

Joined: 2 Apr 2007 / Male ♂
Warnings: 2 - OQ
Last Post: 3 May 2024
Threads: Total: 10 / In This Archive: 2
Posts: Total: 11,761 / In This Archive: 3,273
From: Berlin, Germany
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: his helmet

Displayed posts: 3275 / page 6 of 110
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Bratwurst Boy   
27 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

yes but people who have signed it wasn't Germans very often but Poles forced by circumstances,

...as there was "Poles" who afterwards said they were forced by the Germans to not get killed by the victors and suffer the same fate as Germans, why don't you face THAT one?
Bratwurst Boy   
27 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

yes but you don't understand that majority of population which lived on the territories incorporated into Germany after 1939 were granted German citizenship regardless they were Poles or Germans,

I think we now have the misundestanding...
That is just wrong!

There were no granted citizenships, there were the Volkslisten...
Hitler and Himmler had their racial visions and all those "subhumans" fantasies...they for
sure wouldn't want to get theirselves masses of them into their new Reich.

no problem, I know that some people sided with Germany during the war but there were many who was forced into German army by circumstances, and wouldn't do so given a chance.

Of course, but if his paper said "German" then off he did go...
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

How hard is it to understand ?

The point I try to beat into your thick skull (with all respect of course) is that no Pole could be lawfully conscripted into the Wehrmacht! Bureaucracy and all that...(and you know what sucker for rules we are).

If he was Pole then he should have been a member of the polish forces or if lived in Germany and he felt polish then he should have acted that way...but since he was conscripted he must have been a citizen of Germany, period.

I reluctantly have given him as an example of ethnic Germans who were Polish citizens but have chosen German citizenship and sided with Germany during the WWII, to let you know that I do know what I'm talking about.

Prime example of Volkliste I, totally correctly eligible for conscription into the Wehrmacht!
Even eligible for voluntary service in the Waffen-SS!

So what is the problem?
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Sure, thats zee German myth,

No it's a fact!

The Waffen-SS took younger people and foreigners....the Wehrmacht did not!

anyway if someone was decreed German citizen and then called to arms, it wasn't much he could do, was it?

When he was conscripted then he was german citizen! You need to decide what your relative was Iron! ;)
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

And I know the difference between forced conscription and volunteers, verstanden?

Volunteers were mostly for the Waffen-SS as those had their age limit at 17 whereas the Wehrmacht had to wait till 18....most were conscripts.

Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht are totally different parts of shoes (boots?), not only because that was a volunteer force but they took alot of foreigners into their ranks...the first european army as some say.

The Wehrmacht did not!
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

not much of a choice really.

Yeah..sure...excuse me but after the war everybody and their grandmom was a victim suddenly.
Nobody wanted to have anything to do anymore with the dirty kid Germany.
Not to mention that saying what really happened would had often meant abuse and death by the new rulers.

I can't believe how gullible some are!

Even believing that forced foreigners in the Wehrmacht against all logic and facts instead to face the hard truths....
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Why should you?

Because that's my field of history? Because it is part of my families history? Because there were many german Silesians who felt Germans but where also forced to be polish as the new state took over?

Why should you?
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Simple, conscript deserted, unit is sending telegram, and his family is busted - how hard it could be ?

I never heard of that actually! ;)

And where are all the hostage camps for Wehrmacht soldiers families?
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

thats reality and you are talking theory!

How do you think it should have worked in reality Iron?
There hadn't been Gestapo behind the german front lines needing to shot and control the soldiers. Do you really think Germany had the men free to take the millions of families "hostage"?

How effective should these soldiers have been....do you think Taliban would be very effective in the US army in Afghanistan?
Did the Poles or the Brits or anybody else force Germans to fight for them???? Of course not..it's impossible...it's illogical...

To say they were true Poles and somehow "forced" by the mean Germans was a convenient alibi AFTER the war was lost (or they became POW's). Most of them would had been happy Nazis if Germany would had won...you better don't forget that!
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

There were some Germans, no doubt but you are trying to impose your false view that most of the Poles serving in German army were of German origin or were volunteers.

There were no Poles in the Wehrmacht, period! Get that into your head!
Again, the rules were the same to any other modern army of that time...18, male, healthy and citizen of the state...

Any Germans living in what became Poland after the Treaty of Versailles (but not only in Poland. Volksdeutsche lived in many of the new founded countries after WWI) were asked if they would subscribe to the Volksliste, if not they decided to be Poles, if they subscribed under "I" they counted themselves as full blooded Germans, eligible for conscription.

That's all there is, really!

When in fact most of them were conscript who were forced to be a part of German army and more often then not their family were hostage.

That's just crap!

FYI:

Volksliste 1:
Ethnic Germans, which were active in the cause FOR Germany, in the inter-war years (1918 - 1939)

Volksliste 2:
Persons, who declared themselves for the Germanic "Volkstum"

Volksliste 3:
Persons, in occupied countries, who were certified of Germanic origin AND / OR "Eindeutschungsfähigkeit"

Volksliste 4:
Polonisierte (polished) Germans, later racial worthy (active) enemies of the III. Reich; (fighting for Germany to gain the "Wehrwürde")

One estimate was that there were well over 500k. This included those that came from Galicia, Volhynia, the Baltic areas and Polish Germans who were resettled in the fall of 1939.
The following group accounted for about 200k people, Besserabia, Northern Bukovina, in mid 1940 and Southern Bukovina and the Dobruja in the fall of 1940.

Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Not only Germans ....also those who were seen as a Germans by the German state,

Well...they had subscribed to the Volksliste I, so they saw themselves as full Germans. Nothing automatically about it...

I know that as long as Germans needed recruits they weren't too particular about way to get it!

Well...as a bureaucratic nation we just don't take foreign nationals by force into our army. As doesn't do any other nation!
Imagine the US forcing Taliban into their army...wouldn't work well, right? But the German army should have done?
Nonetheless I came about that interesting notion quite often here on PF....;)
But fact is no non-German was allowed to serve in the Wehrmacht...you had to be of 18 years old, healthy and german citizen, period!

So, people were Poles, no doubt about it but were threated by German state as Germans.

By the same token just because there now was a Poland doesn't mean that all the millions of people in the new borders were now automatically Poles or wanted to be, right?
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Germans were conscripted into the Wehrmacht (at least those who were counted at the time of the conscription as Germans - of course in the face of being a dead german POW or a living "polish deserter" I can't blame them), not non-Germans.

Ever heard of the Volksliste? There are some long threads about that already here on PF...
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Yeah...sheds a different light on the many "happy desertions of german Poles to the polish forces" after they were captured. It was either that or death!

What I said all along..
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

There is enough on the Axis forum to keep Bratwurst Boy going for months :-)

Manno...I was an Axis (forum)-veteran already before I found PF! ;)
(I even had their logo as my avatar in the beginning...not taken lightly here first...had to change it...)
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Do you have some kind of alarm system set up that links key words written on PF such as German, Nazi, Hitler etc.. directly to your brain?

Damn....now you found out my secret! *wails* I think I might have to shoot you now...
Bratwurst Boy   
26 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

Ask the French!
Many were not especially happy about the allied troops as many cities which managed to survive the Germans quite fine but got now bombed into oblivion by the american/british airforce. Interesting chapter of the war.

The Allied bombing of the French city of Caen on D-Day was "close to a war crime", according to leading historian Antony Beevor

'How many Frenchmen did you kill?' British bombing policy towards France (1940-1945)

The Allies embarked on an extensive campaign of bombing in France beginning in 1940, accelerating from March 1942 and becoming particularly intensive from the spring of 1944. This was to cause considerable material damage and loss of human life. Overall almost all 70 000 French civilians were killed by Allied bombs, more than the 43 000 Britons killed by German bombs during the Second World War[1].

Historians challenge rosy D-Day story, expose Allied atrocities, rape, looting
...
"It was profoundly traumatic for the people of Normandy," said Christophe Prime, a historian at the Peace Memorial in Caen.
"Think of the hundreds of tons of bombs destroying entire cities and wiping out families. But the suffering of civilians was for many years masked by the over-riding image - that of the French welcoming the liberators with open arms."

'Sullen' welcome

According to Prime, it was during the 60th anniversary commemoration five years ago that the taboo first began to lift.
At town meetings across Normandy, witnesses - now on their 70s - spoke of the terrible things they had seen as children...

....and that was only the Normandy. Till May 45 the allied bombed alot of cities, european cities not only german ones.
Bratwurst Boy   
25 Nov 2009
History / The Poms who stood by the Poles in WW2 [156]

royal family ware sympathizers with Hitler as they ware part German...

Erm....

Millions of american soldiers were part or full German too! Also all Hitler sympathizers as they came over to fight?
Bratwurst Boy   
25 Nov 2009
News / Poles protest US Stalin memorial plan [28]

But IMO using their criteria it should logically also include a bust of Hitler as the Germans were also profoundly affected by the D-Day landings I would have thought?

...actually a quite good argument to show the perversity of that plan!
Bratwurst Boy   
25 Nov 2009
News / Poles protest US Stalin memorial plan [28]

That they really want to honor Stalin with a memorial!
If that would be true there would be much more people protest than only the Poles...(at least I hope so!)
Bratwurst Boy   
25 Nov 2009
News / Poles protest US Stalin memorial plan [28]

The Polish community in the United States is outraged by a plan to honour Josef Stalin by placing his bust on a pedestal at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

I have a hard time believing this....
Bratwurst Boy   
19 Nov 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]

You can have a dictatorship with a free press.

Well...when we have a free press, functioning democracies with lotsa parties from every spectrum, regular votings, no gulags nor secret services against critics, traveling freely between our countries....I think I can live with that kind of a dictatorship! :):):) Go EU!!!
Bratwurst Boy   
11 Nov 2009
History / 9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down [113]

Jealousy... all those beautiful Ziess lenses and Telefunken radio valves.

:):):)

Or maybe to counter the supposed threat of SS Werwolf Resistance in Europe which in fact never amounted to anything other than a perceived threat than any real threat to the occupational forces.

No, actually there was no resistance movement. The mood was more like "better an end with horrors than an horror without end".

And on the other hand the deep urge of every true German to keep things clean and working must had made us to the best and neatest occupied countries ever...;)

Therefore there was not much punishing actions by the western allies needed which in turn kept the usual hate to a minimum and led soon to cordial, working relationships between the occupier and the occupied...alot of rebuilding had to be done, better start now!

(Of course the zones differed)
Bratwurst Boy   
11 Nov 2009
History / 9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down [113]

See...that's why it is so useles to discuss these things. We have our view, you have your view....and both are correct in their context!

There are books out there who handle the topic about the occupied Germany much better than I could...take a look if you are really interested!

I for one just always wondered why the western allies immediately forbade every German to keep cameras or radios in the first time...
Bratwurst Boy   
11 Nov 2009
History / 9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down [113]

Slave labor of Germans snatched from the streets and frisked away (especially in the french and soviet zone). POW's getting stripped of their status the moment Germany subscribed the defeat contrary to the Genfer conventions (doesn't needed anymore to be treated as enemy combatants, lots of soldiers died because of that.)

Letting the Soviets handling the eastern zone "soviet style" without any try to help (quite the contrary supporting them in delivering POW's and russian opposition full knowing that would mean their death, exporting the coal from the Ruhr territory to the neighbouring countries without letting the Germans have some during the first brutal winters after the war (but they were forced to mine it of course).

Letting around 2 million people die during the forced ethnic cleansing of around 12 million Germans after the "rearrangement" of borders...the usual rapes and violations of the civilians...that kind of stuff.
Bratwurst Boy   
11 Nov 2009
History / 9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down [113]

But you obviously have a specific crime(s) in mind?

No, I don't have!
The russians are a special case as they never even tried to be of the "western civilisation" heritage.

I also think it doesn't come something good out of all these ***** fights about who did what when, how, how often and especially, who was worse! (Especially between people now who weren't even a glint in the eyes of their parents as all that happened)

As long as the Germans are now allowed to talk about their own victims, to commemorate and to mourn them without somebody foreign popping a vein I'm all for building a better, peaceful future.

My only question was why the different naming of german crimes and allied crimes during occupation, that's all, really!
Bratwurst Boy   
11 Nov 2009
History / 9th November 1989: And the wall came tumbling down [113]

Are you being so naive or do you just play it? Do you really believe there had been never crimes against the german civilians by the occupying troops???

It was not if they happened but how they were called! Because all german crimes during occupations were called war crimes by the allies.

I'm repeating this now for the third time...