Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

The key to remembering is repetition. I would recommend that you get a vocabulary training program with spaced repetition, e.g. Anki or Mnemosyne, and add the words, phrases and expressions etc that you encounter there. Such a program will help you to remember everything and keep track of when words etc need to be repeated. If you use such a program regularly you will make sure you never forget much.

Also you must realise that Polish is an extremely difficult language. A few months of lessons is nothing. You could live in Poland for years and still not be able to order a pizza on the phone unless you really study actively. Polish is not the kind of language you simply pick up by just listening to it (unless you're a kid perhaps). It's simply too alien (for non-Slavs).

I've lived in Poland for over 15 months and spent perhaps 3 hours per day on average learning Polish (actively), and although I can read quite well, I'm usually at loss when people are speaking. Polish takes that much longer to learn than other easier languages like English, Swedish or German. I wouldn't be surprised if it would take 12 months to reach the same degree of conversational skills in Polish as it would take 1 month to get in for example English. Honestly, Polish is at least 30 times harder than English (no exaggeration).

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

The thing with English is that it's spoken with a zillion different accents and pronunciations, and people make themselves understood anyway, because people are used to it.

Polish on the other hand... Poles are not really used to hearing foreigners speak Polish, and they easily get confused if you make some minor error. For example, when I was a beginner, I didn't know that trz and cz were pronounced differently, so when I asked for my room key at some hotel and said "proszę sto trzy" but "trzy" pronounced "czy" the receptionist just looked at me in a funny way.

Granted that Polish ortography is infinitely more in sync with the pronunciation than English (the one thing that is actually easier in Polish than English), but in return it's much harder to pronounce in practice since it requires more tongue acrobatics. I don't have much problems pronouncing any single word in Polish when I focus, but when I have to say something like "chcielibyśmy coś zrobić", that's when it gets tricky. When I talk I normally have to focus intensely on the grammar which means my pronunciation is suffering badly as opposed to when I read some text. As for English it's enough to learn just once that a certain word is spelt in a certain way, and then you never have to worry about it again.

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

SzwedwPolsce

If you by "mastering English pronunciation" mean to be able to pronounce most words, for sure it will take more time. To get started with English conversations is much easier, though.

Take for example the verb "to go" in English. You need dozens of different words with hundreds of different conjugations between them to be able to express even the most basic things. In English it's enough to know the pronouns and "go/went/gone", and you can express things that will take many months to learn properly in Polish.

Correct grammar is so much more important in Polish than in English. Especially since the pronouns are omitted. Just learning to attach semantic significance to all these different verb conjugations and case declensions... We're talking years...

Take the verb "to cut" in English used along with various very logical prepositions. In Polish you have scores of different versions, prefixed, imperfective and perfective. ciąć, pociąc, ścinać, ściąć, obcinać, obciąć... and their conjugations that don't even remotely resemble the infinitive versions, like tnę, obetniesz... In English it's as easy as "cut/cut/cut". I cut the rope, I will cut off the string, I'm cutting through the... I've spent over a thousand hours studying Polish, and I still would have to think quite hard, or perhaps even look up some conjugation in some table even to express something as simple as "I will cut off the rope." Polish conjugations and declensions really constitute an enormous obstacle to foreign learners of Polish.

Language / jedni? masculine plural version of jeden [10]

I mean "jedni" as in a cardinal number (liczebnik główny).

Oh, I realise now "jedni" can also mean "some" as in "some of us like..."

"Come in ones and in twos"

That would sound very weird to me if it's about people. Is it really possible to say like that? And I thought I knew English. ;)

Language / jedni? masculine plural version of jeden [10]

Yes, but it still refers to the number "one". I'm not talking about ordinal numbers (liczebniki porządkowe).

As for Jonni's example, "ones" would be a noun. I was wondering if anyone could make up a sentence where "jedni" would be used as an actual cardinal number (masculine plural) and not as a pronoun or anything else.

"Jedne drzwi" is straightforward enough, but for masculine plural? Jedni...?

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]


Truer words were never spoken.


Probably more like 5000.

The problem with the high degree of inflection in Polish is three-fold. First of all you need to learn to understand all words no matter how they're inflected. Moreover you need to understand the grammatical implications of all the inflections, and finally you have to learn to use all the inflections appropriately yourself.


Even "cieszę się, że się cieszysz"? ;) It's not the vowels that make Polish hard to discern (but possibly the lack thereof), it's the consonant clusters (especially when one word ends in something like ć/ś/sz and the next word starts in something similar). Also the stresses are often confusing with nouns sometimes being unstressed (e.g. Każdego dnia).


I wouldn't be so sure. ;) I'm sure learning to understand spoken English compared to Polish would be infinitely easier for just about any non-Slavic speaker since words aren't declined, there are no stem changes to speak of and no complicated consonant clusters. The vowels are straightforward enough too. Of course there are different dialects, accents etc that may complicate things, but that's another matter.

Language / Dostał buta - genitive / accusative [25]

"dostał but" hardly gives a single hit in Google whereas "dostał buta" results in rather many hits. *Sigh* Isn't Polish hard enough already without random discrepancies like these? ;)

Perhaps one day I will understand why you say "Lubię tego batona" and not "ten baton"... Somehow I doubt it. ;)

Language / Dostał buta - genitive / accusative [25]


Strange, but I never reflected over why it's "chleba" in the Lord's prayer before. Is this "discrepancy" some historical relic, or would there perhaps even be a difference in meaning between "chleba" and "chleb" here?

Life / What Do Poles think of Finns? [50]

There's been two major school massacres in Finland within the last few years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting

The perpetrators were disillusioned kids with easy access to firearms. In Sweden such people wouldn't have a clue where to get a gun.

Firearms don't kill people. Sociopaths with access to firearms do.

Language / Dostał buta - genitive / accusative [25]

This thing with chleba kind of makes sense to me. In Swedish it doesn't sound all that bad to say "att äta av bröd", literally "to eat of bread". If "batona" in "jem batona" would be genitive it would make some sense to me, but seeing as it's accusative... I don't know... I just have to accept it I guess.

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

If somebody expects to learn Polish as it's spoken on the streets by reading textbooks and listening to cassette tapes/CDs, he or she will be sorely disappointed.

Food / Any Asian food stores in Wroclaw? [8]

Kuchnia Świata or Alma would probably be your best bet, or perhaps some big supermarket like Real, Tesco or Auchan.

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

Come on. No non-Slavic speaker ever got conversational in Polish through cassette tapes/CDs and books. Learning a few basic sentences is nowhere near good enough.

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

I would trade my reading and grammar knowledge for your ability to understand and speak Polish any day. Grammar can always be studied and learned, but if you can't understand what people around you say, it's all in vain (unless your aim is to read Polish newspapers/books or something...)

Language / Not sure if I will be able to speak Polish [53]

May I ask where you are from and how well you can converse in Polish? I assumed you were Polish since your nick is Michal.

Language / Ambiguous words? [całkiem and zapewne] [9]

Thanks for your attempt, but I'm afraid it doesn't really answer my question. Both these words have two different meanings according to the dictionaries, and I'm wondering when they mean one thing and when then they mean the other.

Anyone else has some idea?

Language / Ambiguous words? [całkiem and zapewne] [9]

Thanks.

Could anyone please translate these sentences into Polish (I just want to make sure I understood it right):

a) For sure I will visit you.
b) I'm pretty sure it will rain.
c) I'm totally convinced that I'm right.
d) It's quite likely that you're right.
e) It's quite probable that he was there.

Also if someone could tell me if I got these in the right order (from unsure to sure) and if my translations are correct:

1) dosyć/dość/raczej/całkiem pewien (quite certain) (if there is some difference in degree between these 4 please let me know ;) )
2) prawie/niemal pewien (almost certain)
3) zapewne (as good as certain, but some small reservation)
4) całkowicie/zupełnie/absolutnie pewien (100% certain)

Thanks

Language / Ambiguous words? [całkiem and zapewne] [9]

Hmm, actually I wrote "tomorrow" first and then deleted it (never even submitting or reviewing) just to shorten it down a bit. Are you psychic? ;)

Thanks a lot Ziemowit.

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]

Biernik = accusative. Nominative = mianownik.

The verb isn't singular because of nominative. It's quite complicated, and I probably haven't fully understood it myself, but I think you could say that if the noun that a number refers to is in the genitive you should normally use the singular form afterwards, and in the past, singular neuter (hence "piło").

Student pije/pił piwo.
Dwaj studenci piją/pili piwo.
Trzej studenci piją/pili piwo.
Czterej studenci piją/pili piwo.
Pięciu studentów pije/piło piwo.

Since the noun that "dwoje" refers to must be in the genitive (as it is a collective number) there is also singular agreement in this case.

At least this is how I've understood things.

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]

Kenji,

You could take a look at Oscar E. Swan's Polish Reference Grammar. It covers Polish numerals in great detail. You can find it here:

polish.slavic.pitt.edu

Be warned, though. Headache and discouragement is guaranteed. ;)

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]


I agree, but when it comes to the intricacies of Polish numerals, I don't know of any other source that covers them in such great detail. Sure, it's mind-boggling to read this chapter no doubt, but with some persistence and patience one will see how the pieces fit together.

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]


Polish a snap? Yeah right. ;) Russian grammar is significantly easier than Polish in almost every aspect. Definite forms for place names sounds kind of weird, but it's hardly anything that would make a language all that much more difficult. I don't really know anything about Albanian, but of all the languages I know something about, I would rate them like below in terms of grammatical complexity where 1 is as easy as possible and 10 something totally off the charts:

English: 2/10 - Can't get much easier than this. No cases (I don't even count genitive), no genders...
Swedish: 3/10 - 2 genders, no cases, verbs don't have to agree with anything
German: 5/10 - 3 genders, 4 cases, lots of exceptions, but not quite in the same league as Slavic languages
Russian: 7.5/10 - 3 genders, 6 cases, lots of inflections
Polish: 9/10 - 3 genders, 7 cases, 2 plural forms, even more different kinds and more complex inflections. Honestly I don't know how it could get much harder.

I'm sure there are harder languages than Polish, like Navajo, or maybe Basque, but all in all Polish grammar is really among the hardest out there, at least when it comes to major languages.

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]

The simplicity is the great strength of English. You can learn to say a lot with a minimum of effort. As for progressive vs simple present, I wouldn't say it's not hard at all to know which one to use. Progressive is for ongoing actions, and the simple present for habitual actions. In Polish it's usually rather easy to know what aspect to use, but I can have my doubts sometimes, for example if it's about both completion and habit.

Swedish is harder than English in that there are 4 different types of verb conjugations, unpredictable genders, and a bit trickier articles, since they are enclitic particles with a few different patterns. And a few different patterns for pluralforms of nouns. And pronunciation of course, but that's not a grammar issue.

I've noticed that it's always the native English speakers who contest that English is easy for some reason. To fully master English is no easy task indeed, but when it comes to reaching a level where you're fully communicative, English is undoubtedly one of the easiest languages. I know there are tonnes of phrasal verbs, and if you look up some words e.g. in dictionary.com you can get a list with a 100 different meanings, but in the end English is a remarkably easy language compared to most others, which is an indication that the language has evolved much farther. ;)

Language / Collective numbers - dwoje, troje, czworo [38]

I don't get it why native English speakers somehow get offended if you say English is easy. It's a compliment! ;) The ideal language is as easy as possible, yet with the flexibility and power to express anything you want. To master English at the level of a professor in English literature is of course as good as impossible for most people, but to be honest, almost no one needs that. People generally just need to get by in everyday situations. That's another of the great strengths of English: to deal with basic things you just need basic knowledge, yet the means for higher levels of communication is there for those who need/want it. In Polish you need to know a lot to be able to say even the most basic of things... I can understand that native English speakers are a bit annoyed when some foreigner with terrible grammar and a vocabulary of 200 words says he's fluent and that English is super easy, but that's not really what I was saying... I was merely saying that the grammar is easy. The English orthography is of course very irregular, and the immense vocabulary and richness of phrasals verbs sure makes it difficult language to master, but the simplicity of the grammar itself is a 100% good thing.

I'd correct your Swedish here, but I'm afraid we're straying too much off-topic as it is already. ;) If you want, send me your e-mail or msn or skype or whatever and I'd be happy to help you with Swedish any way I can. :)

Language / mój - moja [28]

I think this discussion is even worthy of its own thread, so I will start a new one. (I have some updated rules).

Language / ich/nich/ych [10]

If you're talking about the endings of adjectives, -ich/-ych marks that it's genitive, accusative masculine personal or locative plural agreement.

For example "Wesołych Świąt" (Merry Christmas). Here it's "-ych", because it's implied "Zyczę Ci/Was Wesołych Świąt", and the verb Życzyć requires the wish itself to be in the genitive case. Świąt is of course in the plural genitive as well.

Language / ich/nich/ych [10]

Ich/nich is used for genitive plural and accusative masculine personal plural. Nich can also be used for locative plural. Yes, they would all be translated to "them" in English.

Accusative:
"Ona lubi ich" -> "She likes them" (at least one person of "them" is male)
"dla nich" -> "for them" (at least one person of "them" is male)
"Ona lubi je" -> "She likes them" (them = women, things...)
"dla nie" -> "for them" (them = women, things...)

Locative:
"Myślę o nich" - "I'm thinking about them" (them = anything... men, women, things...)

Genitive:
"Dla nich rodziców" - "For their parents" (their = male... nich, not ich, because "dla" = preposition.