News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

Osiol and others, obviously considerable intermarriage between Hungarians and their neighbors took place over the centuries, hence the very presence of such voaculary in everyday Hungarian (not to mention that influences of Romanian, actually Dracian and Wallachian).

Nonetheless, the Hungarians are both ethnically as well as linguistically more Western than Eastern in their entire world view! Witness the strong presence of Austro-Hungarianism from the Old Empire. To this day, German as a second language is far stronger in Hungary than in most of Eastern and Central Europe, perhaps with the exception of the 'Slavic' Czech Republic, e.g. the famous 'Prague German' still heard until now amongst elderly people and also the language of Kafka.

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

The 'point' is that calling Hungarians Slavs is rather much like calling Turks Arabs since they live in the same general neck of the woods.

Magyars are decendants of Huns (from HUNgarian, get it??-:) who moved across the North Urals into Central Europe and established settlements in what is today called 'Hungary' (until 1918 though, much of what is today Romania, but let's please not drag the failed Trianon Treaty into it!! This is, after all not a Hungarian Forum). The Huns were Asians, not Slavs, much as the Swedes, strictly speaking aren't Slavs either, they're Germanic, yet are perhaps distantly related to the proto-Slavic Rurik.

Shelley's point is not such a small one, I'm afraid.

News / Polish-Hungarian friendship - reality till today or just a phantasmagoria [144]

'Bucharest is a really lovely city.' I agree, too bad it's not in Hungary--:)
Guess you must have meant to type 'Budapest' (he-he)

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

...... hold your nose when you say that. L.C.--:)-:)

Or how about it's converse. Letting your German homestay host (or guest - no pun here intended) practice their English by remarking how you 'love taking long walks in the MIST.....' and watching the look on his/her face.....

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

Which is why I didn't even go near Russian speakers or even listen to Russian while I was studying Polish for fear of language interference.

When I was learning Dutch eons ago, someone remarked that they knew I wasn;t really native Dutch because I was too 'beleefd'! Translating instantaneously for a moment I almost put my foot in my mouth, but caught myself just in time: 'beleefd' in Dutch means 'polite' (grzechny), it sounded though to my ears like German 'belebt', meaning 'busy' or 'active'. The German word for 'polite' is of course 'hoeflich', having nothing to do with either word.

Am still chuckling over that one.

Language / IN ANGLODOM -- MISS KOWALSKA OR KOWALSKI? [5]

I've also known Polish women with typically Polish surnames, yet with '-ski' not '-ska' e.g. a colleague of mine Wanda £apicki who swore up and down when I re-wrote her name on our work form '£apicka' that her unmarried birth name is '£apicki' with an 'i' and was most adamant about that!

As she is not someone to tease foreigners speaking Polish such as myself and is a university graduated translator and professor, I take her word for it--:)

Language / HOW DID BAKTERIA BECOME FEMININE? [23]

Krzysztof's point is well taken, I think! Though not by any means yet, if ever, even a near perfect Polish speaker, German is practically my first language, and the German 'Bakterie', much as their word 'Materie' (physical rather than, say, academic/intellectual) 'material', also purely Latin-based of course, has no feminine 'a'-ending either in German, as with many foreign imports. Their gender however IS always feminine-:)

Polish has numerous masculine words with feminine-looking 'a-endings' which frequently fooled me when I started learning the language, such as 'mężczyzna', 'kolega', etc....

Language / HOW DID BAKTERIA BECOME FEMININE? [23]

I too find the original poster's query definitely grounds for investigation, considering that all languages with gender, including Polish, reveal numerous inconsistencies, often baffling and/or tough to explain for native speakers.

Sometimes too, nouns will even change their gender over time (and I don't even mean homonyms with the identical spelling and pronunciation, but different meaning) due to any number of reasons.

Only wish I could think of some examples--:)

Language / DIALECTS IN POLAND? [28]

Thanks, Darius!- -:)

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

Me too-:) I've heard better things about Pimsleur than Berlitz, for instance. To be honest though, I don't trust either.

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

.....yes, it is, actually. Why? English learners in other countries typically take English language instruction for granted, particularly in say, Scandinavia and/the Netherlands. Foreigners, especially Americans and even Brits learning, f.ex. Polish, Swedish, German, what have you, are brought up to believe they 'don't really ever need to know a language other than Englih fluently!'. As a result, we oddities among them who DO see the need are the exception, not the rule. Consequently, we'll usually make a more concerted effort at learning a foreign language at the highest level possible. Again, we take it more seriously, plus, it's often an elective class in highschool, so it becomes more of a pleasure than an obligation.

Can an EU member say, 'Gee, I hate English. I'll opt out!'?? No chance!

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

I take Welshguy's point! Only when you truly know a language, inside out, backwards and forwards, should vulgar slang, or in fact, slang of any sort, be employed. Incidentally, I really never realized that I KNEW Polish, not merely could mouth a few phrases in it, when I swore angrily at a bus driver who splattered me with mud while I was walking. It just came out of me: DUPA!!!!, I yelled. Later on though, I found out that this was tame by comparison with actual gutter curses. Still, I felt a lot better being able to get something unpleasant off my chest in a foreign language.

Only when you can get angry in a language, can you be said to really speak it--:)

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

"Them damn snail eating heathens;-)....."

Tutt, tutt Shel! Musn't lose one's temper. (...even though I'm inclined to agree, he-he!!)

"But seriously we should thank the Normans; they brought cutlery to Britain :).."

Yeah, and a fat lot of good it did you! Now everyone had but another weapon to hurl at a potential adversary, after it had been used to spear food, that is--:)

And "seriously", while we're on the subject, had Will the Conquering Hero never set foot on Saxonland, our spelling wouldn't have become as f_ _ _ _d up as it is, and has been for some time. Hey, there's a good 'ol Saxonism -:). Sorry, I meant 'sullied'. Not as common sounding, plus it's Latin derived.

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

I trust you're being ironic. There are though still some lone hold out lunatic fringe supporters of a sort of beefed up 'Lebensraum' program. A German politician, originally from the former Sudeten area, now Czech Republic thank you very much, actually wanted to pass a bill in the Bundesrat or German Senate some years back, challenging the established postwar Polish-German border!!

And he was for real too--:)

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

Apropos the 'Chunnel of Love', would the French ever be insane enough to demand land back which the Normans conquered back in 1066???

Food for thought-:)-:)

Language / DIALECTS IN POLAND? [28]

Am still searching for a good on-line comparative vocabulary list Góral-Standard Polish, side by side-:)

Any help would be appreciated!

Language / EATING OUT & SOCIO-LINGUSITICS in POLAND [5]

Thanks, though I was already gettin' it back in Berlin, didn't need the extra noogy.-:)

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

The Teutons may never have 'dominated' Poznań, however, practically every major (and even some minor) Polish cities or towns still bear historical German place names given them by their supposed 'conquerors', e.g. "Poznań" = Posen etc.....

By conquerors, I mean of course trading partners, who nonethless were the dominant players at the time, roughly around the Vasa period during the sovereignty of the Hanseatic League.

Language / EATING OUT & SOCIO-LINGUSITICS in POLAND [5]

What about 'Eating Out'??-:)

The first time I visited Poland, around 1994 or so, I discovered in the medium-sized city I was staying in, a dearth of what in corresponding US cities would be regular middle-class restaurants/coffee shop-style diners, where one normally goes for breakfast or lunch.

If Szczecin was typical, there were ZERO such places, except perhaps in the local tourist hotel (a Radisson, as I recall), to 'grab a bite' to eat in the casual manner in which we do so here. I was left with either nothing, it seemed, or huge Communist Era-style dining halls ('restauracje'), almost cavernous looking, where service with a smile was a foreign concept and where so few diners went, that I found myself often quite alone beside menus which appeared to be gathering dust!!! Finally, if lucky, a heavyset, middle-aged intimidating-looking drink soddened waitress as if from an old Cold War movie, arrived and looked startled to see a soul there at all. After reluctantly taking my order, I waited in vain for the food (some lonely cold cuts on a large China platter). The bill though was a jest, the equivalent of two bucks for a veritable feast. I then left, leaving only a small tip for which I received not even an ackowledgment or (horrors) gratitude.

Just curious if my experience was usual, apropos the subject of the sociolinguistics of eating out.

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

"If anybody pushed anybody, that was Germans pushing Slavs.:)"

Darius's absolutely correct, at least if you go by the historical sources, and not Slavic ones either, but German texts too which tell of the need, practically the 'Manifest Destiny' of the Germanic peoples, to conquer the Slavic, i.e. non-German, but soon to become German, lands. A good analogy might be the US white settlers during the early years of the American Republic, believing the fate to conquer was theirs over the territory of the Native Americans and pushing back the as yet non-existant frontiers until all Indian Territory belonged to the United States.

Whilst certain stories of German barbarism have been know to be exaggerated, e.g. the supposedly documented bayonetting of Belgian babies during WW I, Eisenstein's "Alexander Nevsky" (1938) does document accurately the atrocities of the Germanic Knights in Livonia during their conquests to claim Russian land, consigning the infants of local landowners to the flames, amid setting fire to the surrouding inhabited areas.

Language / What is the most annoying thing about NATIVE Polish speakers? [12]

D'you mean normally, or just when inebriated? I frankly didn't find the speed of their talking to be a problem. Indeed however, the more the żubrówka, the more slurred the speech-:)

Polonia / Polish people in Belgium [10]

True, but Dutch texts do refer to 'Vlaams' as the mother tongue of all Dutch-speaking Belgian nationals, with the exception of the Walloon minority near the French border.

History / Drang nach Osten. [79]

After WW II, Poland was in no position to demand former territories, "taken", purloined, what have you, by the Nazis, as it to ad suffered tremendous losses. The German Empire of Karl The Great, extended far into what is today the Baltic States, small wonder. The "Drang nach Osten" goes back to the time of the German Crusaders, during the Middle Ages.

Today, seventeen years or so following German reunification, Poland is still demanding from a reuinted Germany that certain former occupied areas be "returned" to Poland, furthermore, that German school books kindly NOT refer to Gdańsk, Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Szczecin etc. as Danzig, Bromberg, Allenstein and Stettin-:)

Just my two euros worth on this most controversial of threads.

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

While I'd more than agree that dictations are an excellent form of ear training, writing, i.e. spelling and pronouciation in a language such as Polish, I wouldn't make the mistake in thinking that Polish is somehow a 'phonetic' language, meaning that it's pronounced as written. For instance, a foreign learner might easily write 'ród' as 'rut', based on certain spoken pronounciations. And then there are those consonant clusters. UGGH! How is the poor beginner supposed to know from listening, even in clear diction, that e.g. 'potrzebujesz' isn't written 'poczebujesz' etc.

Not always that transparent if the learner hasn't SEEN the word first.

Polonia / Polish people in Belgium [10]

Dutch and Polish? Not Flemish? Essentially, they're the same language, but there are substantial differences in vocab. pronounciation, even grammar. A good comparison might be British vs. American. In Dutch, f. ex. 'schoon' means 'clean', in Belgium/Flemish, it means 'pretty'-:) etc..

Language / Plural endings [20]

Well then, I learned something (...for a change!!!)

Cheers, mate

Language / What is the most annoying thing about NATIVE Polish speakers? [12]

Hmm, Bondi. I found just the opposite. When I was last in Poland, I naturally spoke nothing but Polish and found among those my own age, then round about thirty-five or so, a tremendous arrogance (cleverly masquerading as "helpfulness") by insisting on answering every bloody query of mine with a some mispronounced English slang phrase, peppered with the usual 'f****' word in order to sound impressive or like the in-crowd! Of course, I persevered calmly, pretending to be a German tourist (a convincing bit of acting ony my part, I must say) who didn't understand their babblings. After a while of this dog-and-pony charade, I then launched into a crude imitation of a German speaking English, faulty grammar and the like, if only to convince them in a sociable/humorous way that I really couldn't make out their broken English, with the tag line 'Kenn ai schpiek Inglisch?? Jess, nawt so gut, laik ju, ai lairrrn it in skul, ja?....'

They actually fell for it and I got my wish: extended Polish conversation with native Polish speakers and no concessions to the fact that I was a foreigner. We went in fact to a local pub, hoisted a few frosties and then took a lovely stroll.-:)

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

Just accomodating to the European/Continental dating method, that's all-:)

Language / My Learning Polish Woes... [64]

I'm now 48 (to be 49 on 11/1, i.e. 1.11--:)), and may still be said to be "getting started" with various aspects of Polish (no pun intended).

Frankly, don't know if I'd be any shining light in German either, if I hadn't practically grown up with all its myriad vagueries.

Language / Plural endings [20]

Slam (....goes the receiver!!!).......