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Posts by pawian  

Joined: 30 May 2008 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - O
Last Post: 11 Jul 2024
Threads: Total: 222 / In This Archive: 6
Posts: Total: 24264 / In This Archive: 632
From: Poe land
Speaks Polish?: Yes, but I prefer English
Interests: Everything funny

Displayed posts: 638 / page 7 of 22
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21 May 2009
History / Germans Exiles & Museum in Berlin in the eyes of Poles and UE nationals. [106]

I wonder what is real opinion on the subject of Poles and others nationalities too, as we are one big happy family in the EU.

Let Germans have their museum. I have nothing against. Hundred thousands of innocent people died and other lost homes. Of course, a proper historical and factual context should be provided, especially the reasons of expulsions: crimes that Nazi Germans committed in Poland and all Eastern Europe during the war. Only then will the museum be a fair enterprise.
21 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

I condemned any wrongdoings during 1920-1939 on the part of polish government and I wont repeat myself,

You did? Hmm, where?

as you're still clinging to the idea that massacres in Wolyn wasn't fault of the Ukrainians

Are all Ukrainians to blame? The highest number of UPA was about 30.000 soldiers.

I know that similar view are held in what is now called wester Ukraine, in the center or east Ukrainians have different opinions at the issue.

You see, you have noticed it by yourself.

The millions expelled and killed during the forced marches! (12 millions of them being Germans)
Don't tell me you never heard of the being build center against expellations and the whole bruhaha with Poland?

You mix details. The number 12 million doesn`t refer to Germans from Poland only, but from all Eastern territories. Next, from 12 million we must extract a few millions of Germans who fled their areas during the war, on German military authorities` orders, to avoid contact with the Red Army. It was then when they marched in harsh winter conditions and hundred thousands died on the road, in bombed Drezno or on sunk ships. You don`t want to blame Poles for that?

The real expulsion took place after the war, comprised about 3 million Germans from the Polish territory and they were transported by trains under Polish authorities` control.

So there is self criticism in Poland???

Yes. Can`t you see it in this thread?

Besides, Poles were already self-critical when Nazi criminals were still prosecuted in the world.

Do you know that in 1966 Polish bishops issued an appeal to Germans ones: We forgive and beg for forgiveness???

It was one of the first attempts at reconciliation after the tragedies of the Second World War, in which Germany invaded Poland; Poland and Germany lost millions of people, while millions more, both Poles and Germans, had to flee from their homes or were forcibly resettled.

I concur there is nothing better like good ethnic cleansing.

Nice view. Thank you.

I have nothing agains Ukraine being independent country. I just want to notice that they are not Polish protectorate ... they governthemsleves ... but I would be very carful with them.

Who talks about protectorate? Lending a hand here and there and close partnership isn`t protectorate.
19 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

As for pawian he is
a dreamer not to be reckon with,

Who knows? Maybe I am a dreamer....

So far politicians in Poland are self serving bastards but any government being "really" polish will address those issues.

Now we are both dreamers..... :):):) And God save us from a really Polish government...:):):):):)

I am form Poland. Ile razy mam ci to powtarzać chłopcze.

Where did you learn such good Polish? :):):):)

I've heard only about one. IPN released one controversial publication about Wałęsa (by Gontarczyk). Does that mean the number of UPA victims is not correct? As for Zyzak's book - it was not published or sponsored by IPN.

OK, only one. So let`s assume IPN is correct.

Look, there should be no doubt that genocidal policy was pursued and implemented by the OUN/UPA. It's not about some random killings or few instances but about consistent, well organized actions of exterminating Polish civilians.

Hmm, I think it doesn`t matter to victims if they were killed by random butchers or organised ones. Ukrainians killed Poles and vice versa.

It's said that some A.K soldiers from Wohlynia were destroying Ukrainian villages in retaliation. The estimated number of killed vary from 2 000 to 20 000.

Hmm, 100.000 killed Poles is genocide, 20.000 dead Ukrainians are random killings.

Killings are killings. If AK had been stronger and better armed, there would have been more dead Ukrainians.

I also find it interesting how you describe Polish actions: It is said, some....

I haven't heard about any investigation concerning it. But these killings don't define A.K. Armia Krajowa never pursued genocidal policy.

Some detachments of Polish armed underground did.

You're talking about ordinary people and their reactions. I'm talking about responsibility of authorities to ensure that genociders and their deeds are officially condemned.

OK, Ukrainian authorities should condemn brutal massacres of Poles in Ukraine. I am for. At the same time, Poles should condemn the policy of brutal polonization carried out in Ukraine.

Do you think you will be able to swallow it? Or do you insist Poles were flawless???

New monuments of UPA leaders, war criminals responsible for mass-murders of Poles: Stefan Bandera's, Roman Szuchewicz's, „Wohlyn butcher's” - Dmytro Klaczkiwśkij's are popping up in western Ukraine.

Hmm, now you are using the method of collective responsibility. Why do you list Bandera as a mass murderer if he was arrested by Germans in 1941 and during Wolhyn massacres he was kept in the concentration camp??

Roman Szuchewicz was awarded the highest honour - the title „hero of Ukraine”. This is what Szuchewicz wrote in one of his orders:
„Śmierć jednego Lacha to metr wolnej Ukrainy, albo będzie Ukraina albo lechicka krew po kolana, Polaków w pień wyciąć.
W związku z sukcesami wojsk sowieckich konieczne jest przyspieszenie likwidacji Polaków, muszą zostać całkowicie zgładzeni, ich wioski spalone (...) ludność polską należy zniszczyć.”

Excuse me but this in only a more brutal version of what Polish leaders thought and said about Ukrainians before the war. They intended to perform the rapid polonization of Ukrainian majority, especially by closing their schools and organizations, destroying Orthodox churches and converting believers into Catholicism. Also by pacification of Ukrainian villages suspected of rebellion.

Simply speaking, the Ukrainian minority (majority in Western Ukraine) in Poland was to be destroyed. New Eastern Poles were supposed to be born out of them.

As I said, during peace time Poles did things which were only repeated on a much larger scale by Ukrainian nationalists during the war.

A monument of a person responsible for genocide of thousands of innocent civilians. Where is such monument in Poland?

There aren`t yet.
But Polish partisans who massacred Ukrainian villages are revered as heroes and memorial plaques are put in churches.

Judging by their national 'heroes'... I would not be surprised if anti-polish sentiment was prevalent there.

I don`t think so.

If you can justify ethic cleansing/genocide conducted by OUN/UPA, then you can do the same with Polish politics in Ukraine. Just put it in the right context.

So you see nothing wrong with Polish policy towards Ukrainians....

That's crazy. With such friends, who needs enemies?

I am not against the discussion about massacres. I want Ukrainian leaders state clearly that massacres were criminal acts.
But I also want Poles to acknowledge that for centuries they conducted a policy of colonization in Ukraine and the polonization methods used before the war were a grave mistake.
18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

I have to worry you but I am not Russian and I don't care about Ukraine.

So, where are you from, Mr Darkman? Is it such a secret? :):):)

I'd say that sooner or later Poland is going to see that all projects planed with them were one big mistake ...

It is a typical Russian trait to be a pessimist and fatalist. Come on, act Polish way - cheer up! Show more enthusiasm! :):):)

In my opinion they will never be part of EU ... and not because of Polands "for or against" in this case ...

They will in our lifetime. I am a believer.

but lets say that one day they would be part of EU ... I know whose the best friend they will be and for sure it will be not Poland.
Eurovision 2007 - Ukraine - Verka Serduchka - Danzing

Thank you for bringing up this song. I always liked it - crazily funny. Yes, Danzing and Russia Goodbye. :):):):):) But let me remind you that Poland is in European Union and NATO partnerships with Germany. :):):):) If Ukraine creates such partnership with Germany too, do you think it will sadden me? Of course not. I am not jealous... :):):):)

You can`t suppress my enthusiasm! :):):)
18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Have you ever been to Russia ?

Yes, I have. Russians were great people, but their food was horrible. Only eggs. Eggs for breakfast, eggs for lunch and for dinner too. :):):):)

what is more I am not from Russia but if I,ve been Russian and read all posts of people like you here ...

Nope. It was settled long ago that you are Russian! Stop these vain declarations! :):):)

I just prefere Russians over Ukrainians ...

It is natural. :):):):) If I were you, I would also think so. :):):):):)

what is more Russians don't have former colonial complex.

Of course, they do! Much worse than Ukrainians`! They have the Golden Orde slave complex. :):):):) It has been haunting them since 14 century. :):):)

Btw ... I don't find Japan less developed than Poland ... Japan helped Poland so many times in the past ... be careful ... with your name calling

Did you get annoyed by any chance? :):):):):)
I am sorry but you are receiving provocation for provocation. :):):)

Well, lets agree to disagree ... I'd say that we should cooperate when it is needed, ... with Russia or with Ukraine ... but without dreams about commonwealth ...

Yes, it is a nice dream. If we believe hard, it will come true one day. Poland, Russia, Ukraine - Slavic Commonwealth!
But if Russia tries to f...king dominate over anybody again, she`ll be kicked out the moment she does!!! :):):):) Bear it in mind and tell it to your bosses in the Kremlin. :):):)

Nope! We will be partners. In united Europe.

We are already partners and friends.

18 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Forghet about Ukraine ... don't make mistakes form the past ... they should deal with their problems themsleves.

Nope! We shall never leave Ukraine! In good and bad times, Poland and Ukraine must keep together!!!

Solomon, I have nothing against Russians joining our partnership. But you must behave like civilised people, not Asian barbarians! Start from yourself!!! :):):):):):)
18 May 2009
Food / is" kaszanka" a Polish speciality? [54]

Actually, there are many kinds of kaszanka produced locally and you can find spicy sorts too. I have just found one recently and put it into tortilla without chilli sauce, it is so spicy.
17 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

If Poland didn't try to colonize Ukraine all the time, but made an ally on its eastern border,... And this could have lasted for centuries if there were less arrogant and greedy people who always want to impose one's will on others.

Yes, it is a great pity that the Commonwealth of 3 Nations didn`t arise. We would be invincible. :):) The elites of the times were too shortsighted for that and in result all parties lost and a sea of blood was spilled.

Think about it, Ironside.

It is a good opinion but I am afraid it will be lost on Iron. He seems to be personally prejudiced, he mentioned his family and losing someone in Wolyn or sth.

But it doesn`t mean you should cease defending Ukraine, of course.

Yeah keep dreaming. Your view at that issue is so wide of the mark that I won't bother to repeat myself, you are so bias probably due to your communist education.

If YOUR bias comes from the schooling you received in free Poland after 1989, I think your teachers should be fired immediately. :):):):)

In what way is harmful?

Poland and Ukraine working together will be a substantial power which might positively influence this region of Europe.
With hostile relations between us, separated, we will only cause trouble for ourselves and everybody around, with third parties winning their schemes in the region.
17 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Ironside:My question if both Poles and Ukrainians were defending their territory - who was right ? both?
Still waiting for an answer.

Yes, they both had the right. The weaker lost, the stronger won. Simple.

Well, there is your interpretation and I know nothing about it.
And seriously I doubt your revelations about him

Let me answer with your own words:
don't expect me to go along with you on this path of self deny. :):):):):)

Look, according to today`s standards of IPN, Kuraś was just another butcher whose only bright side was that he fought against Germans.

******** action and reaction ?It wasn't reaction adequate to anything and I don't think that Poles would had done the some if the situation were reversed.

Let me answer with your own words:
Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?

On the said territory only 56% of the population were Ukrainian, most of the towns, industry, wealth and educated people were Polish,

Hmm, they taught me in primary school long ago that 56% make the majority. What percentage was Polish? 20%??? And you want to keep Ukrainian lands with such numbers? :):):):)

for one they could not be able to constitute proper government without cooperation from the Poles because there was not enough educated Ukrainians.

Hmm, I heard that Poles closed all Ukrainian schools and universities before the war. It is called educational cleansing. :):):)

They aspiration at the times were idiotic and dangerous to stability of any state, and considering that there were never an Ukrainian state it was impossible to do otherwise

Idiotic? How can the aspirations of 56% people be idiotic?
It was Poles who started the cleansing before the war - Ukrainian culture, organizations and religion were destined for removal, Ukrainians were to become Polish.

I hope you are constant in your very citizen like attitude.

Yes, I am. I have supported Ukrainian cause since 1991. I am realistic, unlike you. I understand what gains there are for Poland from independent Ukraine:):):):)

It just a thought but you and Nathan are coming across as one person - are you?

When you finally come to conclusion that we aren`t, I will also posikam się ze szczęscia. :):):):):)

Come on, be realistic. Nothing like that is going to happen. That is what irritated me about you previously - your fighting for a lost cause. :):):):)

Do you know that for a fact ? Can you prove it?

:):):):):):):):) You are very romantic in your fight for this lost cause of retaking any lands for Poland. So Polish...... :):):):)

Secondly, what you call colonizations ?

By colonization I mean controlling the foreign land with an ethnic group which is larger than your own and which opposes your rule and wants to abolish it. Decolonization took place after WW2 when all ethnic groups larger than colonizers rebelled against their rulers. So was the case in Ukraine.

Ah but they do! Don't believe me? Ask BB!

Look, it would be funny to form our knowledge of contemporary Germans on the case of BB (who is pulling your leg most of the time, BTW), just like it would be funny to form it about contemporary Poles on your case.

As for 800 years - thats wrong, check your informations.

Giving dates to prove any rights? Very well. So, let me again remind you that the Polish state vanished from the map of Europe for 123 years - from 1795 to 1918. And it happened through Polish grave mistakes.

Really ? What about Northern Ireland? Crazy?

What percentage of Irish population in NI supports British rule? As far as I know, they make the majority, unlike in Ukraine.

And quite that nonsense about colonies , will you?

No, why? When you look at the map of Poland from 10 century, you will see that Poland expanded eastwards at the cost of Rusin population. If in 20 century Poles were still in minority in these lands, it meant a colonization failed.

If you bend backward to accommodate everyone it may happen that someone will take advantage of you.

Very well. You go your own path, I will go mine. We`ll see where we shall meet in future. :):):)

One piece of advise - Poland is a democratic country. In next elections vote politicians who desire to change borders with Ukraine. They might represent you in the parliament and continue your fight by political or military means.

But, I am afraid you won`t find too many. They are not crazy..... :):):):):):)

I consider your demands very harmful to Poland. Even if there are more like you here and you formulate your demands formally and start political debate about it, you are going to gain nothing, but we and Poland may lose a lot. Anti-Polish sentiments might again rise in Ukraine. You are blind to such a possibility or don`t care and that was the second reason I was irritated at you in the past. But now I have calmed down. Weed smokers, as you say, happen. :):):):):):):)
16 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Any examples ?


Józef Kuraś - a Polish highlander, before the war was a non-commissioned officer. During WW2 Germans killed his father, wife and a child. First he was in AK, then in the leftist underground. Cooperated with Soviet partisans and Red Army entering the region of Podhale. He actively led a propaganda war against AK underground in the area (accused AK of cooperation with Gestapo). After the war he became a local chief of militia (communist police), then of secret police. Not trusted by his communist superiors, he deserted, taking his men into the forest to fight against communists until his death in combat in 1947. During this period his soldiers executed some Jewish people, especially on trains and buses travelling through the area. His units were also known for harassing Slovak minority.

Let`s be frank about Kuraś - I think the dark side got him. If he hadn`t been fired by his superiors, he would have worked as a chief of communist secret police for many years. With his talents, he could have even made a career in their main headquarters in Warsaw, next to Berman, Radkiewicz etc.

His monument is in Zakopane but I won`t show it. The guy isn`t worth it. :):):):)

Yes, UPA butchers were complete barbarians but can you also remember Polish grave mistakes in Ukraine?

I don`t equal them, but I consider the WW2 Wolyn massacre a direct result of Polish brutal pacification of Ukrainian national aspirations in peace time before the war. Polish action caused Ukrainian reaction. Isn`t it obvious? DO you think that Poles would behave differently if they were in Ukrainian shoes?

Well, maybe you are Pole but strange one.

No, I am a Pole who is able to look critically at his own nation`s actions. I believe Polish politics in Ukraine was incredibly stupid and blind. And it finally brought about the massacre. It just couldn`t end another way. I am so sorry...

So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???

Our land back or at last some of it.

Come on, be realistic. Nothing like that is going to happen. That is what irritated me about you previously - your fighting for a lost cause. :):):):)

My reservation are limited to some territory which should belong to Poland.
With that thing sorted out we all can have a one big happy family,

I thought the era of colonization ended long ago. :):):)

In the same way Germans may demand the return of lands in western and northern Poland which once belonged to them. For quite long- 800 hundred years??? :):):)

Look at the map of the original Polish state - 10 century

Then Poles lost territories in the West and together with Lithuanians gained in the East.

only to lose everything during partitions:

Partitions practically ended any Polish aspirations for colonies in Ukraine and elsewhere. If Poles were unable to save their own state, how could they expect to keep colonies??

Do you understand now why I consider all Polish claims to Ukrainian lands not only silly but also groundless?? :):):)

In the same way Great Britain or France lost their colonies all over the world in result of WW2. What would you think about an Brit if he/she still claimed British rights to India and its territory? Crazy? :):)):)

Yes, Poland recaptured these Ukrainian lands again in 1918, by fire and sword. The fight was fair - Ukrainians lost because they were weaker, Poles won because they were stronger. But during WW2 it was Poles who lost due to their weakness. It was impossible for them to hold the colonies any longer.

Do you expect any compensation for the loss caused by the nation`s weakness? I am afraid such cases don`t happen.....

Better look at this and be happy with what you have - your own country. It could be different.....

Maps are from here - interactive map of Poland throughout centuries - very informative:
15 May 2009
History / Kielce Prison History [5]

It seems there is one working prison and one no longer in operation. Na Piaskach is a new one, operational from 1970s.

The old one in Zamkowa Street was built in 19 century and was used during and after WW2 - the place of the martyrology of the Polish nation.,83,Muzeum_Pamieci_Narodowej.html
14 May 2009
Life / The materials used for house building in PL, most popular? [10]

In scotland houses are made of stone.

Houses made of stone are quite rare in Poland. Here a building near a stone quarry.

Many houses in the mountains have stone walls on the level of the ground floor.
14 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

The reconciliation between Poland and Ukraine is a joke.

No, it isn`t. It is working.

Ukrainian government has never issued any apology for UPA crimes and ethnic cleansing.

They need time. Step by step, little by little, Ukrainians will understand that such a formal declaration is important to Poles. Do you really need such formality?

One of UPA leaders (Roman Szuchewicz) responsible for massacres of Poles recently got a monument in the centre of Lvov. Many Stefan Bandera's monuments are in Ukraine already. There will also be 'the street of UPA' in Lvov.

Why do you see Ukrainian monuments and forget about Polish ones? Polish controvercial figures, including murderers of innocent people, also have their monuments in Poland and Poles don`t care when foreigners critisize. So, there is a draw.

Do you really believe that's enough justification for what UPA did? So these innocent people just deserved it? You seem to forget that it was also deliberate, planned ethnic cleansing.

I pity all victims and think it was incredible tragedy.
But why all bashers of Ukraine only present photos of atrocities and juggle with numbers of victims? Why do they forget there is never an action without a due cause?

Look, if in peace times of 1930s Poles organised a cultural and national cleansing (called polonisation) for Ukrainians by closing their schools, churches, organizations, sending pacification police units to Ukrainian vilages to arrest opponents and beat peasants, what do you expect that the oppressed people would do during the cruellest of all wars? Yes, UPA butchers were complete barbarians but can you also remember Polish grave mistakes in Ukraine?

According to historians, OUN-UPA murdered 120 000 - 150 000 Poles.

IPN has big problem with credibility nowadays. It has released or sponsored too many controvercial publications recently. If you live in Poland, you should know sth about it.

Nobody really wants compensations, border change or Lwów. Just the truth. If Ukrainians cannot bear it, Poland should leave this useless and false 'partnership'.

Good. Let give Ukrainians more time to think things over. When they feel strong, they will come to terms with their gloomy past, just like Poles have serious problems with acknowledging their own pogroms of Jews. Do you know that people living in Jedwabne where the biggest massacre took place refuse to admit it or express regret? They boycotted all celebrations, they feel wronged, sort of......

So, if Poles can`t accept their dark past, why do you expect it from Ukrainians???
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

He is not Polish he is Ukrainian...

Yes, I am Ukrainian at heart. :):):):)
Be sincere and say: I am Russian. :):):):) I am also Russian at heart so don`t be ashamed to admit it to me.

This program shows truth ... :)

Yes, it does. But some info you provide in your posts is untruth. :):):)

you're like a deprived child forsaken and lonely, with no nationality, gone astray, bearing no kind feelings in his heart, malicious and chauvinistic

Strange but I can`t see these characteristics in Nathan, especially chauvinistic. He just defends Ukraine`s right to exist as an independent state, that`s all, and despite Ukrainian problems, he expects to be treated as equal and has a full right to it. He doesn`t do anything what an average Pole or Russian wouldn`t do about his/her country.

Pawy, is it really that weird for Poles to own such view as Ironside or Salomon do? Too many Russians for one thread, don't you think so? I'm off... :)))

:):):):) Hmm, let me think. I must say that their views, especially those suggesting a creation of a great alliance with Russia, can be shared by some Poles. How many, I don`t know. But surely less than a minority.

The views of Ironside and Solomon are alien to me. Why? Despite the similarities in languages and culture, and the fact that personal relations between Poles and Russians are correct in most cases, with most Poles/ Russians bearing no grudge to each other on a national level, I consider an alliance with Russia harmful to Poland.

Poland has definitely chosen the Western way, there are no doubts about it after we accessed NATO and EU. In fact, Poles` choice of the Western style of development took place in the 10th century by adopting and maintaining Catholic christianity till today.

Yes, between 10th and 20th century the course of action adopted various ways, Poland had its ups and downs and couldn`t really decide what it was, but today the country is westernizing decisively and I believe it is beneficial for us, Moreover, that`s what most Poles want (70-80% support for EU).

Whereas Russia is both West and East, or, frankly, neither West nor East. The Russian two-headed Eagle looks both sides. The Russian attitude to the West is a perfect mixture of admiration for the Western achievements with suspicion and resentment to Western decadence. I don`t suppose Russians might change even over a longer period of time.

An alliance with Russia would bring too much chaos into Poland. :):):) That is why I consider all guys with such views as Solo and Iron, no matter if they are Polish or other, as destructive and detrimental to the development of Poland.

Besides, their views are very close to the program that Polish nationalist party, Narodowa Demokracja, devised many years ago - an alliance with Russia against Germany. And I have always considered nationalists to be harmful guys.....

Last but not least, they propose flushing down such countries as Ukraine and the Baltics and I disagree with it. The more European countries there are in Europe, the better. The Baltics already consider themselves Western, Ukraine is still undecided but they are moving to it.
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

I know what you asked and I refuse to answer your questions because next thing, you will say something senseless as above, I refuse to prove I'm not a camel to the blind guy who haven't seen one!

I knew you would say sth like that! :):):)

But, if you answered correctly and to the point, why should I say it`s senseless??? I am certainly able to praise an accurate reply. The problem is that your replies with kings` names were a bit too vague. Yes, they set the time, but I think you should have been more specific. :):):)

Your replies:

Zygmunt Stary

And here are complete ones:

What Polish words were once used in the past to check the national identity of disguised guys and differentiate them from real Poles? Say these words now...... :):):):):):):)

The correct answer: soczewica koło miele młyn. The times of £okietek, indeed.

How about this? What is the name of the legendary Polish guy who was given a piece of jewellery by a certain foreigner but refused to accept it, saying famous words??

Abdank (Habdank). The times of Krzywousty, indeed.

What about this: what peculiar incident caused the termination of the Jagiellonian dynasty? A hint: it was the king who behaved stupidly and his lineage suffered in result. :):):):)

A bear was let free by royal hunters on king`s order for hunting amusement, but it scared the queens` horse and she miscarried a child who could be a future ruler of Poland. The stupid king was Zygmunt Stary, indeed.

OK, my doubts about your Polishness are more or less dissipated. :):):):):):)

I'm speaking my mind if you find argument's to change it and you are willing to try, go ahead!If not I will keep my view on the subject!

OK, the matter is settled. We shall both stick to our opinions.

I cannot comply to someone who has no idea what free speech[b][/b] means)))

OK, let there be free speech. Forgive me all my strong words directed to you and simultaneously I forgive you yours. Let there be peace, with difference of opinion maintained. :):):)
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Zygmunt Stary

Hmm, I can see your history-oriented friends helped you a lot but still they couldn`t cope with Krzywousty riddle. :):):) I didn`t ask about the king, I asked about the guy who gave up a piece of jewellery.

Can you understand that I have different opinion that you, so should I call you ukainian agent ?

Look, baranie, :):):) I don`t care what opinion you have. But I care when you usurp yourself the right to speak in the name of the Polish nation and demand anything from Ukraine, if you even aren`t Polish yourself. That`s what ails me and that is why I think you are aswhole. Add to it your idiotic views on Poland and Ukraine and the relations between them, as well as your blindness what Poland`s political interests are.

Poniał, towariszcz? :):):)
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Why are you giving me some boring programme if I asked you about the link to the information about 500.000 victims???

Please, stop spreading false information because you are losing all credibility. The number 500.000 of Poles killed by nationalist Ukrainians is not true, Polish historians have already proved it. Even Norman Davies in his book "Ethnic Diversity in Twentieth Century Poland." says:

Polish Ukrainian antagonism led during and after the war to genocidal massacres on both sides, with thousands Ukrainian civilian being killed in central Poland and tens of thousands of Poles killed in Volhynia and Podolia.

Tens of thousands isn`t 500.000, is it????

So, stop lying about history, Solo. The numbers are much lower and range from 30 to 70 thousand.

I have great fun with you :)

I knew you wouldn`t be able to pass the Polish identity test. :):):):)

Again, may I ask you, what is your interest in conflicting Poles and Ukrainians? Leave us alone. Russia is a great country in big trouble, they need you there. :):):):)

The fact that Poland wasn't compensatet is strange, very strange. Poland should fight for what should belong to her.... Think twice when it comes to aliances....

No, it shouldn`t. Don`t be daft.

Poland is like little child which by mistake has been send on winter holidays on ... Syberia. Now after come back small poor Poland is in nice club, Poland has cola for free, chips, TV ... other childern from the club who stayed in home durring Polands trip on Syberia some times make jokes from Poland... that Poland is poor, that clothes are not new (but alwyas clean) that she has funny complexes but all in all club isn't bad.
In next 10 years Poland should concentrate on herself, buy nice skirt, bike, playstation ... and now Poland should ask some chidren about the toys which were stolen ... and why?

:):):):) Hey, was it an evening tale to put us to sleep more quickly???? :):):) If yes, you almost succeeded.:):):):)

It is not Russian agent advice ...

Do you think we will believe you after your earlier lies??? :):)

Stop pawian you are humiliating yourself.

Really?? I haven`t noticed it. :):):):)

And I can answer all your stupid riddles but it prove nothing!

Of course you can`t. Or can but only after heavy googling and consultation with your Russian friends who are better oriented in Polish history. :):):):)

That is why I have to turn down your pathetic offer below:

I will answer your riddles under one condition you admit being moron and stop making post's on this thread as there are of no value and prove only you serfs mentality.
Are you to the challenge pawian?

Of course I won`t give up this thread because pathetic pests who are ready to harm Polish interest must be opposed everywhere they appear. Poniał, towariszcz?? :):):)

You seems do not mind Nathan's attitude yet you slandering me for standing up to defense of Poland interest.

You are not defending anything, blockhead, you are damaging it and only you know why you are doing it.

Find yourself another thread as you are out of your liege here.

No. I will stay here and fight all anti-Polish parasites. :):):)

Oh I'm abusing you ,sure but not Nathan
You wonder why ?
Read your posts !

Do you really need to be an aswhole??? :):):):)
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Now it`s my turn.

It doesn't change the fact that according to Davies they murdered 500 000 Polish people

And I don`t mean the only one from Wiki....

I am afraid you won`t find it. The number 500.000 applies to all Polish victims in the East, most of them died at Soviet hands.

But you can always try....

Hey, what about my Polish Identity Test questions? Are you unable to answer any of them? Even with google???
Strange, strange..... :):)
13 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Few $ which could be transfered to Poland isn't the past.

Oh, my! Do you really need to be so greedy? Suck Germans, suck Ukrainians, suck everybody for money. It is disgusting.
Why don`t you demand compensation from Russia which openly admits to be the successor/heir of the Soviet Union??? If you are so sensitive to Polish suffering in the East, why do you ignore that inflicted by Soviets? Solo, if you want to remain consistent and credible, you must publicly state that you demand compensation from Russians. :):):):)

What is more, nobody will take them to NATO (aliance stability). EU - look on european coutries budgets and debt - forget about it.

Are we talking about Ukrainian access in 2010??? :):):)

Even if mission promoted by Pawian had chances - they would be our natural enemy in EU...

Enemy? For the time being you are the greatest enemy of Poland. :):):):)

Even if mission promoted by Pawian had chances - they would be our natural enemy in EU...what is more they wouldn't think about business but just to prove us something.

I can see you took up prophecy.
Hmm, have you got papers that you are a certified prophet? :):):):)
12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Why so distrustful? :):):)
It is strange you can`t google it for yourself. :):):)
I have many links but they are all in Polish. It might create a problem for you.

Ok, I will be nice. Know that we, Poles, are kind-hearted people. :):)

Here is the link to an English version.

And here in Polish for you to practice the language.

pawian: How about this? What is the name of the legendary Polish guy who was given a piece of jewellery by a certain foreigner but refused to accept it, saying famous words?

Still too difficult?
What about this: what peculiar incident caused the termination of the Jagiellonian dynasty? A hint: it was the king who behaved stupidly and his lineage suffered in result.
12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

I don't know your measures of Polishness but if it is Ukrainian a ss licking ... we are not in the same company :)

No, we aren`t. Your company is that of Russian ass lickers. :):):):)

It seems that I am not in the same company as you. It seems that my company is bigger and bigger ...

It is natural that old people who were born in once Polish Ukraine have fond memories of their home. But they are individuals who belong to the past, while we are talking about modern Polish interest.

You are spreading false info, Solo. The picture you posted doesn`t present the Polish victims of UPA. They are gypsy children killed and hanged on a tree by their mentally ill gypsy mother. The incident happened before the war and a dozen years ago it surfaced with a false attribution of UPA atrocities. But Polish historians already resolved the matter. As a non-Polish guy, you can`t know such things.

Link ?

Why so distrustful? :):):)
It is strange you can`t google it for yourself. :):):)

I have many links but they are all in Polish. It might create a problem for you.

Jesteś psychiczny.

:):):) The riddle is too difficult to google the answer??? :):):)

How about this? What is the name of the legendary Polish guy who was given a piece of jewellery by a certain foreigner but refused to accept it, saying famous words??

12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Let me ask you again. Why are you speaking on behalf of Poland and Poles and demanding anything from Ukraine if you aren`t Polish? Leave Poles and Ukrainians alone and let us develop good relations. If you want to join us, we will gladly accept you, because we have nothing against Russians. They are great people, indeed.

But to be accepted into company you must stop this childish trouble making, like below:

I prefere Russians and our in some cases tense contacts with them are caused by Polish support for Ukrainians. Lets forget about them and talk straight to Russians because they are nation with common sense.

I can see a great inconsistency of yours. You advocate Poland as a bridge between the West and the East:

Poland with other central european countries should try to be like bridge between this two parts of continent and support each other in this mission. Confronation between east and west make form Poland and other central european states ... front line.

And in the above post you propose this

Can you see the incongruency of your views?

Last but not least.

Polish vilage after Ukrainan action :

You are spreading false info, Solo. The picture you posted doesn`t present the Polish victims of UPA. They are gypsy children killed and hanged on a tree by their mentally ill gypsy mother. The incident happened before the war and a dozen years ago it surfaced with a false attribution of UPA atrocities.

But Polish historians already resolved the matter. As a non-Polish guy, you can`t know such things.

Really last one

That is why, Ironside, I consider you a harmful provocateur if you propose to demand lands or territories. And you aren`t even Polish. You haven`t answered my request to utter a few words which once were used as as a nationality test on the citizens of the Polish state, to catch out those who only pretended to be Polish.

So, what are the words? I am giving you one more chance.... :):):):)

Solo, how about cracking that riddle? :):):)
12 May 2009
News / Searching for keys in Polish-Russian relations [75]

I remember destroyed by Ukrainians grevayard of Polish soldiers who fought for Polishness of this city just after regaining of indeoendence in 1918. Graves of French or American volountires who fought on Polish side were devastated by Ukrainians as well...

Graveyard of Polish soldiers..... :):):) You don`t even know that it is commonly called the Cemetery of the Lvov Eaglets (official name the Cemetery of Defenders of Lvov) and is located in the giant £yczakowski cemetery. :):):)

And you don`t even know that the cemetery was officially opened in 2005 after a thorough renovation....

One thing is sure in contacts with Moscow Poland shouldn't think about Ukraine...

Oh, I see, you advocate Polish Russian relations, at the cost of Polish Ukrainian conflicts???
Very clever. :):)):)

Come on, forget Ukraine - it will be independent despite your attempts to subjugate it! :)
Stop silly provocations and be a nice Russian whom we would like to be friends with. :):
12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

I see you as imprisoned man in hatred and old chauvinistic ways seeking blood and pain for both nations.

Nathan, easy. The guy isn`t Polish, he is only trying to start animosities between Poles and Ukrainians. He is trying but doesn`t know that we won`t allow him to provoke us. :):):):)

He also doesn`t know what he is speaking about, he only writes what his bosses tell him. :):):):)

E.g., he seems to suggest to give up Gdańsk. No normal Pole would trade Gdańsk for Lvov. :):):):)

Gdansk was build by King Boleslaw, yet I agree with the fact that in 1918 it was German town regardless partition.

Gdańsk is a truly Polish city now with German past, while Lvov is a fully Ukrainian city with Polish past. All three nations had stormy relations in this past, but now it is time to bury the hatchet and live in Europe like normal people, instead of revoking old nationalist demons.

That is why, Ironside, I consider you a harmful provocateur if you propose to demand lands or territories. And you aren`t even Polish. You haven`t answered my request to utter a few words which once were used as as a nationality test on the citizens of the Polish state, to catch out those who only pretended to be Polish.

So, what are the words? I am giving you one more chance.... :):):):)

Why are you doing such stupid things such as these provocations?

Nathan, you keep abusing me all the time, calling names and so on, and yet you talking about my hate?!

Who is abusing who here? You got your addresses wrong.... :):):):)

Here is a handful of your lovely arguments for the discussion. Why do they make about half of all your posts??? :):):):)

I will state my view about history and present on Poland and Ukraine later as I have a live and have to finish now!

Do you really have to??? :):):):) What`s your interest in it?? :):):)

I'll do it without provocation and as concise and to the point as I can!


You have to agree that your country was behaving outrageously against all norms of democracy and national tolerance

Let`s call it a draw, then, and develop good relations.

For Ironside: read a few excerpts.

In 1924 the Ukrainian language was eliminated from use in state institutions and government agencies. In the face of economic stagnation, scant industrial development, and vast rural overpopulation, the government promoted Polish agricultural settlement, further exacerbating ethnic tensions. As Ukrainian nationalist activities quickened toward the end of the 1920s and in the '30s, the regime resorted to more repressive measures. Some organizations were banned, and in 1930 a military and police pacification campaign led to numerous arrests, widespread brutality and intimidation, and destruction of property.
12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

Where did you find this rubbish? In the UPA booklets "Why Poles are our enemy" or NKVD leaflet "kill pany"?

I guessed it from your posts. :):):):):):)

For what reason should they belong to Poland?

Because it was part of the Crown and border issue wasn't settlet between Ukraine and Poland but by the arbitrary decision of the one man, Stalin.

OK, when you die, go and meet Stalin and tell him off.
For the time being, leave the matters to be settled by Poles and Ukrainians and stop trying to revoke old conflicts between two nations.

BTW, the same Stalin gave Poland Western lands, in case you forgot.

What kind of psychobubble is that ?
I can see that you are deeply confused man pawian.

It is because I am in contact with you. :):):):):):)

You compare Germans and 120years of their rule mainly in the XIX century and 20 years of polish rule in the eastern malopolska.

Not 20 years but 600 years from 14 to 20 century.

Because we are talking about prewar borders and because contrary to some I recognise existance of the ukrainian nation and polish rights do not extand to all the terrytory of the present ukrainian state.

What Polish rights are you talking about?

Why do you interfere into Polish Ukrainian matters? It is none of your business. :):):)

Blah ablah .............

Thank you for this informative remark. :):):):)

Do I propose to destroy Ukraine?NO!

Thanks God. Keep the nukes in silos and let them rust there. :):):)

It's all about interest, so Poles should look after their interest and Ukrainian after theirs.

And here is where disagreement lies because I think the opposite. And fortunately Polish political elites share this opinion.

Right now, there is some who want to be part of Russia, some who don't care and some who want independent country - let them sort it out by themselfs!

Poland should support the independent ones, that`s obvious.

pawian: PS. Ironside, last question. You are not Polish, are you? :):):)

Are you ? After your last post I have my doubts !

Yes, I am. And let me see if you are. :):):) What Polish words were once used in the past to check the national identity of disguised guys and differentiate them from real Poles? Say these words now...... :):):):):):):)
12 May 2009
History / Poland and Ukraine [240]

P.S. I won't even mention all the Ukrainian vojvodships, which on your map are marked with dark yellow and not green colour for some reason.

I know it has many shrotcomings, but as I said, it is the only map of that ****** kind available on the Net. :):):):)

It was Austrain partition zone (the poorest one). Secondly after 1918 (partition) Poles have started to industralize this arena.

First of all, during Austrian partition Poles in Galicia region had advanced autonomy. They governed such branches as economy, culture and education. Also, Poles took part in the main Austrian government, twice a Prime Minister was Polish.

The 5-year long project was initiated by a famous Polish economist, deputy Prime Minister and Minister of the Treasury, Eugeniusz Kwiatkowski. Its goal was to create a heavy industrial center in the middle of the country, as far as possible from any borders, strengthen the Polish economy and reduce unemployment.

As for COP, it was never implemented in Eastern regions, so you are talking about plans, not reality.

After 1918 there was no nobility and slave laubor was forbiden.

No nobility?? So, who owned land in Galicia after 1918??

In 17 century Polish peasants had the same life las Ukrainian one ...

Yes. You suggest that Poles didn`t develop their own country, neither Ukraine.

Nothing. Look at Germans and what they did in their partition zone which is in Poland today - they built and developed infrastructure, railways, roads, facilities, cities, which stand till today and are used by Poles in 21 century.
It was the Poles. Greater Poland always was one of the richest regions in Poland.

It isn`t only about Wielkopolska. Look at the map of railway network in today`s Poland. Do you see the difference between the east and west?


It was even worse in Ukraine. Despite partitions, Poles controlled economy in Galicia all the time. Since 14 century when Lvov was incorporated into the Polish kingdom till 1939, when Nazis-Soviets dismembered Poland.

What is more I see that you don't know history of Western Poland and use harmful stereotypes..

Look at my stereotypes in the railway map. :):):):)

I am not talking about invading them but they shouldn't receive anny support form Poland as long as thy haven't payed compensations.

I would prefer to call it a draw. Both nations harmed each other in the past and it is time to settle all conflicts. What you propose, is provoking more conflicts between Poles and Ukrainians.

Let me ask, whose interest is it if Poles and Ukrainians are conflicted??? :):):):)

Are you German agent ? LOL :)

Even if I am an agent of a foreign power, I am Polish and I am talking about matters which are vital to Poland. What about you? :):):):)

Ukraine is neo - nazi country oppressing half of its citiens. Gloryfing people who murdered Poles... It is going to be worst Polish enemy.

I can see you are really losing your temper here. Man, calm down. :):):)

Brutal methods such as beheading, disembowelling, and killing with knives and axes were employed against Polish people. In addition to the UPA, Ukrainian peasants also participated in the violence, and large groups of armed "bandit" marauders, unafiliated with UPA, brutalized civilians. The estimates of the number of Poles murdered in Ukraine range from 100,000 (Edward Prus, 2006) to 500,000 (Norman Davies, 1996)

Hmm, maybe the brutality of Ukrainian UPA was a result of Ukrainians` good memory? Who massacred a few hundred (300) Ukrainian inhabitants of Lvov (together with 70 Jews) after the city was captured by Polish forces in 1918? As you gladly quote Norman Davies above, read an excerpt from his book "Ethnic Diversity in Twentieth Century Poland."

At the end of a long battle for the city, elements of victorious Polish soldiery went back into certain streets and massacred inhabitants. An estimated 340 innocent people were killed. About 2/3 of them were Ukrainians. The remaining 70 or so were Jews.

Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko joined several public Ukrainian organizations in calls for reconciliation, pensions, and other benefits for UPA veterans that would equate them in status with the veterans of the Soviet Army, and aid the understanding of their role in the chaotic times of UPA operations. In 2007, president Yushchenko awarded the title "Hero of Ukraine", the country's highest honour to UPA leader Roman Shukhevych.

Joining or calling isn`t the same as passing the law. Do you see the difference? Here, in Poland, various groups also call for sth, but does it mean that all Poles support it?
6 May 2009
Food / Price of food and drink in Krakow (zubrowka, krupnik, lager) [5]

These are pub prices.
In a typical supermarket the cheapest beer can (strong) goes for 1.7 zlotys, on average 2.8. Wodka I don`t know cause I don`t buy it. Bread (0.5 kg) about 2.5 zlotys.

Check some threads in the forum for prices.