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Posts by craic_monster  

Joined: 19 Jul 2008 / Male ♂
Last Post: 21 Sep 2008
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Posts: Total: 44 / In This Archive: 39

Speaks Polish?: trochę mówie

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craic_monster   
19 Jul 2008
Life / "Gdzie jest barszcz?" How do I get talking Polish with real Poles? [16]

Obviously, one of the best ways of really learning a language is to talk to native speakers. But how?

Where I live, there are quite a few Poles and in theory it should be easy enough to get talking. But the reality is a little bit different, as most Poles seem to do their drinking at home, rather than in the local bars.

That rules out any chance of a friendly conversation over a pint or two.

There are alternatives, but they're potentially dodgy. One is to hang around the “speciality foods” section in the local supermarket, until someone who sounds potentially Polish comes along.

Then, as they reach for their pickled gherkins, you could say “Przeprasham, gdzie jest barszcz?”

Or you could accidentally bump into them with your trolley and say “Pzykro mi,” in the hope that it might spark a scintillating conversation.

Both strategies are fraught with danger. For all I know, asking where the barszcz is might have unhealthy – even seedy – overtones in Polish. And an overzealous bump with the trolley could lead to a stream of fluent Polish that's beyond the comprehension of a learner. Or worse.

An alternative might be to hang around the car park, looking for vehicles with Polish number plates, sidle up and ask for directions to the railway station. Which would seem strange – a red-haired and obviously Irish local asking a foreigner for directions.

Things are complicated yet further in that some foreign guests are from Lithuania and don't appear to embrace their fellow east Europeans with the warmth I'd expected. (My neighbour, from Lithuania, explained that his friend hated the Poles – but he couldn't quite remember why.)

My ear is not yet attuned to the linguistic niceties of Slavic/Baltic pronunciation, and there is indeed a great danger that in my excitement at hearing a “sz”-type sound I might mistakenly try out the barszcz strategy on someone who could regard my attempt to nurture cross-cultural understanding as a national insult.

So, I guess I'm asking if anyone can come up with risk-free methodologies that could initiate potentially positive encounters with real Poles.

Everything, from the sublime to the ridiculous, will be given careful consideration.

Seriously, though, it's strange to think that there is much Polish around me yet it's hard to access real native-speakers. It's all a little different from learning French at school because you don't really expect to be able to use it for real until you go to France.

Given the potential opportunities at home, my expectations for Polish are different.

Anyway, I await improvements on the “Gdzie jest barszcz?” strategy.
craic_monster   
22 Jul 2008
Life / "Gdzie jest barszcz?" How do I get talking Polish with real Poles? [16]

Hi,

I see what you're saying, Kowalski. It's not fair to treat native speakers of any language as a resource to be tapped when the mood takes you. The supermarket is not a classroom.

There's another underlying point there. You need to have a better-than-basic grasp of the language to become 'worth' talking to. Yet you can't get that until you've been talking to those you want to talk to. If you know what I mean!

I personally have no trouble in helping out someone who wants to learn my language, but that's just me. I love languages. My first language is Irish and I'm delighted to help people who want to learn a bit - but that's probably because I really want to spread the word and help promote what is my native language.

There are some good ideas in the thread, though. I suppose trying to help out in the Polish community, as Keith says, would be a very good way of learning some Polish and doing a little for cross-community understanding at the same time. That makes it a two-way process. Everyone benefits.

Switezianka, that's an excellent idea. I might just do that, although I'd be a little worried about crank calls from non-Polish speakers wanting to take the p**s. I could use a temporary SIM card to get around that problem though.

I think PolskaDoll's right about the 'natives' hitting the specialty food sections and not the Poles. When I'm in the supermarket I see people spending so much time looking at the packets that they simply can't be Polish!

Your Sklep Polski idea is a good one, though. I think there's one in my town and, if so, I'll check it out. BTW, there is one in Dublin and when I was there last week I did actually go in. Guess what I bought?

I don't know if I can get in contact with you directly to tell you precisely where I live because I never like to give out too much information on a message board which can be read by everyone but, as a rough idea, I'm in the northern part of County Armagh, which is in Northern Ireland.

As a complete aside, I'm going to a multi-cultural day (food-tasting, national dancing and so on) tomorrow. I asked the guy who's organising it if there would be Poles there.

There was a bit of confusion because the Irish words for Poles and police sound very similar and he was clearly wondering why anyone would want to know if the police would be attending a food-tasting event!

He said there wouldn't be any (Poles - not police!) but thought it was an excellent idea and he says he'll make sure there will be next year.

I hope I've done just a little to help promote Polish culture in Northern Ireland...
craic_monster   
26 Jul 2008
UK, Ireland / UK bus company boss jailed for hiring an incompetent Pole [71]

Don't get me wrong, guys, I'm not anti-Pole. If I was, I wouldn't be trying to learn the language or be on this forum.

But the other day I was driving in town when this artic pulled out of a side road. That's OK, as a biker I expect cr*p like that. Except that he pulled out onto the wrong side of the road - MY side of the road.

Yep, the lorry was Poland registered. Now, the guy could have been Slovenian, Bosnian or Czećen for all I know, but he drove like sh**e and he was Poland-registered.

Drivers of all nationalities who go trans-Europe (using right-side and wrong-side) should be forced to take a special test every year to make sure they're up to the job.

The aforementioned cretin wasn't up to the job and should begiven a good GPS system which means he doesn't have to go through housing estates in the first place.
craic_monster   
28 Jul 2008
Language / Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY? [40]

Gaelic will test u. Please write me the phonetic version of slainte mhaithe, or ceud mille failte

Hi a Sheanuis, fear le Gaeilge atá ionat? An-deas Gael eile a aimsiú ar an fhoram seo.

[In case the moderators are concerned, this simply means, "are you an Irish speaker?" and "It's very nice to find another Gael on this forum".]

Anyway, Gaelic/Celtic languages (Irish, Scots-Gaelic, Welsh, Breton and a few others) have retained a reasonably complex case structure, while the Romance languages have generally dispensed with such.

I'll use my own language, Irish, to illustrate that Polish has no monopoly on a case/gender system.

There are now only two genders, m/f, but the neuter is still to be found in, eg, placenames. As the language shifted, most neuter nouns became masculine.

The case structure has been heavily simplified over the years. Nominative and accusative have - broadly speaking - become one. The dative requires initial (but occasionally tertiary) mutation.

Where most learners struggle is in the genitive case. We can take two words and combine them. Hope you don't mind, Seanus, but I'll use your forum name as an example. Take "madadh" (dog) and "Seanus". In the genitive, this becomes "madadh Sheanuis" (Seanus' dog), demanding both initial and tertiary mutation.

This - for learners - can become really complicated when you want to say something like "the postman's dog's kennel". Even fluent native speakers have difficulty with that one and there is an increasing tendency among young speakers to deploy prepositions to overcome the more complex aspects of the genitive.

We still have a locative case, although it's (sadly) rarely used today and only in terms of placenames.

The vocative case remains in Irish, but the increasing use of English-based names means that it is often bypassed because the result can sound strange.

It's fine with a Celtic-based name like "Seanus" (Seanus, I assume your name is a síneadh fada-less diminutive version of Seán?). In that case, we have "Seán" in the nominative, but "a Sheáin" in the vocative.

To an Irish speaker, this sounds totally normal. But if we take a name like "Beverly", the "B" at the start changes to "Bh", turning it into a "v" sound instead of "b". (This is the "voiced" -v- "unvoiced" aspect that is a building block of language.) Because we're used to the name in English as a rule, it sounds a bit silly in Irish and most people would avoid the initial mutation.

There is no instrumental in Irish. Instead, we use the copula, a complicated "defective" verb which equates to the X = Y format but goes far beyond that. There are other ways of saying the same thing, requiring prepositions. "Múinteoir atá ionam", for example, literally means "It is a teacher that is in me", or "Tá mé i mo mhúinteoir", which means "I am in my teacher". All of these translate to "I am a teacher".

I grew up with Irish, so it isn't a "complicated" language for me, but I understand why those who did not find it difficult. The sounds are different, the morphology is different and the structures are different.

Polish is a difficult language, but that's because I'm approaching it as a learner. If I'd been born in Poland instead of Ireland I wouldn't be thinking it's difficult.

Apologies for what has turned out to be post way longer than I planned, but I hope it helps to explain that cases, genders and so on are not something exclusive to Polish.

However, Polish does take things a stage further in that there are more cases, more genders and a predilection for mutating even words that end in a vowel.

But do let us not forget that, while English is simple in terms of the noun, it makes up for this simplicity in other ways. With no accents on vowels, the phonetics must be a nightmare for learners.

And then what about the verb?
craic_monster   
28 Jul 2008
Language / Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY? [40]

That's Scots-Gaelic.

It means - roughly - Who was that sheep I saw you with last night?

Free Scotland!

Whoever it was, their Scots-Gaelic grammar is pretty good, but the message was a wee bit rude!

Text back with Buckfast forever!
craic_monster   
31 Jul 2008
Language / Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY? [40]

I didn't mean to make it sound as though Polish was really complicated.

I just wanted to make it clear that it's not the only language with cases and genders.

English has become really simple, to the extent that everyone can learn it easily. However, the simpler a language becomes, the more difficult it is in other ways. The verb in English is much more complicated than the Polish...

And, without accents on letters, it's very difficult to work out how English sounds for a learner.

That's my point, there's no such thing really as an "easy" language.

Most languages have genders and cases. English has cases, but they've been incredibly simplified to the extent that you wouldn't know they even exist.
craic_monster   
31 Jul 2008
Language / Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY? [40]

Hi,

I was merely trying to reassure the original poster that, complicated though Polish might seem, it does not have a monopoly on cases and genders, which seemed to be his/her primary concern.

As a learner, I can say that Polish is complicated but I'm reminded that some Aboriginal languages have four genders: masculine, feminine, neuter and anything that's edible!

Even as someone brought up with a case/gender system I can attest that Polish is complex. The instrumental case is new to me and many prepositions are used in ways I could have never expected.

Use of the genitive is especially confusing, particularly in negation.

Anyway, very nice to meet you. I've seen your name in many threads. I hope you can help me when I post questions about Polish.

I like the cat - it's got attitude.

Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY?

Cos they're fun.
craic_monster   
8 Aug 2008
Life / "Gdzie jest barszcz?" How do I get talking Polish with real Poles? [16]

Just as an update on my thread, I've recently met a delightful Polish family who have been wonderfully helpful and friendly. They really are lovely people and have given me a huge amount of encouragement.

Unfortunately (for me, but probably not for them), they're moving on. Piotr (the son) and his girlfriend (Kasia) are going back to Lublin, while his parents, Piotr and Lucy, are going to Nottingham in England.

I'm sad because they're going so soon, but I'm sad because of something else as well. Piotr Senior (I almost called him Stary Piotr the first time I met him but thought this might sound insulting! Is it?) is a doctor and Lucy is a lawyer.

Yet Lucy is here in Northern Ireland, working in a department store and on her feet eight hours a day. There's nothing wrong with working in a department store but I couldn't believe that someone with her training is doing that.

She told me that she hopes she might get "something a little bit better" in Nottingham.

I do hope that Poland gets itself sorted out economically so that people like them can get properly paid to do the jobs that they trained so hard for.

BTW, I will probably (if I'm allowed to) start a new thread to ask Poles "over here" what they did in Poland and what they're doing now.

Anyway, Piotr (nie Stary Piotr!) will be going back to Lublin with a little reminder of Northern Ireland - Bushmills, the oldest whiskey in the world.
craic_monster   
8 Aug 2008
Life / "Gdzie jest barszcz?" How do I get talking Polish with real Poles? [16]

How did you get around to meeting them in the first place though?

Not by asking "Gdzie jest barszcz?" They're really quiet people but a letter was mis-delivered to my dad's house and he took it across the road to them and started chatting.

They were so quiet that you would never have known what language they spoke or where they were from so I reckon it was a happy combination of circumstances.

Of course you're right - I can get their email addresses and keep in touch.

Thanks for the positive feedback on the thread idea. If it's ok with you I'll launch it next week. What's the best forum for it d'you think?

Cześć,

Jan

PS - PolskaDoll, let me know if it's OK for me to PM you. I know I can, but I always prefer to ask permission first.
craic_monster   
8 Aug 2008
News / Poland's Future Includes Fewer Poles, More Foreigners [324]

pretty much when the free state was changed to republic of ireland..some members moved across to the north of ireland to help the IRA who was based in the 6 counties. Most activitives took place in south armagh,..also known as bandit country. this was the IRA strong hold. the provos where in a league of there own compared to any of the rest.

Pzykro mi, but I must answer this statement in what the poster should, as an Irishman, understand as his native language:

Ní raibh na Provos i sráith dá gcuid féin i nÉirinn. An bhfuil tú ag rá go bhfuil lorg na fola le moladh? Más mar sin é, amadán amach is ea tusa.

Is fíor gur tharla mórán rudaí i nDeisceart Ard Mhacha ach nach raibh na Sealadaigh gnóthach i mBéal Feirste agus i Londonderry fosta? (Sea, dúirt mé Londonderry!)

Sílim go bhfuil dallóg ort, a chara bhig. Cinnte, bhí lucht an IRA (an SEÁN IRA) gníomhach i gCorcaigh ach cá mhéad acu a bhog ó thuaidh mar gheall ar na Trioblóidí.

Sa deireadh thiar an bhfuil blas na fola níos tábhachtaí ná beatha duine? Tá súil agam nach bhfuil tú ag tabhairt ómóis dóibh siúd a bhí sona fáil réidh le duine chun cuspóir gan fiúntas a bhaint amach!

For the benefit of English and Polish speakers I guess I'm saying that our Irish experience is of no relevance whatsoever.

Yes, we benefited from the EU in a big way but budgets, borders and priorities have changed.

There's no way that Poland will enjoy the same level of investment that we enjoyed, given that more countries are now part of a financially-limited equation.

So, Miranda, don't worry about Ireland or what happened here. Given our history, we are not a good example to follow.
craic_monster   
10 Aug 2008
Language / Cases, Genders, Nominative, Instrumental...WHY? [40]

I guess every language has its own complexities in some way. Polish is by far the most difficult I've ever tried to learn but I didn't want to say that in case I put people off. :)

Five gender distinctions are indeed a frightening prospect.
craic_monster   
10 Aug 2008
Travel / Alone in Krakow, what to do? [25]

In case of problems say that you are Irish, not British.

Jestem Irlandczykiem. To jest prawda.

Seriously, is being Irish safer than being English?

Anyway, a couple of questions about Kraków, where I'm headed soon. To jest mój pierwszy raz w Polsce.

1. Do people appreciate it if you speak Polish, even if not perfectly, or would they prefer English?

Krakow is a tourist city and there is a lot of spoken English - you will do fine.

Honestly, Miranda, I'd prefer to speak Polish but do local people have the patience to put up with those whose first language it clearly isn't?

2. Where are the best jazz venues? Not the big touristy ones.

3. What are the best venues in the city to listen to traditional Polish music? Again, not the touristy ones.

4. If I'm out late, is it easy to get a taxi back to the hotel? (It certainly isn't in Dublin on a Saturday night!)

Dziękuyę bardzo
craic_monster   
14 Aug 2008
Language / I need a good dictionary! (book) [21]

There's loads to choose from.

I was in my university bookshop recently and I found about seven. I spent at least an hour looking through them to try and make up my mind.

But don't ask us. What sort of dictionary do you need?

Money should never be a problem with a dictionary. They're not really dear unless you want a multi-volume brute.

And, if you're only learning basic Polish, will you really need it?

Mind you, I think that, if your level is fairly basic, Usborne do a "First Thousand Words in Polish" book aimed at children.

Actually, that's a good idea. I've just checked it out and I'm going to buy a copy myself!

Jestem aktorem. I'm not, but you begin to understand how words change.

So here's my big leap of faith. To jest Warszawa. Chciałbym dojechać do Warszawy. Mieszkam w Warszawia.

Cjic, I'm no expert in Polish and I've no idea what level you've achieved but I would recommend the easiest approach you can possibly take.
craic_monster   
14 Aug 2008
Language / How to say that you dont speak polish in polish? [23]

Even if your Polish is rubbish, make sure you use it.

To jest język polski. (this is the polish language)
Nie znam języka polskiego. (i don't know the polish language)

Catz is right, but that's hardcore Polishl At least for a learner. I think the second sentence is in the genitive, while the first is in the nominative.

So, Polish is complicated but English is easy? What about the dipthongs and incredibly complex tenses.

Polish is the reverse.

I don't think Polish has complex dipthongs and tenses/moods but the complexity lies in the noun and adjective. I stand (willingly) to be corrected...and I'm sure there will be many who can do accordingly.

Anyway, just use the Polish you know. Even if it is a matter of life and death nobody will care that you used the locative when you should have used the instrumental.
craic_monster   
14 Aug 2008
Language / I need a good dictionary! (book) [21]

Thanks polishgirltx.

Any time you see a post of mine and I'm using rubbish Polish please correct it.

Ian
craic_monster   
16 Aug 2008
News / Third World War and the role of Poland [82]

the biggest problem in the US currently is the banking system, which is owned by the Elites/Zionists

the EU and US are the political mechanism of the global banking apparatus (Rothschild & their satellites)...they want total world dominance

Joe, as you're clearly the rezydent expert on finance and banking, many of us, I am certain, would like to draw from the unquenchable fountain of your economic omniscience.

Firstly, I'm visiting Poland next month, so how many złoty should I expect for my euro?

Secondly, as I don't want to use any bank which might be tainted with the greasy fingers of "Elitism", might I be best rejecting that inestimably corrupt system altogether and reverting to the ancient principles of barter?
craic_monster   
22 Aug 2008
History / Why did Poland remove the Eagle from the Flag? [26]

Guess the eagle got kinda tired and just flew away to be on someone else's flag.

I see you found something else to stick on your own flag...
craic_monster   
22 Aug 2008
History / Why did Poland remove the Eagle from the Flag? [26]

Am going at the end of next week. I like the idea of gritty industrial realism, but I suppose I heard so much about it when I was a child watching TV that it sounded fascinating and stuck in my head.

They were always talking about Gdansk, Gdinia and Nowa Huta Steelworks. The names fascinated me.

Hopefully, I'll get the chance to meet 'real' people, instead of the tourist-orientated ones.

Besides, it's not too far from Kraków. So I guess I can get the best of both worlds.
craic_monster   
9 Sep 2008
Language / I need a good dictionary! (book) [21]

Czescz all,

Just back from Poland where I bought myself a great kids' dictionary in Empik, the big book and music store. You can't get anything like it on Amazon or anywhere else - you have to be in Poland.

Obviously, it's aimed at Polish kids, but English and Polish words are listed on every page. Illustrowany Słownik: Angielsko-Polski is the title, written by Jacek Lang.

A word of warning, though - it's not for the easily offended. If the thread continues I'll give a few examples.

But not tonight. The flight was delayed and I've just left scorching hot temperatures of 28-30 celsius (scorching for a red-headed, freckled Irishman) and returned to wind and rain!

By the way, there's nothing like going to Poland to improve your Polish. It's a beautiful country and the people are so friendly. My Polish is rubbish, but I believe people really made an extra effort to understand me because I was trying.

And I should know, because the one thing that's worse than my Polish is my map-reading, which meant I had to ask directions about every 200 metres.

Polska jest dobra i język jest trudny ale lubię Polskę. (Did I say that right?)

Do widzenia,

Ian
craic_monster   
9 Sep 2008
Language / I need a good dictionary! (book) [21]

Thanks polishgirltx,

Enjoyed it so much I'm going back to see all the things I didn't have time to see.

I'd have seen so much more if it hadn't been for the wódka - I've just received an email from a guy I met in Poland who said that he'd an awful hangover the morning after dużo wódka.

I'm actually quite proud that I was able to keep up with a real Pole! But then we Irish have our international reputation to maintain as well. Even if it meant I missed my trip to Wieliczka.

It always takes me about three days to get my bearings, so when I go back to Małopolska I'll know where I'm going - and what tramwaj goes where.

Ian