Language / a new Polish alphabet for internet and sms.... [29]

Polish without diacritics in email or texting is easy enough to read as long as diacritics are used everywhere else so even the non-native user can tell from context what's intended (usually).

On the other hand, the very thought of trying to read a 10 page article or book without diacritics is awful.

I heard once that in the 50's there was serious thought given to replacing cz, sz, rz and ż in Polish with the Czech letters è š ř ž and replacing w with v. So that (to take a paragraph or two from onet) Polish would look like this:

"Stany Zjednoèone i Rosja traktują povstanie tarèy antyrakietovej v Polsce jako zdecydovane i rozmaviają o tym jako o fakcie dokonanym ponad głovami Polakóv - poviedział politolog amerykanista dr Gřegoř Kostřeva-Zorbas.

- To jest rezultat strategiènego błędu, który Polska popełniła na šèycie NATO v Bukarešcie, gdzie vystępovała v dvóch rolach na raz: jako kraj, na terenie którego tarèa može povstać vedług planu amerykańskiego i jako jeden z sojušnikóv, któřy ten plan přyjęli z uznaniem. Zatem Polska přesądziła vynik svoich negocjacji z Ameryką. Rezultatem tego błędu jest přyjęcie v Vašyngtonie, v Moskvie i na śviecie překonania, že tarèa v Polsce povstanie - poviedział Kostřeva-Zorbas."

Language / a new Polish alphabet for internet and sms.... [29]


Did you really read what I wrote?
I wasn't giving my proposal but repeating one that I heard had been taken seriously at one time and showing what the result would have looked like. I'm pretty neutral on whether it would have been a good idea (now it wouldn't be).

And I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean.

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]

"I suppose word "fucking" always (at any context ) has STRONG sexual associations independent from context and current meaning related with that context."

Not necessarily:

"przypierdoliłem głową w słup" could be (in my dialect):

"I fucking banged my head on that pole." or (I banged my head on that fucking pole. or I fucking banged my head on that fucking pole.)

None of those has any connotations of sex whatsoever.

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]

"I get that the "imperfect" form is the most untouched form of a verb (I think..). What is the difference between imperfect and perfect?"

First, the imperfect is not the most 'untouched' form of a verb. (I know many dictionaries act as if this were the case but it's not). Often the perfective is the more basic form. kupić is more basic than kupować, przeprosić is more basic than przepraszać etc etc

Related to this, heed the warning of someone who's been there. Do not go around learning 'aspect pairs' (starting with the imperfective and then learning which perfective goes with it). That's a losing game and no one who's tried (that I know of) is very satisfied with the results.

It is a good idea to get a conscious knowledge of how perfective and imperfective verbs are derived from each other, but

My street-grammar guide to aspect.

First - think of perfective and imperfective verbs with the 'same' meaning as different verbs, it's easier. There are basically two aspect classes (with some sub-classes) perfective and imperfective. Each verb goes into one of the two.

Second - to figure out the aspect of a verb in context (warning: complex)
1. figure out the root
2. figure out the aspect class
3. count the kind and number of morphological processes (and the order they take place in)

there are three basic kinds of morphological processes that verbs can follow in terms of aspect:

prefixation : anytime you add a prefix, the result is perfective
added -w- : this involves adding some kind of suffix with a -w- the usual purpose is to form an imperfective verb when the more basic form is perfective, (odczytywać from odczytać, roughly 'read from, decypher'

'a-hardening' : this is messy, basically you the final vowel (usually to a, sometimes with other changes) and 'harden' consonants in the stem zapraszać from zaprosić.

so,

prosić - root - proś = imperfective

zaprosić - root - proś = imperfective + prefix za- = perfective

zapraszać (a-hardening) applied to stem = imperfective

otworzyć = stem = otworz- pefective
otwierać = a-hardening = imperfective

Final note: occasionally some roots don't seem to inherently belong to either aspect class and both forms need to be derived.

zamknąć = zamk + -nąć (nąć is a perfective marker)
zamykać = zamk + a-hardening (including the weird insertion of -y-)

I hope this wasn't too confusing, I'll try to explain more if it is (or not, your call).

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]


fuck has three basic meanings in English (according to this native speaker)

1. sexual activity (primarily but not only conventional heterosexual intercourse) Polish equivalents would be pierdolić, jebać. For this meaning to really apply there needs to be an overt direct object (or plural subject). Mrs Jones began fucking the delivery boy on Wednesday afternoons. They got drunk and fucked.

2. a semantically empty expletive (that is so fucking cool) here the Polish equivalent is kurwa (zamknij się kurwa / shut the fuck up; co kurwa robisz? what the fuck are you doing?) how often when using kurwa do Polish people think of prostitutes?

3. similar to Polish expletive non-sexual pierdolić (though there are nowhere near as many forms as in Polish) where it forms part of a verb phrase with coverb prefix in Polish with preposition in English) but without the sexual meaning: Off the top of my head I can think of:

fuck up: intranstive = make a mess of a situation, fail

fuck up someone (or fuck someone up): transitive = make life difficult for someone and/or beat someone up

fuck someone over: transitive = cheat, deceive

fuck off: leave, get lost (mostly restricted to imperative)

There's probably a few more but this usage (like I said) is nowhere near as extensive as in Polish.

Life / Cultural readjustment... returning to Poland from the West. [58]


Little known fact. For many, many people who've spent considerable time in a foreign culture, the culture shock is actually worse when they return home to their native cultures.

There are a lot of reasons for this (not the least being that it's so unexpected) but note that the real reasons have little to do with living standards or government idiocy per se (I get freaked out when I go back to the states which is why I've been back so rarely). Also, it does tend to pass though readaptation can take longer than anyone expects.

My advice is be there for her and don't try to reason with her. A lot of "yes, yes" and "I know, I know" and an unwavering sympathetic demeanor is probably the best cure (and/or at the right time verbally sparring in the Polish manner if you're up to it - nothing wakes Polish people up quite like a heated, if ultimately trivial, argument).

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]

Structure, structure, structure.

For fuck to have a sexual meaning, certain conditions have to be met which are violated two words into this sentence. The use of an -ing form after the contraction 'I'll' with no intervening form of 'be' would prevent any native speaker from assuming a sexual meaning. Basically to have a sexual meaning it has to be the main verb. Coincidentally some years ago the Polish group Hey (which sometimes sang songs in something sort of like English) had a song with a line in it "but I fuck it" which was probably not meant to be sexual but which for most native speakers could only be interpreted sexually.

"Za sranie przy ścieżce przypierdolę łopatą!" which I would casually translate as "I'll fucking give you a whack if you shit on the path!"

I'd go: If you shit on the path, I'll fucking beat you with a shovel" or "shit on the path and I'll beat you with a fucking shovel" (the expletive fucking is usually inserted just before the main stress)

Finally, "I'll give you a whack" doesn't have an established sexual meaning but I think it easily could take on such a meaning, in which case it would mean "I'll give you a hand job" which may or may not discourage people from defecating near said path.

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]

I would say that particular basic principle is the same in every language, there are always extra associations (helpfully left out of dictionaries most of the time) that words or expressions have that don't lend themselves to (graceful) translation.

But where and how extra associations occur will differ by language. Fuck is a pretty unimaginative word and is inherently kind of aggressive. This makes it hard to do very much with it (any English equivalent of the lopata sign that uses a form of fuck will be crude and aggressive but not very expressive or imaginitive) So you're right that a big part of the Polish uses of -pierdolić (with prefix) will be lost in English, just adding in some form of fuck won't do it (but it's generally all that can be done).

My go at the sign in question using the resources of (American) English a little better: "Take a dump on this trail and I'll dump on your ass with a shovel." or maybe even "Empty your ass on this trail and I'll fill it back up with a shovel."

Language / Difference between Polish Imperf. and Perf. forms "pierdolic" [58]

Well thinking in terms of individual words is how we got into this mess. But if you want coarse, then I'll give you coarse ...

"Shit on this trail and I'll fuck you with a shovel."
I'm appalled that I just wrote that.

Life / Polish movies - what they are like? [34]

"Ogniem i Mieczem (translaited as With Fire and Sword)"

Pet peeve, I think "By fire and sword" both sounds better and is maybe even more accurate than the traditional translation, which is accurate enough but lacks oomph.

I used to really enjoy the smaller neighborhood movie theaters but I really don't enjoy the multiplex "experience". I remember when they first started appearing some idiotic journalists were oohing about how this would mean more and different kinds of movies were being shown. Fat chance.

News / What are your 10 fave things about Poland? And 10 least favourite? [130]

What I hate about showing movies with a voice over translation (lektor) is that it ruins the movie for people who share the language of the original even if they know Polish. Neither subtitles nor dubbing manages that trick.

Of the three ways of localizing movies I think voice over is by far the worst aesthetically for that reason alone. It's the only form of translation that I think some directors (Spielberg and Kubrick IINM) absolutely don't want their work subjected too.

I can stand watching a French movie with a voice over (even German or Spanish which I know as foreign languages) but an English language movie with a lektor is just awful.

It has a low reputation in Poland but real dubbing (as done in larger western european countries) doesn't destroy a movie quite like a lektor. I'd rather watch German dubbed tv than Polish lektorized tv (even though my German isn't as good as my Polish).

Fortunately with dvd's I can tell the lektor to shut up (and use Polish subtitles if the original isn't in English).

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

I don't wish I was Polish but I do love the language (and wish I were significantly better at it in some areas).

One problem is that _really_ advanced courses for non-natives essentially don't exist.

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

Bo jestem upierdliwy.

Language / How Many of you love the Polish Language? [79]

And there's a difference between being fluent in most ways (and wanting to be even more fluent) and being ignorant and helpless. I've seen a few foreigners who didn't even try to learn Polish and that's a choice that doesn't lead anywhere good.

Study / Polish Language School Scams? Clarity Required! [28]

I think Mr Bubbles is right.

Plus (I'm less sure here) if you're working umowa o dzieło then you might not be getting health insurance which would make any medical attention a strictly paid process.

Study / Polish Language School Scams? Clarity Required! [28]

I thought it wasnt just teachers but anyone was exempt for two years (if there's an agreement between the governments involved).

Life / Polish Dinner Guest - should I bring vodka or wine? [15]


While traditional Polish practice is indeed to open a bottle brought by a guest right away, in the US (in my experience) the opposite has traditionally been true. Bottles brought by dinnger guests are not opened while the guest is there (unless the guest is supposed to bring drinks). I don't know about Canadian practice.

Life / Polish Dinner Guest - should I bring vodka or wine? [15]

The absolute best thing would be something Canadian (if that's where you're from) but if that's not possible then I agree that vodka is safer than wine. Even better might be cognac or brandy.

Study / Polish Language School Scams? Clarity Required! [28]

One simple tactic I heard used to happen in Warsaw (in the 90's) was to "hire" a native speaker and just not pay them (through a combination of excuses and being hard to find). The trick was to see how many lessons you could get out of them before they wised up (you'd be surprised how many). And even with a contract most natives were too weak in language and savvy to be able to get it enforced.

By the time the native realized what's going on the school had usually gotten a month or more of free lessons out of them and there was usually another naive native waiting to take their place (at which point the game would begin anew).

Food / I can't handle it anymore...I'm cooking curry... [34]


Not in Warsaw. As someone mentioned mint is about to come into season so you should be able to find fresh garden mint at open markets without too much trouble.

Also, Vietnamese people _love_ mint. You can usually buy fresh mint (Thai - more peppermint) at the Asian grocery on poznanska street (if it's still there) or wherever it is that Vietnamese people find it (formerly at the stadium but now ...?)

Work / Job as an English speaking accountant Motor Trade Accountancy? [4]


Yes and no.

Generally, Polish companies are eager to hire Polish speakers who know English well (generally the more fluent the better). But, they're really not in the market for English speakers who don't know Polish (the phrase 'more trouble than they're worth' comes to mind). There is a greater likelihood of an English speaker who knows Polish language and customs well being hired but they'll be paid (and treated) like native Polish staff which is carries its own problems.

The English monolinguals in Poland are usually sent there by non-Polish companies operating in Poland and there may be staff around to smooth the way for them in various areas (which the foreigners in question may or may not realize).

Life / Why is Polka music played in Poland so much different than in the USA? [36]

In modern Poland, the Polka is one of the least represented musical forms as young, educated people wouldn't be caught dead doing anything connected with traditional Polish and (in their minds) uneducated/peasant culture.

Life / Why is Polka music played in Poland so much different than in the USA? [36]

Franku, relax. I'm not Polish (or a youth). Also, I like Polkas and think it's a shame that they're neglected in Poland. But they are neglected and the prevailing attitude among young educated Poles is basically what I wrote (again: I disagree).

News / Wojtek Cejrowski gives up his Polish citizenship! [19]


That was always the impression I had of him (back in his days with his program ... Kwadrans WC?).

I think he's probably smart and kind of funny but he has some really awful ideas.

And link to the story?

Life / The nations Poles don't like (stats) [55]


Very common translation problem (hard to call it an error, even if it does frequently lead to misunderstandings).

For most native english speakers, 'nation' means 'country' (in Polish 'kraj')

But here it's being used (confusingly) as a translation of the Polish 'naród' which is 'ethnic group' or sometimes (though not here) 'nationality'.

UK, Ireland / WHY DO POLISH PEOPLE THAT COME TO ENGLAND CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? [118]


No. In Polish you'd say Polacy, but in English either "Polish people" or maybe "Poles" (no need for the article in this case) would sound better. It sounds strange to say "the Poles" every time that Polacy would occur in Polish.


Why on earth would anyone want that? I personally don't mind dubbing (though I hate voice-overs (lektor)). I think it would be hideous to go to Italy (for example) and turn on the tv and hear English.

UK, Ireland / WHY DO POLISH PEOPLE THAT COME TO ENGLAND CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? [118]


I agree that no article and the past tense 'came' would be wrong, I was thinking in the present tense "that come to England" which could be either with or without the article (with a change in meaning).

Life / The nations Poles don't like (stats) [55]


In most, modern, mainstream, native English nation = country 'kraj'.
Poland is a nation. Polish people are a nationality or an ethnic group.

The overlap of ethnic Poles and Polish nationals is very high but not universal. Ethnic Poles may be citizens of any country and Polish nationals (defined as a citizen of the Republic of Poland) are not necessarily ethnic Poles.

Gypsies are an ethnic group (more accurately a number of ethnic groups) spread out over many countries and forming a majority in none.
Jewish people are a ethno-religious group that form a majority in one country but the term Israeli and Jewish are not interchangeable.
Arab is a cover term for a number of different nationalities and ethnic groups that form majorities in a number of countries.

Calling Poles, Gypsies, Jews and Arabs 'narody' in Polish is correct usage. Calling them all 'nations' in English creates too much potential misunderstanding where the word has too many potential meanings.

UK, Ireland / WHY DO POLISH PEOPLE THAT COME TO ENGLAND CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? [118]

Yeah, any long term resident in a country with a different language (no matter the reason for their presence) needs to become proficient enough in the language for survival, carrying out daily business.

But I find myself pretty unconcerned about the topic here for two reasons:

a) Most British residents in Poland (there are some welcome exceptions of course) don't make any special effort to assimilate linguistically before arriving or in some cases after many years of residence here.

b) Even those Poles in the UK can speak/read English very well will also prefer to speak Polish to other Poles and also want access to Polish media/information etc. and there's no reason why they shouldn't.

UK, Ireland / WHY DO POLISH PEOPLE THAT COME TO ENGLAND CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH? [118]

I fully agree that Polish officials could use some basic lessons in how to communicate with non-native speakers of Polish.

For what it's worth, many people (regardless of language and country) don't understand everything in those kinds of contexts either, but may prefer not to ask for explanations, clarifications or repetitions so they end up spending lots of unecessary time with repeat visits and/or arguments.

My basic technique whether in the US or in Poland is to politely ignore the official's frustration and politely repeat everything I've understood (or paraphrase what I think they're telling me to do) until I'm reasonably sure I understand what to do and in what order. It takes more time during the initial visit but saves time later on.