Life / Whats gay life in Poland? [140]

Hi all

I had to throw something funny here as I was giggling thinking about it when I read this topic.

My dad still has Polish friends who don't speak English very well, and he's quite good with English and jokes. His favourite game is when he introduces them to his Aussie colleagues saying "This is Jurek etc...etc..." and he finishes by saying "I'm happy, he's gay", while dad's poor mate is busy smiling, nodding and shaking hands, oblivious to what it actually means. To actually see it happen is an absolute cracker!

Cheers, Dan

Language / Your Funniest / Strangest / Sadest Moments with the Polish Language [63]

My brother and I grew up with a Polish dad who loved using Polish adjectives and nouns mingled with English sentences - I'm sure soem of you will have a parent like that. Little did we know that the Polish words he used were the vulgar ones.

My brother went to Poland a few years ago and stayed with our relatives (quite conservative apparently). He thought he'd be smart and use those Polish words my dad had ingrained in our heads - he didnt really know any others. So when my brother wanted to use the toilet, he asked where's the "srutch??" which he found out after all these years means "shithouse".

It was pretty windy, so he proudly said "it's pizdzy??" which translated to something like farting.

He had a few more shockers like that. My bro said he'd never been so embarrassed in his life. My dad just laughed wehen he heard about it - bastard!

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]

Isthatu,

I wont bother quoting anything from your last post because there's nothing there worth quoting.

Again, I'm disappointed at your response. I though at the very least you would have given a thoughtful response to some of the arguments I made rather than a couple of cheap shots.

My last paragraphs make nonsense of your stance of us being poor wrteched victims, yet you chose not to rise to that challenge by offering a view. One can only surmise why you chose to take the easy route with your brief comments.

Don't call me naive please. I put a caveat on that hypothetical scenario as being my unashamed patriotic view. Dont praise the way I've worded my posts because I can see the sneer on your face as you wrote it. I'm quite happy to say I've never heard of Kevin Smith so it really means nothing to me. I word my posts carefully and write in that fashion becasue that's the way I convey my respect for you and your arguments. I can quite easily write and talk in a less reader friendly and more ocker way but that's for my less academic friends in my day to day world.

I honestly thought you were bigger than that. I recall you saying something about reading more and posting less (forgive me for not trolling thru your posts and giving the full quote). There's another layer to that - once you read something, you read between the lines and analyse what you have taken in.

I'm more than happy to admit your posts on this topic gave me some serious food for thought and caused me to question and reconsider some of my perceptions and beliefs. If nothing else, I hope that I gave you some food for thought too. As to your assertion that you 'know the truth was very different', the truth is subjective. On the topic we have been debating it may never be known. It's clear to me that we will never be able to wholly convince each other to accept our competing views. I'll leave it to the forum to decide.

Best regards to you and yours mate. Dan

Genealogy / strange Polish mixes [116]

I'm referred to as continental soup. My father is Polish, my mother is Croatian/Slovakian. The ancestors on my father's side had married Irish, French and Lithuanian women. In the 1860's, a female of my family married a son of O'Bria/e?n De Lacy. They were killed by the Russians as legend has it. Apparently De Lacy came from Ireland to asssit in the insurrection. I was quite surprised when one of my best friends several years ago, who is an ancestor of the De Lacy's, told me this after he looked at his family tree.

My lady is Spanish. My father calls my new born son "Little tartar" due to his looks. I honoured his Polish heritage by calling him Lukasz.

Cheers, Dan

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]


With respect Isthatu, I now feel that this is just silly games from you. I took issue with you on my last post for your misconceptions of my arguments and you come back with the same except directed to me. This smacks of evasion.


The longevity or effectiveness of the strike didnt calculate in my argument. I say that the Poles would have honoured the agreement regardless. Poles have a history of fighting against insuperable odds and a tradition of assisting their allies and friends.


No, I'm not forgetting this issue. There was the whole period of 39 to 45 wherein GB (and the other allies to be fair) had the chance to assist Poland to attempt to secure her own freedom, or clearly advise her that this wasn't coming. The Poles were simply strung along with grand speeches and promises by Churchill and Roosevelt that Poland would emerge from the war undiminished. Why would they say that? Because they feared losing some of their most able troops if they didn't.


They fought for GB with a view that their efforts would be repaid or honoured in kind. They were told this would be the case by the highest authority. Whether their motives were altruistic viz GB or selfish is immaterial. They were part of a team and shouldered their responsibilites admirably and in good faith. In many instances, as you know, Poles fought with a courage and tenacity that went beyond expectation. That is the nature of a wartime alliance. It appears that you have been sadly misled if you believe that a wartime alliance is representing to an ally that they wouldnt be let down, accept their contributions and then, when it's too late, say sorry, we can't really do anything for you but thanks for your efforts.


It's no argument, it's a fact. A particularised list per se of contributions is not needed. It is common knowledge. The argument I make is that the contributions made byu Poland were not commensurate to the gain received. The reason the gain or benefit was not commensurate was because the alliance or team let Poland down. Saying "we couldnt have done more" or "we did what we could" or "how could we have fought the Russians" is immaterial in the present day, because those sentiments should have been clearly, concisely and swiftly conveyed to the Poles in the early 40's when it became apparent that aid wasn't coming and it wasn't foreseeable.

To do otherwise, which in fact did occur, is pure, unadulterated fraud and misrepresentation. Had the Poles been advised of the allies position viz aid/assistance/fulfilling their contractual obligations/their attitude of slavish appeasement toward Stalin, the Poles would have had a choice to keep fighting as emigres or direct their efforts toward fighting their way back to Poland and face whatever fate awaited them. My unashamed and patriotic view - the Poles would have fulfilled their immediate obligations to their international comrades, deeply thanked them for the unfirom and gun provided, marched, flown, crawled or driven to Poland, annihilating any enemy in their way, arrive in Poland, put the fear of God into Stalin.... who knows? They werent given the chance. The outcome would than have been squarely on their shoulders and we wouldnt be having these kinds of arguments today.

As an aside, it's strange how the Polish para brigade wasn't released despite Boor's pleading during the Rising. I think that's a good example of the line of thought dispalyed in this paragraph. I won't riposte with a witty pun as you saw fit to deliver and miss, because your words have received the response they so richly deserve.

Regards, Dan

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]

Thanks again for your responses. I enjoyed reading them.


Yes, exactly. I surmise that Poland would have honoured the promise and done just that. I think that's a reasobnable assumption, going off histroical precedents.


Why is it distasteful? Because it causes discomfiture when the deeds and misdeeds are brought to account. My thoughts on that issue cannot in any way have precipitated your response in that paragraph. I set out to illustrate that the benefits accrued by Poles from the efforts and contributions they made were in no way commensurate.


I'm a bit disappointed at this but that's your prerogative.


WW3? Where did that come into it? The meaning of the sentence is quite clear. There was an alliance between GB and Poland (and others to to be fair). The Poles fulfilled their part of the contract and GB (and the allies) did not, ergo, there was no payment in kind.

As to the mine detectors, please dont resort to idiosyncratic contributions as suggestive of evidence that they were the only contributions made. It's poor form to receive help then question the helper as to the volume and method of delivery of that help.


I didnt mean it in that way at all. I explained the background to that hypothesis in the paragraph preceding it, and you know perfectly well what my argument was, so your tangential assessment of allied contributions is needless because it's known to any student of history. Smoke and mirrors may work well in the esteemed discussion circles and educated environs you frequent when not paying the Polish forum a visit, but please dont try it here ;-).

Regards, Dan

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]


Thanks for your detailed response. Notwithstanding the 'hypothetical' nature of it, I think you're pretty close tot he mark. Paraphrased, the GB govt did not have the guts or the temerity to honour their promise. That's it really isnt it? Put the shoe on the other foot, and I think it's safe to say the Poles would have acted differently. Big call, but there it is.


It is and it does answer it well.


These were token offers. The assistance given tot he SOE by the Poles far outweighed any benefit derived by the Poles. With the exception of a few men and women of conscience, it seems apparent that Poles were merely used as a convenient tool. As I said, the balance sheet of Polish contributions to the GB contributions is heavily stacked in Poland's favour. As to 'giving' Poles a place to live, give me a break. After their usefulness and novelty wore off (starting from the end of the B of B), many were despised, ridiculed and made to feel as though they had no home.

As to rotting in Romania, Poles flocked to England regardless of GB governement intervention -they were under the mistaken belief that sacrifice for GB would be paid in kind. Dont fantasise that it was the GB that let them out of their pens.

As to giving the Poles the means to fight freely and without interference, what do you mean? Oh, I know - they were used where and when the allies needed them and kicked ass wherever they went but without any iota of gain or benefit flowing back. As to the Frantic airdrops, those individual pilots were heroes, and with solemn respect to their memory, I would hazard to say that they would roll in their graves if their individual courage and selflessness was attributed to any checklist of GB's contributions suggestive of a governmental mindset or policy/doctrine of assistance for Poland.


Now this is plain disrespect to the forum. By inference, you say that every forum poster is not on an intellectual par with you. Now's the opportunity to retract my good man.

As to the second sentence, this is a "polish forum". This means that you will encounter Poles, or persons of Polish extraction (such as me) discussing and argiung all things Polish. Given the fictions, fallacies and fantasies surrounding Polish history, ytou will come across people who will offend your sense of how a historic discussion should proceed. You see, until very recently (and in some cases not yet), the documents/notes/memos surrounding what actually happened to Poland were locked up. In some cases they were destroyed or went missing. A prime example is BIP's archive, which was delivered to the GB govt at the finale of the war and was 'lost'. Poles didnt have the luxury of a long unbroken chain of documented history, untainted by interference and redrafting by other countries and cultures. We're still discovering what really happened. I suggest you read Norman Davies Rising 44 if you havent already.

I wonder why when discussing history Poles seem to focus on being 'hard done by', or what their achivements are. Maybe it's because despite all the achivements the Poles were in fact hard done by relative to other countries. It's particularly galling when a lot of the achievements were made for the beneift of others who did not have the gratitude to repay in kind. In that sense, I think Poland is arguably unique in the world.

I look forward to your retraction and response.

Cheers, Dan

History / WW2: Britain Declares War on Germany to Save Poland [290]


I dont think it's a matter of blaming GB for all our troubles. The lack of action by GB at all as seen in the beginning of WW2 can be seen as symptomatic of their general disposition toward the Poles for much if not all of WW2. The fact is, if GB knew they couldnt mount any assault from the West why did they contract with the Poles at all and form an alliance? I'll let you answer that.

The 'anger' directed toward GB I think moreso comes from the notion that GB had all of the rest of WW2 to do something positive to assist the Poles, but nothing happened. Poles looked to GB for support and got none. The balance sheet of what Poles did for GB as opposed to what GB did for Poles is heavily stacked in Poland's favour. That gives the Poles the standing to question what GB did for them.

I agree - GB really couldnt have done anything more. They really tried and the results speak for themselves.

History / Ancient Polish History thread [180]


I like the Polish uniforms. I have many pictures of my ancestors in uniform. If anyone has an ancestor in uniform, can they please post it so we can all have a look.

Does anyone know of the meaning/significance of the squiggly line on the collar ends of the uniform. I seem to recall it meant something. Thanks - I really look forward to some more pictures.

I'd like to know how I can attach my pictures if someone could tell me please.

Dan

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


Mate, I think its a wind up. Look at her avatar (*glug* glug*).

UK, Ireland / Are polish pupils harming native british childrens education? [280]


No you're not. Prove it champion. I've read some of your posts and I don't believe you would be. Which university do you go to? Throw some "law" at me! Please reply mate - dont be shy.

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


Forgive my inability to speak Polish, but what does this translate to please. I see there's some reference to a grandma??

History / Anyone know 88 Helena Wolinska masterminding execution of Gen Fieldorf? [15]


Conceivably (sorry Greg). Again, she could raise that argument when and if she faces trial.

History / Anyone know 88 Helena Wolinska masterminding execution of Gen Fieldorf? [15]

Hi Jonni

Thanks for your thoughts, but I disagree with your first post. I dont care if the US or UK recognised whatever it was they did. Poland is a sovereign country, and the legitimacty of the law and the branches of govt that flow from it stem from the democratic base that elected the executive arm of govt to put inplace those laws and institutions. There was no popular mandate from the Polish people to give the power to the Polish govt at the time to put in place the laws and "law dispensing" govt branches that led to Nile's murder.

Put simply: Laws and punishments that may effect citizens can ionly be legitimate if the citizen agreed to the giovernment having the power to put those laws in place in the first place. A democratically elected govt, by virtue of being elected, has the mandate to enact laws cosnsistent with the constitution or its policies that got it voted in in the first place.

No democracy = no democratic vote = no binding social contract between govt and people = no leigitiamte govt = no mandate to make laws able to bind the citizen= no legitimate laws.... and so on.

The above model must be stuck to religiously, otherwise we run the risk of history repeating itself and there being more show trials such as Nile's. No offence Jonni, but your view is dangerous. Govts and people must be held accountable for their actions. If nothing else, it may have a deterrent value.

As to Pope JPII, I'm sure he would have, because that was his role. That view has nothing to do though with the law, given the separation of church and state.

Cheers, Dan

History / Anyone know 88 Helena Wolinska masterminding execution of Gen Fieldorf? [15]

Hi Cezarek,


In my view, I dont think that court can be seen as recognised if you mean in the sense of being legitimate or having jurisdiction. By this I mean legitimacy and jurisdicition come from the laws that give effect to those concepts/powers. Laws are created by government. For the law to be valid, accepted and recognised, the governement that created it must also be accepted by way of being democratically elected. Thsi was not the case in Poland at the time. Consequently, the current Polish govt (I suspect), quite correctly has passed laws that act in retrospect to bring alleged criminals to justice for these types of acts.

Age should be no barrier to facing trial. If her lawyers are astute, they can use that issue in mitigation if she is found guilty and sentenced.

History / Anyone know 88 Helena Wolinska masterminding execution of Gen Fieldorf? [15]

RIP Emil Fieldorf aka "Nile". He is a true hero.

I heard the bastards tortured him so badly that he was wheeled to his murder in a bed and hung from there. It's good to know justice caught up with this creature.

It would be interesting to know whether other perpetrators have ben caught for these times of crimes......

Thread attached on merging:
Brought to justice?

Hi all,

The thread on Gen Fieldorf's alleged executioner compels me to ask does anyone know any other alleged or tried perpetrator who has faced justice, leaving aside the more obvious ones.

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]

Hi Larry - thanks for your response

You rightly point out slavery, but omit the ultimate fate which was simply death. A nation of slaves cannot be rationally seen as a nation in the political/social sense. My argument is not for sympathy- it is simply for evenhandedness and temperance before judgment is cast, which I'll comment on in response to your view on context.

When you say the 'willing executioners' I take it you mean in the main the Nazis, and to a lesser extent any Pole or fellow Jew who participated. I ask that because the ambience of the post seems to suggest you refer to the Poles, but surely I must be wrong. I included fellow Jews not out of spite but just to put the fact across that it is inescapable that there were some Jews who regretably caused the deaths of other Jews through pointing them out to the Nazis. I would put this down to the context of the circumstances they faced so I wont judge their actions.


It seems you misunderstood me. I dont think I can explain it any clearer than what I did. There is no implication of any body deserving their fate in the holocaust. To be blunt, the clear implication is that Poles sometimes get fed up with modern day apologists who use gentile and 21st century morality to criticise and inflame Poles as a collective group of people for the actions of a MINORITY during WW2. Some react by saying bugger it, if I'm going to be blamed for it no matter how much I try and defend myself, I'll just slag off the Jews anyway. Others ignore it (to their credit). Others are clearly Anti semitic per se and their reactions need no comment. Myself, I react with thought and words.


Actually, I would submit individualism in the sense you describe was probably first conceptualised by the body politic (the szlachta) of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwelath in the C16 - C18. Students of history will no doubt know what those concepts led to for the Commonwealth. I'll admit that my thinking is sometimes tinged by the atavisms you point out - I distill that branch of thought down to my pride in my Polish blood. Hey, I even throw on my Polish eagle t shirt and observe a minute's silence on the anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising. With respect Larry, I think that if you do some sole searching yourself you'll find your admirable championing of your heritage to be tinged with simialr atavistic compulsions.


I hold out an olive branch in the hope that we can come to some concensus so that we may both honour the memory of "native" Pole and Pole of "Jewish descent/faith/extraction" as one and the same and you lose the meaning.

If you have indeed posted your last, thats regretable. I enjoyed discussing this matter with you and hope I have given you some food for thought. Kind regards to you and yours, Dan

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]

Thanks for your response Larry,


Perhaps "bad" is a bit harsh - I'll replace that with "negative". I gave my reason why in the sentence that followed. The upshot really is that in my opinion we can't judge the behaviours of those that did what they had to do to survive some 60 years ago. To borrow from Norman Davies, it would be unjust to transpose modern sensibilities and mores when making judgments on behaviours that occurred at a time when death, degradation and terror were the order of the day and clearly motivated the behaviours at the time.

As to metaphysics, I dont think the issue of Anti Semitism ergo Anti Polonism being a bad thing is metaphysical. What I submit as being metaphysical is the contention that Poland and Polish people are Anti Semites. Regretably, I think you have (inadvertantly I hope) fallen into it again:


Sadly, what seems to be missing from the discussion is this (and this is the way I choose to honour the memory of those who fell in Poland in WW2): 6 million Polish were killed, not 3 million Polish Jews and 3 million "ethnic" Poles.

Quibbling about the ethnicity/religion of those who perished does no honour to the dead. If there existed tension and dissension in their lifetimes, surely we can attempt to be inclusive now. My apologies to any I may offend who feel that the separateness should be perpetuated even in death.

Sorry mate, but I really had to respond to this,


.... Still, the fact remains ( and this forum proves it) that anti-Semitism is a national disease in Poland... (quote).

Let me start by saying my respects and admiration to your father for surviving. I'd like to know the context in which the rabid anti semitism took place. Now, I'm not saying this is your father's situation but in my life I've learnt a lot about the importance of giving the context when saying something terrible happened or is happening. For example (true story):

My dad, about 15 years ago, swore at an elderly German man, who was the father of the wife of a family friend, and ejected him from his premises - sounds bad hey. How could he have done that?

Let's look at the context - turns out the elderly German gentleman was a sergeant in the SS. Turns out he was a participant in the Warsaw uprising in 1944, which was where my granfather perished as a combatant, and where my father rotted with his mum for several months. Turns out he was drunk and in conversation with my father started boasting about the expolits of the SS in Warsaw during that period.

Context is everything. What my father did to the elderly German gentleman was technically wrong and abhorrent, but in relaising and accounting for the circumstances in which that behavior was precipitated, we can take the first steps toward an understanding that there are shades of grey and allegations dont necessarily coalesce with truth. With respect Larry, sweeping assertions, particularly negative ones about a country as a whole, do little to prove an argument and in fact diminish the credibility of any argument from the same author that came before or are still to come. Regards Dan

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]

Gday Larry,

Ive read your posts with some interest and lately some alarm. As to your challenge thrown down to agree that prejudices against the Jews are stereotypical, I do agree. I have many WW2 stories from my Polish dad re his experiences with the Jews, and none were told with more warmth than the day he witnessed a Jewish doctor being flanked by a ring of protective Wehrmacht soldiers (one of whom the Dr saved) when the SS came for the good Dr one day in Warsaw; or of sadness when he told me of his friend, a young Jewish boy, whose black hair turned grey after he was lined up against a wall for mock execution. My father is not Jewish. He also had some bad things to say which I won't repeat. Potentially inflammatory words mean little when the person who says them does so in the faceless comfort of a chair behind a computer screen.

As to your suggestion that the forum participants, or 99% of them, are in essence bigoted morons, or the lunatic fringe, I really must object. Saying things like that aint going to endear you to those who read it.

You see the problem you now face is that you have engaged in a metaphysical debate. There is no correct answer and no one will come to any concensus. Inflammatory words help nothing, nor do insinuations about the intellect of the forum participants, nor do purported diagnoses of psychiatric illnesses. Indeed, is it really ethical of you to hold yourself out as a mental health professional and engage in this conduct - I think not.

On a lighter note, was it really wise to put Corey Haim in with those other credible actors? ;-)

Regards, Dan