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Posts by Bratwurst Boy  

Joined: 2 Apr 2007 / Male ♂
Warnings: 1 - Q		 Last Post: 27 Nov 2024
Threads: Total: 8 / In This Archive: 2
Posts: Total: 11834 / In This Archive: 3273 		From: Berlin, Germany
Speaks Polish?: No
Interests: his helmet

Displayed posts: 3275 / page 63 of 110
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Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

He knows what he is talking about.

And what would that be? :)

Most of our Luftwaffe was busy in the East.
If Hitler had handled GB as he did with France and Poland they wouldn't had known what hit them.
Nobody in the High Command understood Hitler, he started to
become irrational at this point already...
Only the distraction of the epic battle with Russia and later the americans saved them....please try to deny that!

Dawid had it right though, most of our best and most successful never once met with the RAF, because they were busy elsewhere...
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

To suggest that Hitler played with kiddy-gloves is demeaning to the sacrifices of all the British, Polish, and yes German pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain.

But it's the truth!
Hitler somehow had a soft spot for the Brits...he wasn't happy as they declared war on him.
And the battle in Russia saved your arse...a bit more gratefulness to comrade Stalin please!

Shall we also talk of Hitler's not trying to win against the British in North Africa, Italy, and France?

Hmmm....I thought Italy was an ally (albeit a horrible one) and the battle for France...well....Blitzkrieg as his finest.

Overall, Germany committed nearly 90% of Luftwaffe for Battle of Britain. In other words, Hitler threw everything he had at Churchill. Unfortunately for him, it did not work. But it was not for lack of trying.

How can that be when most of our aces never met with the RAF!
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

In the big picture, Iran came out as the winner after the fall of Saddam

Wasn't Saddam their arch enemy? They surely are grateful to the US for removing him now....

I think we can expect a major event b4 2 long, one involving Israel.

I think the pendulum is about to swing big too...but I still hope in the right direction (starting a real peace process in the ME)
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / Should we use original name of Berlin - "Kopanica" [103]

What do you care!
Don't pretend to give a sh*t....or do you want to kicked out of the board again?

Shouldn't you be playing with Crowie and your "great slavia" toys?
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Top Five German Aces of WWII.[/b]

Yes, that what I meant!

The best were busy in the East from 1941 onwards.
But then it was GB which declared war on Germany...
But Hitler never cranked up the pressure on GB more than he had to! He shifted everything to the East instead.
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Not even for their own.

Especially not their own I would say...who keeps count about how many of their own civilians, women and children they murdered in the last years during their "jihad" against the "evil" West...
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Russians did not provide any relief to the British

Oh please...

Hitler never wanted a war with GB so every actions had been really half hearted...just imagine the mass of the german forces now in Russia concentrated on this little island....even as they chased you off the continent at Dunkirk they let most of you go just like that.

The RAF never met with most of the best aces because they worked their asses off in the East!
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Since when has America been chosen to be the worlds policeman.?

Interesting question...I once read about the believe of "american exceptionalism" if I got it right.
Which is about exactly that...to be a "light unto nations" kind of...a natural leadership...

Is this true? Is this really taught?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

LOL ! I love german superiority complex.

Luftwaffe aces were the best, but please, no jealousy! :):):)

Especially when I see 5 ugly morons in old Skoda driving 2h to our Tesco to buy cheaper food.

At least they drive their own, not a stolen one ...
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

So what you are saying is that Germany's aggression on Poland in 1939 was just a pre-emptive strike?

Nope, that was naked vengeance for most Germans!

But Barbarossa, the attack on the SU in 1941 that was for most a pre-emptive strike...even some russian historians agree with that.
But it's still hotly discussed and most relevant documents are still top secret in Moskow....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icebreaker_(Suvorov

Icebreaker: Who Started the Second World War?, by Viktor Suvorov (Russian title: Ledokol, Ледокол) is a documentary book, which alleges that World War II started as a result of Joseph Stalin's ploy to "liberate" the working class of Europe and eventually the whole world.

Suvorov's thesis

Suvorov claims that Stalin successfully manipulated Hitler into removing the "buffer zone" (Poland) between Europe and the USSR. Suvorov further argues that Stalin's goal was the export of communism to other countries. Once Hitler 'broke the ice', Soviet victory in the large-scale war that followed would enable the USSR to impose Stalinist regimes on most of Europe. In this theory, Nazi military aggression would ironically form the icebreaker for a communist invasion.

Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Germany declared war on US, not other way around.

Well, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around!
Some could think without these declarations there wouldn't had be a world war...but they had to fullfull their treaty to protect Poland right?

Against the Germans that is...the Russians who marched just in from the other side were cool allies instead (not to mention that Poland after the war was not exactly free anyhow)...but then...who cares...right?

Regardless, if a country wishes to honor its soldiers and fallen, they should be allowed to do so

Agreed!
And no one should have the right to generalize them all as criminals!
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Ja gut...Europe and the US.
But go to Asia, Africa, South America....
For the Chinese the Japanese are much more important for example.
And remember the Adolf-Hitler-Suite in a Hotel somewhere in India lately?
Most don't care about this war...and in Japan, the Nazis are part of the pop culture...
...people still love the uniforms...and so on

Stalin killed more people than Hitler managed, he spun a net of Gulags over all of his conquered colonies...but WWII saved the world??? Coooome ooooon...
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

PS: There is nothing wrong with acknowledging bravery and skill in the enemy Darius...

PPS: You know..even the Russians exonerated Hartmann of all crimes officially in 1997, admitting that court and sentence after the war were faked. No atrocities, no war crimes, no killed civilians for the ace of the aces, just a great pilot and a fine, human being!
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

The individual soldiers was not necessarily a criminal

Well...it took awhile...:)

What's ridiculous is that you continue taking pride in the death Luftwaffe inflicted on the innocent.

You really seem to think that the foremost goal of the german forces was to kill innocent civilians?
But then tell me how a relatively small country without much natural resources or natural boundaries could hold out a two front war for so long on several continents?

You can't do that if you concentrate on unimportant civilians...you have to fight the enemy forces to come forward or to defend!
Try to be logical here...killing civilians with purpose was a waste of rare and valuable resources.

A german fighter ace was mostly alone against several of enemy aircrafts, this ratio
worsened as the war dragged on.
WHEN AND WHY should they have concentrated on killing civilians...it would have been absolutely contrary to the war aim.

To kill civilians to somehow influence the war progress...well ask Churchill, it was his idea!

And again...how could an ace as Hartmann crank up his number till to 352 if he was busy killing civilians?
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

You know...someone who states "The Luftwaffe sucks" CAN'T have any knowledge.
That is just ridiculous....sorry...:)

And even if the purpose was wrong (what it was) that doesn't make the soldier automatically a criminal.
Was every american Vietnam soldier a criminal? Is every allied Iraq war soldier a criminal just for fighting in it?
What about the british empire soldiers conquering half of the world...all war criminals???
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

I didn't know about that.

You don't know alot of things...leave it at that!
Just because your enemy is strong and skilled and successfull doesn't mean he is a criminal...

But if you have 6 years to learn something, and someone else has 1 year, and the latter learns 1/6th of what the former knows then who is a faster learner?

Well...Poland had enough time to learn...they had their big mouth always wide open!

quote:

"Germany can't avoid war even if she wanted to"

Mistreating the german minority, threatening Danzig and denying any compromise
for a corridor always counting on the English and the French to bail them out if pushes came to show wasn't the best diplomacy advisable...

Another quote from that time:

In one week in Berlin!

They should have been ready....
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Polish fighters where known to shot down helpless german pilots hanging in their parachutes...not very chivalrous if you ask me! :(

I am interested in the ratio of pilots to aces.

You just want to downtalk and foul mouth the Luftwaffe...be my guest.
The experts know better! :)
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

I am not asking how many pilots were aces, but how many pilots Germans had in WW2?

I don't know the number but it weren't so many as the allies had...and as the end neared they got even less...but those who still could flew and flew and flew till they got shot down. No break for them!

Hmmm....reading this list I wonder about the polish aces...

The first is

Erich "Bubi" Hartmann Germany Luftwaffe 352
(Of course only done in the short breaks between shooting civilians)
and
the last one

Michael R. Yunck USA U.S. Marine Corps 5

What about the best polish ace?
Oh I found him:

Stanisław Skalski Poland Polish Air Force/RAF 18 11/12

Nice :)
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Skillfully?
How much skill does a pilot need to engage a machine gun while flying over frightened civilians on a country road?

Because they are Germans that's what they did all the time yes?
Makes one wonder how the german aces shot down so many enemy air crafts....
They shouldn't have had time for that!

I responded to an ideologized generalization about Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht by offering another angle.

The list about the WWII flying aces is neutral and objective, nothing idealized about it! :)
The best pilots of all! :)
The same holds true for the Wehrmacht...some darn good soldiers!
Bratwurst Boy   
9 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Anyway, I am talking about their moral side, or rather the deficiency of morals, not about skill

What moral side?
If they did their job well and skillfully why do they still suck in your opinion?

Again, biographies are about small groups of people, and often through the prism of their eyes.

Of course they are...but they are the best pair of eyes into the past you can get.
Better than any ideologized generalization...and you can read many different from all sides.
Gives a better rounded view than just:
Allies = good
Germans = bad

SS soldiers helping russian prisoners...
(Believe it, it's true)



of how many pilots in total?

Click the link :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_World_War_II_aces
Bratwurst Boy   
8 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

What I meant was, if you attack someone and get beat up then you have only yourself to blame for your wounds.

The topic was "Did the allies commit mass murder!"

The Brits responded to attacks by Germans. German bombing of civilian targets in UK. In WW2 British soldiers were not given the directive to kill without mercy every man, woman and child of Polish extraction.

??? Lemme see if I get this right...the british bomber command was justified in murdering german civilians day and night because of the german war crimes in Poland???

Well, then maybe Hitler was right punishing Poles for the British war crimes in Dresden and Hamburg...

Boy are you crazy!

So Wehrmacht consisted of Toland? Who else?

You have no idea what you are speaking of, right? Toliver (not Toland my error, that was someone else) was a british pilot during the war, Hartmann a german...not your average german pilot mind you but the best ever!

The Blond Knight of Germany: A Biography of Erich Hartmann
search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Blond-Knight-of-Germany/Raymond-F-Toliver/e/9780830681891

Absolutely recommendable...could be an eye opener for you!

There were decent Luftwaffe pilots. Loftwaffe still sucke

No idea! :)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_World_War_II_aces

Places 1 till 98, all german aces!
You don't get that successfull with preying on civilians...
Bratwurst Boy   
8 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Well...the Brits had the Bomber command...what a nasty people they all were!
Right?

And yes, you imply that a german soldier can only be a cruel brute...
You know, that is quite out dated war propaganda!

Care to elaborate?

Your answer to the thread topic was kind of: "Who cares if the Allies did it, the Germans did it first..."
Some people do care not to be seen in the same league you know?

I already said it would be hard to count them, didn't I

Well, the Wiesenthal center DID count them...
They had 60 years time for that, they should know!

I am not implying anything. I am simply showing I have a hard time with agreeing that Luftwaffe had a good reputation.

They HAD a very good reputation! Read biographies...it might open your eyes.
Toland for example wrote even the biography for his friend Bubi Hartmann!

Yes, it does. That's why I agree that not all Wehrmacht soldiers were criminals.

A tiny minority were/became criminals, the far majority were just damn good soldiers!
Period!
Bratwurst Boy   
8 Nov 2008
History / German POWs after WW2 - did the allies commit mass murder? [228]

Actually, Luftwaffe had a terrible reputation even before WW2. Ever heard about Guernica? And that was just practice for them.

Some links for that?
Sorry, that is just plain wrong.

Many of them even became friends during and after the war...for example german Flieger General Adolf Galland and Douglas Bader.
(And yes, Galland even took part in Guernica!)
There are lot's of examples like these....you should at least read some biographies before you state such things!

What you imply actually is that because someone fighted for the Germans he couldn't have been chivalrous and honorable and an all around nice chap!

Think again!

Still full of war time propaganda....

This is a funny question when you consider who started the war and what their goal was. As someone has suggested here before, if you attack someone and you end up with a broken nose, don't complain. You shouldn't have attacked in the first place.

That is funny from someone who probably thinks allied aircraft never attacked german refugee columns just for the sake of it...

And the "you did it first"-argument is even funnier if it comes from the "we were the good guys"-crowd. Where is the difference then...

I don't think it is possible to find out what percentage of Germans during WW2 were war criminals, but I find it hard to believe that it was just 1% or less.

Well...count them!

Having said that, gramma told me a story of a German formation that stayed briefly on her farm. One of the krauts was really nasty so gramma went to a German officer and complained. The officer came over to the farm. Beat the living sshit out of the culprit (broken nose and such) and that was the end of the story.

Soldiers were executed by their superiors for stealing eggs from a farm...I know it from a witness.
So...doesn't make you think?