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Candidate of "Hope and Change," Breaks Promise, Leaves Poland Defenseless


Krazy Kaju 2 | 35  
8 Nov 2008 /  #1
Obama denies Poland missile vow

US President-elect Barack Obama has not given a commitment to go ahead with plans to build part of a US missile defence system in Poland, an aide says.

He was speaking after Polish President Lech Kaczynski's office said a pledge had been made during a phone conversation between the two men.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7717669.stm

So it looks like the President-Elect is a package deal of a worse economy AND a worse foreign policy. Great.
shopgirl 6 | 928  
8 Nov 2008 /  #2
"His position is as it was throughout the campaign, that he supports deploying a missile defence system when the technology is proved to be workable," Mr McDonough told the Associated Press.

In the past, Mr Obama has said he wants to review the plans for a missile defence system in central Europe to ensure it would be effective and not target Russia.

That's not what it sounds like to me.....
OP Krazy Kaju 2 | 35  
8 Nov 2008 /  #3
The technology has been proved workable over a decade ago.
wildrover 98 | 4,451  
8 Nov 2008 /  #4
Candidate of "Hope and Change," Breaks Promise, Leaves Poland Defenseless

Oh...i thought these missiles were to protect the USA...not Poland....
OP Krazy Kaju 2 | 35  
8 Nov 2008 /  #5
edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/20/poland.us.missile/index.html - You Thought Wrong

"It will help both the [NATO] alliance and Poland and the United States respond to the coming threats," Rice said. "Missile defense, of course, is aimed at no one. It is in our defense that we do this."
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527  
8 Nov 2008 /  #6
He was speaking after Polish President Lech Kaczynski's office said a pledge had been made during a phone conversation between the two men

One of them is lying!
And I don't think it's Obama...

The technology has been proved workable over a decade ago.

Where? When??? Any iranian missile catched lately?

It will help both the [NATO] alliance and Poland and the United States respond to the coming threats

Well..she tells crap...she is with the old losers and liars Bush's team!
Wahldo  
8 Nov 2008 /  #7
Well, anyway it's probably a big expensive mess averted if the deal doesn't go through. Honestly, do you really want the U.S. dicking around on your soil?? If was I Poland, I wouldn't. Look how Iraq was managed.
Babinich 1 | 455  
8 Nov 2008 /  #8
Poland would not be defenseless; the EU has their back right?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,527  
8 Nov 2008 /  #9
Right, even if it would be more a case for the NATO right now....
Babinich 1 | 455  
8 Nov 2008 /  #10
Why the redundancy? Disband NATO and let the EU tend to its own.
z_darius 14 | 3,968  
8 Nov 2008 /  #11
God save Poland from European military aid. Or, apparently, American, for that matter.
plk123 8 | 4,150  
8 Nov 2008 /  #12
krazu kraju, you're jumping to conclusions. we'll see man.
Babinich 1 | 455  
9 Nov 2008 /  #13
z_darius

I do not want to leave Poland in any type of that threatens her sovereignty. If I were President I'd do all I could to forge a binding alliance with Poland. I must admit I am biased toward. Poland :')

NATO's shelf life has expired; the EU is now in place.

If the EU cannot guarantee the security for its member states then the existence of the EU should be questioned.

This is why I believe that Poland should actively seek alliances with other nations on the continent. Serbia, Hungary, Sweden, etc...
Crow 138 | 8,391  
9 Nov 2008 /  #14
Russia and Poland should be partners, not the enemies.

NATO is criminal organization and relict of past. Poland should be realistic and take neutral stance on current military alliances
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #15
A greater degree of neutrality, whilst potentially undermining its security, would be in the interests of Poland. I mean, what has Poland really gained from its pursuits in The War on Terror, combat experience?

Poland has been lured into the middle position, sandwiched firmly between Russia and America. I feel that Poland should not act with alacrity in entering into new agreements and tie its hands. The Polish govt is said to be abandoning conscription next year. This will divert much of the focus off of military duty and hopefully prompt a rethink into military spending and involvement.

Crow, I agree. I think Poland has made itself a target unnecessarily. Worse still, it has bought the rhetoric of the fear culture. Just like there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq b4, the situation turned full circle and we are now in a nasty predicament. The same can take place with an escalation of the Polish presence abroad.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163  
9 Nov 2008 /  #16
Poland would not be defenseless; the EU has their back right?

lol...
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699  
9 Nov 2008 /  #17
So it looks like the President-Elect is a package deal of a worse economy AND a worse foreign policy. Great.

just looks like a stupid attack at our new president who isnt even able to do anything at this time, and many citizens in poland werent all for the missle base anyway, it was talked about for a long time and even while they did talk about it, they had decided against it during talks with bush.. I think it would cause more problems and so do alot of other people. the promise was made between bush and kaczynski not obama, hes just getting thrown into the mess, bush shouldnt have even started the process knowing hes not going to be in office much longer.

and I think the economy is more important across the globe Vs a military base in another country that is going to cause russia to be on edge.. the intentions right now are to get all of us back on track, thats what should be the focus..
Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535  
9 Nov 2008 /  #19
russia to be on edge

Russians are suddenly very active these days...

Oh well... whatever will happen!...

I hope everything will be positive. Right now I remain very positive about USA :) ... so lets see what happens next.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #20
Obama talked about reversing the damage done in the Presidential Debate of 26/9. Well said Patrycja.

We are staring right in the face of an impending global crisis, greater than just a financial one. Relations will need to be repaired but the task may be too onerous. Obama has many solid visions but antagonising Pakistan, while pragmatic in a policy-based sense, may prove to be volatile. America laid bare this possibility but chose to befriend Musharraf. I know sb from Pakistan and he believes that many Pakistanis are growing tired and will retaliate to any incursions it feels to be unwarranted. Expect fireworks!!
Crow 138 | 8,391  
9 Nov 2008 /  #21
greater degree of neutrality, whilst potentially undermining its security, would be in the interests of Poland.

let me add few on this

There is also Visegrad group. Why this can`t be enough for Poland? This is all what Poland need, just key principles of Visegrad group`s political/military doctrine should be moved in dirrection of neutrality.

Yes, complete Visegrad group should be neutral on NATO and Russia and in the same time should open itself for other Northern/Central/Eastern European states.... and, again we coming to exuilibrium and point of balance which promissing prosperity, security and independance in new/old political realm of Sarmatia Europae.

Neutrality should be key element of Polish foreign policy, while in the same time Poland should seek to restore her traditional zone of influence. Believe it or not, its exactly what Russia need and what would so called west have to accept.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #22
U have some nice ideas Crow. What do u make of the NATO notion that they all rally around to support one another in the event of an attack from an outsider?
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #23
Excuse me, but may I ask what planet you people are from?

NATO is extremely relevant today. It is the core piece of translatlantic security that has guaranteed peace for the past 60 years. It is in all our best interests to have a strong Europe and a strong America. Under Article V, NATO membership guarantees that if one member is attacked, other members will come to its aid. Moreover, the Missile Defense Agreement guarantees US support to Poland even beyond its NATO obligations.

Poland's foreign policy objectives throughout much of the 1990s was single-minded in focus: NATO membership. When Poland obtained this in 1999, its next foreign policy objective became EU membership, which it obtained in 2004. NATO membership was an important and necessary step toward EU membership. They are complementary organizations.

The EU started as, and remains primarily, an economic community. Recent debate among the EU with a "constitution" or later called Lisbon accords has strongly indicated that not all EU members are in favor of making the EU into political or military entity, despite support from its largest members. Thus it remains mainly an economic community. The EU has only a small peacekeeping force, and no real security guarantees that other members have to come to one member's defense if it is attacked. Even when Russia illegally banned imports of Polish meats, the EU did not show solidarity to Poland. If Poland was attacked, the EU would probably debate over it for months in Brussels.

Russia has projected its power into Poland by force since the time of Ivan the Terrible, and is not stopping now. The Russians understand only force. The government in Moscow is back into a policy of territory building, and they look for any convenient pretext to act. It is too bad that Missile Defense has been that pretext, but if not that, it would have surely been something else. They find difference between allies, drive a wedge into the hole, and pound as hard as they can with a sledgehammer.

The Missile Defense Base would only place a couple hundred Americans in Poland. And they do not come as occupiers, but rather as partners. The Americans will not build a citadel in the middle of Warsaw to control the Poles (as Russians did). Not to mention, US bases have been good for local economies, and have helped build trusting relationships. When Philippines forced US to leave, it caused an economic collapse, and they now wish they hadn't done so.

The new US Administration has a choice whether to continue. I think Poland should show its support and send a message to Obama that such a base would be welcome. US and Poland have many similar shared ideals on freedom and democracy that are not compatible with Russian way of thinking. Please do not fall victim to Russian bullying and propaganda.
Crow 138 | 8,391  
9 Nov 2008 /  #24
What do u make of the NATO notion that they all rally around to support one another in the event of an attack from an outsider?

did you sow few episodes of Star Trek, Seanus?

it would help me to illustrate Polish situation to you...

Imagine that star alliance arround Earth becoming target for some power. Then, imagine that Earth sending call for help to Borg entity? Do you follow me man? What would left human in Earthlings after alliance with Borg?

you want independant Poland? you want Poland? spot this:

Along with regular reports from his representatives - Czaykowski in Constantinople, and Zwierkowski in Belgrade - Czartoryski got additional information about the Serbs from Polish poet Adam Mickiewicz who, in 1841, as a professor of Slavic literature at the College de France, gave a series of lectures on Serbia and Serbian folk poetry.

In his book on Serbia published in 1843, presently only partly preserved, Urquhart stressed that Serbia's role in the future might be similar to the one it had in the past: "Serbia was a great and powerful kingdom when the Muscovy was composed of distracted provinces, and while Poland was yet an unuttered name ... [she] is the centre within that great family of Slav resistance to Muscovite despotism and presents to Europe its chief security against Russian ambition." As such, the Serbs are "a factor of the greatest importance... [They] are the most important Slav nation after the Poles, and now, the struggle that used to sprinkle Polish plains until recently with blood has moved to its mountains...

Source:
Ilija Garasanin's "Nacertanije"
Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences

Don`t waste your energy on Obama, Poles. He isn`t your man. i could tell you very same even if McCain won on those ellections. Focus yourself on your world Poles, on your people. Let foreigners care of yourself, grab historic opportunity, prevail... and, when trade, don`t forget Poles... trade, buying and seeling are still emotional processes... in other words... to have sustain answer on situation, you must have emotional goal.

just follow megatrends and you would see what coming behind horizon
Filios1 8 | 1,336  
9 Nov 2008 /  #25
Very, very well said. I have only contempt for our govermnent's political stance at the moment. If Obama indeed does not want to go through with the missile shield, then Poland will lose that, AND potentially destroy any chance of a Polish-Russian alliance in the near future. Why does it seem that they always have to meddle and get their noses dirty in things that do not directly concern them? They are overstretching themselves on the Middle Eastern scene, and the troops need to be returned home. 17 billion dollars of trade with Russia this year... there is no reason why this can't be doubled in the next few years.

With Russia, Poland can improve its economy, and command a better position in Europe, and at the same time, the United States will not lose respect for a whorish Poland.

God knows who will shift Polands current state. Certainly not Tusk or any of his cabinet.
Dawid  
9 Nov 2008 /  #26
you want independant Poland? you want Poland?

Poland is currently independent and strong. Right now is best time for Poland in over 400 years. And the US has provided its support to help Poland get here.

In 1919, after Great War, President Wilson's 13th point urged the restoration of Poland as a free and independent nation 125 years after it was erased from the maps of Europe. It reads:

"An independent Polish state should be erected which should include the territories inhabited by indisputably Polish populations, which should be assured a free and secure access to the sea, and whose political and economic independence and territorial integrity should be guaranteed by international covenant."

Do I even need to mention what powers had partioned Poland because it was in their best interests to do so? (hint: Russia is in there)

America was first country to diplomatically recognize Poland (Serbia incidentally was number 72, even after USSR which was 65). Through cold war, America supported Polish freedom and independence. When the wall came down, America was the first country to significantly invest in Poland, to help turn Polish economy around. Other countries followed.

Serbia has historically been very close with Russia, not Poland. Great War started because Russia mobilized in defense of Serbia. Today Russians continue to support conservative Serbian nationalists, who become increasingly indebted politically to Moscow. Other half of Serbians wish to join Europe, and go way of Poland.

Poland already is independent and free. This is because of a strong Poland and good decisions to make NATO and EU membership primary piece of foreign policy. Serbia must get rid of ultra-nationalist politicians who are indebted to Russians in order to restore its independence, and work to meet conditions for NATO and EU membership.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
9 Nov 2008 /  #27
I know Star Trek:TNG VERY well Crow. I c what u r saying. The Borg cannot be reasoned with and feel that resistance is futile. I, like Filios, believe in what u wrote above
Wahldo  
9 Nov 2008 /  #28
Russia and Poland should be partners, not the enemies.

Definitely, at least test the waters, doesn't mean you have to be Russia's lackey. The EU obviously like them.
Crow 138 | 8,391  
9 Nov 2008 /  #29
The EU obviously like them.

no, EU could drink them in a glass of water, at first opportunity. EU hates them. EU hates them as last great Slavic power because this way or another it is what they are... that`s the bottom line

Definitely, at least test the waters, doesn't mean you have to be Russia's lackey.

of course not Russia's lackey but Russian partners. It consider mutual respect and accepting that there are two ancient realities in Slavic world and that are- Sarmatia Europae and Sarmatia Asiatica.

so, speaking openly... Russia is that what was Sarmatia Asiatica... Russia can`t lose if support restoration of Sarmatia Europae. Balance must be restored, balance in Slavic world, balance for Europe and the world.

Come Poles, come and help to your Racowie so that Dragon can be somunoned once again, so that we can restore our power,... power of Sarmatia,... land of green, land of free, where we belong, where we had been!

Freedom! Long live resistance!
Babinich 1 | 455  
9 Nov 2008 /  #30
Even when Russia illegally banned imports of Polish meats, the EU did not show solidarity to Poland. If Poland was attacked, the EU would probably debate over it for months in Brussels.

Ok, if the EU cannot protect "one of its own" through diplomatic or militaristic channels I'd ask what the advantage is in joining.

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