Ironside
4 Oct 2009
Genealogy / Polish Army Arrests 1939-1941 Bialorus/Family Members Taken to Siberia [7]
Area baranowicka or in the area of Baranowicze.
Baronowicka.
Area baranowicka or in the area of Baranowicze.
Ironside
3 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
I think that approval of others is no needed or seek after ....
I think that approval of others is no needed or seek after ....
Ironside
1 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
If .....?:D maybe ....but he lost.
Neither! I'm Stalin himself .....see even the name is the same :D
He was politician as well, do you care to look for more what he said on different occasions?
Its means exactly nothing!
Duchy in 1807 in 1809 we win with Austria and took some land back.
We made a deal and we paid dire price for it but he fail to deliver, so yes it fair to say that he did nothing for Poland.
You are like a dog grateful for any scrap of attention.:P
2/3 ? look again 1772?
what do you mean?
cryptic:D
If he won against Russia and he was close we'd have our country back in time.
If .....?:D maybe ....but he lost.
What are you some covert Russian communist or was your father in UB propaganda office?
Neither! I'm Stalin himself .....see even the name is the same :D
So you're saying that a guy who said "give me 100k Poles and i'll conquer the world" or "a 100 Poles are worth a 1
He was politician as well, do you care to look for more what he said on different occasions?
Its means exactly nothing!
You call that a pitifull spread of land?
Duchy in 1807 in 1809 we win with Austria and took some land back.
He gave us back some of our home when we had none, he gave us freedom and dignity back and asked to fight our opressors for him, yes he did it for himself but saying he did nothing when he did so much is absolute rubbish and a blatant lie.
We made a deal and we paid dire price for it but he fail to deliver, so yes it fair to say that he did nothing for Poland.
You are like a dog grateful for any scrap of attention.:P
Thats almost 2/3rd of pre-partition Poland!
2/3 ? look again 1772?
Some would say nice, some wouldn't
what do you mean?
cryptic:D
Ironside
1 Oct 2009
Life / Poland's westernization [44]
as a concept, and we can discuss about practice application in various country's.
In Britain, conscription was widely used in many European country's well before WWII, even before WWI.
As for conscription in Poland during communism it was seen as yet another prosecution of Poles, and that sentiment towards conscription survived into the present.
Before the WWII in Poland it had been seen as a duty and must for every Pole - nobody were avoiding it!
hahahaha that crack me :P
as a concept, and we can discuss about practice application in various country's.
Conscription was a WWII idea
In Britain, conscription was widely used in many European country's well before WWII, even before WWI.
As for conscription in Poland during communism it was seen as yet another prosecution of Poles, and that sentiment towards conscription survived into the present.
Before the WWII in Poland it had been seen as a duty and must for every Pole - nobody were avoiding it!
Ironside
1 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
He created Duchy - exactly!
He destroyed Prussia and Austria and then he created Duchy - look at the map(12 years after partition).
If he had created Duchy out of all territories taken by Prussia and Austria we could said that he did something for Poland. As it was he give to Poles under French supervision pitiful spread of land and expected soldiers and money(which he got it).
By the way he was using freely Polish soldiers to safe French as in Santo Domingo for example.
Poles who were dealing with him wasn't at all blinded by him, your view is echo of Romanticism and later generation of Poles which were viewing Napoleon as an idol.
So was he:D
No I would prefer o rule the Germans and that selfish bastard didn't give us opportunity because of prejudice and misjudged calculations.
Russian are not backward - Russians are Russians!
Nope, he did not create the Duchy of Warsaw, he did not allow Poles to live in a free country, he did not restore Polish liberties and freedom.
He created Duchy - exactly!
He destroyed Prussia and Austria and then he created Duchy - look at the map(12 years after partition).
If he had created Duchy out of all territories taken by Prussia and Austria we could said that he did something for Poland. As it was he give to Poles under French supervision pitiful spread of land and expected soldiers and money(which he got it).
By the way he was using freely Polish soldiers to safe French as in Santo Domingo for example.
Poles who were dealing with him wasn't at all blinded by him, your view is echo of Romanticism and later generation of Poles which were viewing Napoleon as an idol.
USA is prejudiced and abusive against Polish citizens
So was he:D
Would you prefer to be ruled by Germans who wanted to wipe out our culture?
No I would prefer o rule the Germans and that selfish bastard didn't give us opportunity because of prejudice and misjudged calculations.
Russians who back then were almost as backwards as nowdays
Russian are not backward - Russians are Russians!
Ironside
1 Oct 2009
Life / Poland's westernization [44]
Before opening borders, country should had been set in order and prepared.
To sell out our banking system and best industry is not what I call good deal.
He was communist party member and Fulbright stipendiary at the same time - ominous connections?:P
Poland is reciving 1/3 of the subsidies given to Spain or Ireland, so you boys can stuff it !
As Poland is big marked for you western ******* :P
Same concepion of right and wrong
- beauty
- family and country
-Justice
-freedom
etc.
what differs are details, in fact Europe is that fancy about regional differences and customs due to our tribal and feudal past - its good thingy though.
People from Asia or Africa don't see much differences between Poland and western country's (except that Poland is poorer - I think).
Although in western country's there are some changes in perception of right and wrong.
Maybe in the future Poland will be depositary of the "western" values when center will rotten with so called "advancement":P
Another thing I liked about his reforms was that he opened Poland's borders to imports. 1989 was a monumental year and he had to follow through and act in kind. I think he did remarkably well but was earmarked for harsh treatment and ousted. He was a scapegoat for doing what others may not have dared to do. A black time in Polish politics when that happens.
Before opening borders, country should had been set in order and prepared.
To sell out our banking system and best industry is not what I call good deal.
He was communist party member and Fulbright stipendiary at the same time - ominous connections?:P
yeah evil westerner, but who hell helps central-eastern europe with huge subsidies? yeah the evil west.
Poland is reciving 1/3 of the subsidies given to Spain or Ireland, so you boys can stuff it !
As Poland is big marked for you western ******* :P
I dunno, is it? Asides from the EU, I mean
Same concepion of right and wrong
- beauty
- family and country
-Justice
-freedom
etc.
what differs are details, in fact Europe is that fancy about regional differences and customs due to our tribal and feudal past - its good thingy though.
People from Asia or Africa don't see much differences between Poland and western country's (except that Poland is poorer - I think).
Although in western country's there are some changes in perception of right and wrong.
Maybe in the future Poland will be depositary of the "western" values when center will rotten with so called "advancement":P
Ironside
1 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
He done nothing for Poland.
He was like USA government, welcome our soldiers and money but give us ****.
His vision it was an EU under French and his rule - second face of the French revolution.
as for street numbers I could do without them ......
He done nothing for Poland.
He was like USA government, welcome our soldiers and money but give us ****.
His vision it was an EU under French and his rule - second face of the French revolution.
as for street numbers I could do without them ......
Ironside
30 Sep 2009
Ironside
30 Sep 2009
Life / Poland's westernization [44]
Well, is a version of western culture.....
I wouldn't say it's the western culture, Ironside.
Well, is a version of western culture.....
Ironside
30 Sep 2009
Life / Poland's westernization [44]
First we don't consider ourselves eastern Europeans.
Poland is the western culture.
Are you serious ? There nothing there except some people are trying to make money and unfortunately crap is sold as a culture adding pop to stress is crap for plebe.
Majority of any society is numbered by plebeians.
They have similar taste in any country.
What are the signs of advancement?
In a way, yes!
You in the geographical west have some basic, primal trust into your institution and government, even if you question or criticize this or that you on some deep level trust those in power and believe in system.
You hear often polish or eastern europeans
First we don't consider ourselves eastern Europeans.
does Poland hates the western culture
Poland is the western culture.
Poles indeed go to extremes when trying to copy our Western "pop"-culture.
Are you serious ? There nothing there except some people are trying to make money and unfortunately crap is sold as a culture adding pop to stress is crap for plebe.
Majority of any society is numbered by plebeians.
They have similar taste in any country.
who are not as advanced as we are.
What are the signs of advancement?
does that make us worse?
In a way, yes!
You in the geographical west have some basic, primal trust into your institution and government, even if you question or criticize this or that you on some deep level trust those in power and believe in system.
Ironside
30 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Who?
Its invention of Austria-Hungarian empire.
Vive le roi
We have the streets numerical today thanks to him ^^
Who?
Its invention of Austria-Hungarian empire.
Vive le roi
Ironside
30 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
What is good in having emperor ?
As for true democracy is something of an oxymoron ....
don't provoke me ......
Paradoxally while France changed a king to an emperor Poland was at the time the only country in the world (outside of US) grasping democractrue y.
What is good in having emperor ?
As for true democracy is something of an oxymoron ....
Let's hear somebody deny that one.
don't provoke me ......
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Commonwealth in EU as it is today wouldn't make much sense .....but in the future ...who knows?
PM me?
:P
Good night!
hat Commonwealth would appear to be too much of a pocket within Europe, the kind which Crow looks for. Cooperation is fine without branding it a Commonwealth. Just look at the Commonwealth in which Britain, Canada and Australia are members. Who really gives it a second thought thes
Commonwealth in EU as it is today wouldn't make much sense .....but in the future ...who knows?
can't divulge that kind of info, sorry ;)
PM me?
:P
Good night!
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Could you tell me?
As I don't understand him.
would make sense at last:).
Oh, I know who he is, don't worry about that
Could you tell me?
As I don't understand him.
Russian agent
would make sense at last:).
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
I don't think there is something like Russian mindset .
At last those in charge are very realistic and cunning and learned as to the ways of the world.
I'm surprised.
What do you mean by that?
Seanus
Don't bother to wind him up, I think he is actually Russian agent employed to change sentiments in Poland and Europe to Americans.
I think he is doing great job :D.
One of the problems with Russia is that its unable to stop, the moment it gets things rolling its heading for an European war that no one including Russia will want but due to Russian mindsets will be inevitable.
I don't think there is something like Russian mindset .
At last those in charge are very realistic and cunning and learned as to the ways of the world.
You will be surprised,
I'm surprised.
Ukrainian state government is very courteous to Polish-Ukrainian historical past.
What do you mean by that?
Seanus
Don't bother to wind him up, I think he is actually Russian agent employed to change sentiments in Poland and Europe to Americans.
I think he is doing great job :D.
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Think so?:)
And you want to wait for Ukraine to mature?
They will never mature if we wont treat them as mature....they will learn that with Poland they don't have to make an effort.
World will help them as they have nuclear weapons, world will not allow Russia to collapse as it could be dangerous.
Well, in short, your prediction is possible but not probable.
And we're doing that,
Think so?:)
we can solve many issues in the future but with a mature healthy Ukraine,
And you want to wait for Ukraine to mature?
They will never mature if we wont treat them as mature....they will learn that with Poland they don't have to make an effort.
Whats not likely?
World will help them as they have nuclear weapons, world will not allow Russia to collapse as it could be dangerous.
Well, in short, your prediction is possible but not probable.
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Could ...that good word.
I afraid that for me you will have to invent new scale as labels doesn't do me justice.
The best way to help is treat them as adults not cripples.
There is always exception.:)
As they have nuclear weapons its not likely.
Morality aside the consequences we could suffer would be analogous.
Could ...that good word.
I'm starting to think you're a hardcore right winger like UPR or something
I afraid that for me you will have to invent new scale as labels doesn't do me justice.
All true but you have to remember that unlike Poland they dont have the luxury of 1000 years cultural and civilizational backbone to oppose corruption, their nation was shaped by soviet mentality, instead of looking down on them we need to help them get out of this hopeless situation.
The best way to help is treat them as adults not cripples.
Tell that to Hungary.
There is always exception.:)
their economy is winding down at a speed that makes collapse within 10 years realistic.
As they have nuclear weapons its not likely.
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Your case is different because the land you wanted was in your state (Prussia ) because of your criminal attempt to destroy ancient Kingdom.
You were not right historical or otherwise to your claim.
lambs after Soviet brainwash.
Oh! This is a question for other thread or many threads.
Why Polish population is shrinking, why polish industry is discriminated against by "polish" government? And many others! Ask Seanus.
Today. There is always another day:P
Doesn't matter who is your neighbour as long as you are stronger.
If you are weak, having border with Monaco wont help you:P
Please!!!!
That ally is not able to settle its internal issues and after 20 years of independents is divided into three distinctive parts.
They are not able face Wolyn massacre and in Lwów they are making obstacles for Poles , not to say about historic buildings is the town which are close to become ruins.
And what about restoration for owners of land and houses ?
The best ally would have settled those issues long time ago.
What reaction?
We are discussing not acting!
I never thought I'll say something like that:) but you sound as typical Pole(when it comes to politics at last), for you talking is an action in itself.
In politics there only business there no friends.
You are the one deluding yourself about friendly that or this.
Everyone is friendly as long as you don't want anything from them:P
No problem.
Russia is acting already.
we wanted land back we thought which belongs to us
Your case is different because the land you wanted was in your state (Prussia ) because of your criminal attempt to destroy ancient Kingdom.
You were not right historical or otherwise to your claim.
and the vast majority of Poles came to accept it,
lambs after Soviet brainwash.
And then what?
Oh! This is a question for other thread or many threads.
Why Polish population is shrinking, why polish industry is discriminated against by "polish" government? And many others! Ask Seanus.
No we cant.
Today. There is always another day:P
daresay bordering only Germany is much better
Doesn't matter who is your neighbour as long as you are stronger.
If you are weak, having border with Monaco wont help you:P
You want to antagonize possibly the most important Polish ally
Please!!!!
That ally is not able to settle its internal issues and after 20 years of independents is divided into three distinctive parts.
They are not able face Wolyn massacre and in Lwów they are making obstacles for Poles , not to say about historic buildings is the town which are close to become ruins.
And what about restoration for owners of land and houses ?
The best ally would have settled those issues long time ago.
And he wanted reactions like yours,
What reaction?
We are discussing not acting!
I never thought I'll say something like that:) but you sound as typical Pole(when it comes to politics at last), for you talking is an action in itself.
Ukraine is important to us, friendly Ukraine.
In politics there only business there no friends.
You are the one deluding yourself about friendly that or this.
Everyone is friendly as long as you don't want anything from them:P
Sorry for saying that,
No problem.
he big future issue will be Ukraine's potential future accession to the EU and, perhaps, NATO. If Poland is too instrumental in that process, Russia will have sth to say about it.
Russia is acting already.
Ironside
20 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Send them to country which nationality they claim - send them to Ukraine.
Well, if you take an assumption that they played with words in 12th century in book - maybe.
As I said before to find out origin of the name is clearly impossible, and in long run it doesn't matter.
Nobody claim Kiev or area although many Poles used to live there before1914.
Kijów is Ukrainian town, no doubts about it.
We are talking about Polish lands like Lwów and area which before the WWII belonged to Poland.
I know that Ukraine in 1918 claimed this lands as they own - but had no grunts for such a claim.It was settled between Poland and Ukraine, today's border is made by Stalin, these are borders of Soviet Union and Soviet Poland.
You talk about respect, give as back our land and we are settled.
I'm all for independent Ukraine but I don't want to sacrifice our land for it, is that strange?
If you say so.
Never the less I don't see connection here.
And what? Get a city with a huge Ukrainian minority displeased with their situation? What are you going to do with them then? Genocide them all?
Send them to country which nationality they claim - send them to Ukraine.
Rather it meant seen in 12-th century's book that local people played with old Ukrainian and Slavic world "kraine" - "country". Makes sense now?
Well, if you take an assumption that they played with words in 12th century in book - maybe.
As I said before to find out origin of the name is clearly impossible, and in long run it doesn't matter.
We better concentrate on joining "old Polish towns" as Lviv/Lwow, Kyiv/Kijow to EU.
Nobody claim Kiev or area although many Poles used to live there before1914.
Kijów is Ukrainian town, no doubts about it.
We are talking about Polish lands like Lwów and area which before the WWII belonged to Poland.
I know that Ukraine in 1918 claimed this lands as they own - but had no grunts for such a claim.It was settled between Poland and Ukraine, today's border is made by Stalin, these are borders of Soviet Union and Soviet Poland.
You talk about respect, give as back our land and we are settled.
Ukrainian sovereignty
I'm all for independent Ukraine but I don't want to sacrifice our land for it, is that strange?
Germany tried it, learn from their failiures.
If you say so.
Never the less I don't see connection here.
Ironside
19 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Today, as for the future ........
Today, as for the future ........
Ironside
19 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Exactly my point!
????
Look above and think:p
We should worry about our stability not about others ........
This is not only about one town, it is about land.
Anyway I'm not proposing war. Just a clear record what's what's!
Edge of various Russian principalities for example, Lithuania, Poland etc.
Exactly my point!
It could, but the fact that it first appears in a Kievan Chronicle done by a Rusin implies its not.
????
Look above and think:p
There's a point at which you just have to let go, Ukrainians despite all the evil the UPA did are the victims just as much as we're, they're also a strategic country for Poland .
We should worry about our stability not about others ........
This is not only about one town, it is about land.
Anyway I'm not proposing war. Just a clear record what's what's!
Ironside
19 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
In the name of Justice, and to have our land back.
I hate to see our country striped almost naked from our lands, And to tell the truth Ukraine wouldn't really notice:P (5mln people versus 50mln).
Why if you agree with borders drawn by him?
It could be as well Polish word.
To be correct nobody can determine without a doubt whatever the word was Polish or Rutheanian or somebody else.
The same could be said about Ukraine, there no way to determine when and by whom it was used as a name of the country - and that the truth of it.
Never the less is stands to reason that the name "country on the edge" as you said "border lands" - so if Ukraine (Kiev and area ) are border lands or on edge, question arise - on the edge of what ?Otherwise it makes not sense !
Who would called his own country borderlands ??
Term Ukraine for country become popular in XVIII century and for people in the middle of XIX century.
Well, what is the truth?
It was as close to the our point of view on history as it could be!(I got my own views).
To say it is not the truth and nothing but but the truth one have to prove it:P
Whats to settle? They've got their country, we have ours, would you like to break us the sharp sticks in the name of historical sentiments?
In the name of Justice, and to have our land back.
I hate to see our country striped almost naked from our lands, And to tell the truth Ukraine wouldn't really notice:P (5mln people versus 50mln).
I could go to Stalins grave, open it, unzip and pay him my respects:)
Why if you agree with borders drawn by him?
Poles popularized the term but it originates somewhere in the ruthenian region about 900 years ago though it meant something else than today
It could be as well Polish word.
To be correct nobody can determine without a doubt whatever the word was Polish or Rutheanian or somebody else.
The same could be said about Ukraine, there no way to determine when and by whom it was used as a name of the country - and that the truth of it.
Never the less is stands to reason that the name "country on the edge" as you said "border lands" - so if Ukraine (Kiev and area ) are border lands or on edge, question arise - on the edge of what ?Otherwise it makes not sense !
Who would called his own country borderlands ??
Term Ukraine for country become popular in XVIII century and for people in the middle of XIX century.
wasnt always the same as truth,
Well, what is the truth?
It was as close to the our point of view on history as it could be!(I got my own views).
To say it is not the truth and nothing but but the truth one have to prove it:P
Ironside
18 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Paweł Jasienica books:P
Lwów is not Ukraine is Polish town, and sure as hell we should got it back.
It has nothing to do with Ukrainian state as I'm all for such state existence and development but it doesn't change a fact that we should settle our border issues first.
World was used but what are implication ?
I don't want to go into detailed discussion about it but to take it as definite prove of ancient name "Ukraine" can only some who want to believe it and hard!
To what end?:P
ome on Ironside, what books, commie version of history from the 60s?
Paweł Jasienica books:P
I think he means we will invade them, take back Lwów
Lwów is not Ukraine is Polish town, and sure as hell we should got it back.
It has nothing to do with Ukrainian state as I'm all for such state existence and development but it doesn't change a fact that we should settle our border issues first.
it was first used 1187 in the Kievan Chronicle.
World was used but what are implication ?
I don't want to go into detailed discussion about it but to take it as definite prove of ancient name "Ukraine" can only some who want to believe it and hard!
nice to occupy Moscow again too.
To what end?:P
Ironside
18 Sep 2009
News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]
Did they fight in 1939 ? That the news for me.
Well, I have only quote from the Internet.
after they recognized Soviet government in Warsaw.
Oh stop that bulsiht and explain to me how breach of the Agreement due to lack of means to carry it out is back-stab?
Really ? Was Poland independent state after 1945?
At last Poland give it try, failed and apologized on the spot - clear situation.
Thought British were pretending that nothing happened.
shut your trap Hairy - I just didn't know that, I'm sure you know everything.
You still didn't provide us with the bill for sell-out of Ukraine.
why did Britain fight in 1939?
Did they fight in 1939 ? That the news for me.
I note that you don't provide any proof of your claim/lie that Poland was paying the Ukrainian government in exile until 1939.
Well, I have only quote from the Internet.
yet British government failed to help financially Polish Government in exile.
after they recognized Soviet government in Warsaw.
Nice to see you backing off your lies for
Oh stop that bulsiht and explain to me how breach of the Agreement due to lack of means to carry it out is back-stab?
Poland got six long years of assistance from Britain and the entire treaty was honoured to the letter.
Really ? Was Poland independent state after 1945?
At last Poland give it try, failed and apologized on the spot - clear situation.
Thought British were pretending that nothing happened.
Pathetic even by your standards.
shut your trap Hairy - I just didn't know that, I'm sure you know everything.
You still didn't provide us with the bill for sell-out of Ukraine.
Ironside
18 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Well, that what is said in Poland's history books:P
I personally don't care but its stands to reason that it very well could be a Polish name as Kiev and area were populated mainly by people from Polish Kingdom after 1569.
What do you mean?
Oh no!!! Now it is Polish! :-)) I am just tired of this, every neighboring country claims origin of "Ukraine" word :-) Actually this is very common for many countries, so if you enjoy it, keep doing that
Well, that what is said in Poland's history books:P
I personally don't care but its stands to reason that it very well could be a Polish name as Kiev and area were populated mainly by people from Polish Kingdom after 1569.
Just respect sovereignty of Ukraine.
What do you mean?
Ironside
17 Sep 2009
News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]
Britain never intended to fight in 1939, so you comparison is not valid.
The treaty with Poland was signed as a bluff to stop the Germans, and Britain did not agree to build Polish state from the scratch.
You don't see a difference, maybe because you don't want to see it?
Polish government supported financially government UPR in exile (1921-1939), yet British government failed to help financially Polish Government in exile.
To make it clear I don't deny and never did that Riga treaty was a breach of Article IV of Warsaw Agreement but I fail to see it as back-stabbing.
My question is how you (apart from your obvious bias ) can claim that after military drawback in Kiev and strong opposition in Poland for the continuation of war as well as lack of means for prolonged warfare, Poland could continued on the course.
War supplies paid and ready to sent to Poland were blocked by the strike of dockers in the British ports - Hands off Russia - and I'm sure British government couldn't do anything about it as British ruling class is well known for their concern about working class.
Petlura was given such help as Poland was able to give.
They had no chance to win alone, so any help is better then none.
There no analogy between situation of Poland in the WWII and situation of Petlura and his supporters.
Could you point me to the quote where it says that such sum is for sell-out of Ukraine?
As I never denied that Poland supposed to received recompense from Bolsheviks or admit that you talk rubbish claiming that sum is for sell-out of Ukraine.
Hey thank you :P!
No lies Harry, I didn't know that so many states recognised UPR are you sure is right as its Internet sources - you know anybody can write it ......
As for support during the Polish stay in Kiev and area 3 thousand volunteers joined Petrula's two divisions, so all I can say is - It no good if he had supporters who were supporting him quietly, hell maybe he had millions of supporters but nobody knows about it.
As for honest try - how many British divisions were fighting on Polish soil even for a day?
( you insist on bringing Britain into it - not me Harry!)
It was an honest try!
at other country would do the same? By your 'logic', as the Ukrainian People's republic had been occupied for less than a month before Poland began to negotiate a peace treaty with the USSR, Britain and France would have been perfectly entitled in October of 1939 to negotiate peace with Germany and to agree to take 30 million gold rubles as compensation in such treaty. Instead Britain remained at war for six years.
Britain never intended to fight in 1939, so you comparison is not valid.
The treaty with Poland was signed as a bluff to stop the Germans, and Britain did not agree to build Polish state from the scratch.
You don't see a difference, maybe because you don't want to see it?
Polish government supported financially government UPR in exile (1921-1939), yet British government failed to help financially Polish Government in exile.
To make it clear I don't deny and never did that Riga treaty was a breach of Article IV of Warsaw Agreement but I fail to see it as back-stabbing.
My question is how you (apart from your obvious bias ) can claim that after military drawback in Kiev and strong opposition in Poland for the continuation of war as well as lack of means for prolonged warfare, Poland could continued on the course.
War supplies paid and ready to sent to Poland were blocked by the strike of dockers in the British ports - Hands off Russia - and I'm sure British government couldn't do anything about it as British ruling class is well known for their concern about working class.
Petlura was given such help as Poland was able to give.
They had no chance to win alone, so any help is better then none.
There no analogy between situation of Poland in the WWII and situation of Petlura and his supporters.
Article XIII of the Treaty of Riga "Russia and the Ukraine agree to pay to Poland within the period of one year at the latest after the ratification of the present Treaty the sum of 30 million roubles gold in specie and in bars".
Could you point me to the quote where it says that such sum is for sell-out of Ukraine?
As I never denied that Poland supposed to received recompense from Bolsheviks or admit that you talk rubbish claiming that sum is for sell-out of Ukraine.
Nice logic there!
Hey thank you :P!
Three lies in a single sentence
No lies Harry, I didn't know that so many states recognised UPR are you sure is right as its Internet sources - you know anybody can write it ......
As for support during the Polish stay in Kiev and area 3 thousand volunteers joined Petrula's two divisions, so all I can say is - It no good if he had supporters who were supporting him quietly, hell maybe he had millions of supporters but nobody knows about it.
As for honest try - how many British divisions were fighting on Polish soil even for a day?
( you insist on bringing Britain into it - not me Harry!)
It was an honest try!
Ironside
16 Sep 2009
News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]
He is dead Harry. You try.
I already did, As no such state existed (nobody but Poland recognized that state), and Petlura had no support from his own citizen, Poland give it try, an honest try.
We didn't agree to built state from the scratch and then support and nurse it indefinitely,
When Piłsudski apologized he did it as a matter of honour.
He tried, failed and apologized.
What other country in the world would do the same?
none....
Sure they should paid no matter what - they agreed to pay and they should had paid. Do you see problem ? I don't!
I'm not saying that payment is price for Ukraine - its your own Fairy-Harry invention.
I would like you to quote document where such sell-out of Ukraine by Poland for said sum took place. If not admit you talk rubbish.
Got a quote from him about that?
He is dead Harry. You try.
an you supply an interpretation of how signing a seperate peace treaty is not a breach of a commitment not to sign a seperate peace treaty? I'd love to see that bit of linguistic gymnastics.
I already did, As no such state existed (nobody but Poland recognized that state), and Petlura had no support from his own citizen, Poland give it try, an honest try.
We didn't agree to built state from the scratch and then support and nurse it indefinitely,
When Piłsudski apologized he did it as a matter of honour.
He tried, failed and apologized.
What other country in the world would do the same?
none....
So your complaint is that the Soviets should have paid?
Sure they should paid no matter what - they agreed to pay and they should had paid. Do you see problem ? I don't!
I'm not saying that payment is price for Ukraine - its your own Fairy-Harry invention.
didn't ever pay the price which Poland had agreed for Ukraine!
I would like you to quote document where such sell-out of Ukraine by Poland for said sum took place. If not admit you talk rubbish.
Ironside
16 Sep 2009
News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]
More likely policy of supporting its own industry - as USA does even today.
Most likely they thought they can handle Russia with Rumania's help, and Germany with the help of France and Britain.
Must have come to conclusion that joint attack by Germany and Soviets in the light of Hitler ambition to destroy Bolsheviks and Russia is very unlikely. Never say never!
Ignoring it Harry?
at the time that Polish Pride may have gotten in the way
More likely policy of supporting its own industry - as USA does even today.
Poland thought that she could handle Germany and Russia on her own.
Most likely they thought they can handle Russia with Rumania's help, and Germany with the help of France and Britain.
Must have come to conclusion that joint attack by Germany and Soviets in the light of Hitler ambition to destroy Bolsheviks and Russia is very unlikely. Never say never!
do you have a prove of your claim that Poland sell -out Ukraine for such and such sum or you are ready to admit that you talking rubbish ?
Ignoring it Harry?
Ironside
16 Sep 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]
Its not true that both names coexisted at the same time.
Ukraine is Polish name of the country( today eastern- central part) so, before 1569 nobody was called Ukrainian.
And later it wasn't common to be called Ukrainian - full flow that name got in the XIX century.
Second reason no every Ruthenian = Ukrainian, thing to keep in mind.
Yes and No :P
In 1654 Cossacks "think" they will be better with Czar:)
1701 Poland Kingdom become dependent of Russia .
1709 Sicz destroyed by Peter I
1734 New Sicz rebuild
1772 first partition of Poland
1775 New Sicz destroyed definitely by Katharine II
You keep calling Ukrainians as Ruthenians even both names existed that ancient time and meant the same. Why?
Its not true that both names coexisted at the same time.
Ukraine is Polish name of the country( today eastern- central part) so, before 1569 nobody was called Ukrainian.
And later it wasn't common to be called Ukrainian - full flow that name got in the XIX century.
Second reason no every Ruthenian = Ukrainian, thing to keep in mind.
Yes, and it happened in some 100+ years after Ukraine signed the treaty with Moscow czar.
Yes and No :P
In 1654 Cossacks "think" they will be better with Czar:)
1701 Poland Kingdom become dependent of Russia .
1709 Sicz destroyed by Peter I
1734 New Sicz rebuild
1772 first partition of Poland
1775 New Sicz destroyed definitely by Katharine II
Ironside
15 Sep 2009
News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]
That state clearly existed on paper ....Agreement was to build such a state ....
Anyway read my arguments above .......as for breaking Article IV - its your interpretation, even Petlura didn't blame Poles.
We are discussing Poland now, if you wish we can discus Britain!
I asked you:
If Soviet agreed to pay they should pay.
Now do you have a prove of your claim that Poland sell -out Ukraine for such and such sum or you are ready to admit that you talking rubbish ?
Article I contains agreement as to what the Ukrainian People's republic is: it is a state!
That state clearly existed on paper ....Agreement was to build such a state ....
Anyway read my arguments above .......as for breaking Article IV - its your interpretation, even Petlura didn't blame Poles.
Britain
We are discussing Poland now, if you wish we can discus Britain!
I asked you:
to provide documents stating that said money was price for sell-out of Ukraine
Are you seriously trying to complain that Poland didn't receive the price it had agreed to sell Ukraine to the Soviets for?!
If Soviet agreed to pay they should pay.
Now do you have a prove of your claim that Poland sell -out Ukraine for such and such sum or you are ready to admit that you talking rubbish ?