Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


Indeed, it is. But as I read it I pay attention to language structures as well. I try to be particularly aware of the use of the definite/indefinite/none article in the text. Though I think I'm fairly good at it (you may make your comment on that, if you like), the sense of "naturality" in using them still evades me, so I do try to follow their use while reading texts. What I've found interesting in the book is that they always use "Scottish history" without any article, while they always put "the" in front of "Scottish past".

Besides, the reading frequently brings back the memories of my "once-upon-a-time" lonely student journey all around ... Scotland at a time when no one at their senses could have even imagined the future Polish "invasion" of the British Isles ...

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


No, it's definitely not me, Seanus. I'm reading "A Short History of Scotland" at the moment ...

Law / Permission to sell alcohol in Poland [3]

You should consult the bill on that: "Ustawa o wychowaniu w trzeźwości i przeciwdziałaniu alkoholizmowi". What's your problem in particular?

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

Thank you, Seanus. It has perhaps saved me an effort to prepare guns for a battle on "the difference between correct and proper". I am then going to resume my reading of the book "A Short History of Scotland" by Richard Killeen which I accidentally bought two days ago. Anyway, it's been of use to have different opinions as the discussion developed and gained its new linguistic dimensions.

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

Seanus
Well, my fiancee graduated in English Philology and she is Polish. She'd be happy to explain to you why ludziach is proper.
What's the difference between correct and proper?

Well, I think I will finish the discussion at this point in order not to disturb your fiancée. I'd be just happy if you pass my best regards to her ...

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

If we may arrive on some sort of a compromise, I would call it: correct, but not proper ...

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


Ah, here you've supplied me with the amunition that I needed, Seanus. While I never said your phrase "o trzech ludziach" is incorrect, I did say such usage is very awkward and should be avoided. "Wielu ludzi" is perfectly all right. Three is really too few to talk about them this way. I am sure that if TVN were, for example, reporting an accident they would use "trzy osoby zostały dzisiaj ranne w wypadku" or "brak jest jakichkolwiek informacji o trzech osobach zaginionych w wyniku katastrofy statku". They would never use "trzej ludzie" or "o trzech ludziach" in the above contexts, this risking to be too clumsy, although grammatically correct.

The only good context for using "trzej ludzie" or "o trzech ludziach" will be the military where they will certainly say "od wczoraj nie mamy wiadomosci o naszych trzech ludziach wysłanych na akcję"; they will never say "nie mamy wiadomości o trzech osobach wysłanych na akcję" as this would sound somewhat artificial in the army.

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

Seanus

Is kazać perfective or imperfective? Now it seems to me now that you were right (imperfective), although that doesn't change my view on those policemen gving their orders. Can the verb be perfective and imperfective at the same time? I'm asking myself this question, but I don't find any answer yet ....

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

Both dwaj ludzie and dwóch ludzi is correct. ("Dwoje ludzi" is also correct, it will mean a couple).
Why is it correct? Here is the dictionary explanation in Polish:

Przy rzeczownikach męskosobowych [and such are the nouns: ludzie, koledzy] używana jest forma dwaj łącząca się z mianownikiem liczby mnogiej rzeczownika: dwaj koledzy,

lub forma dopełniaczowa dwóch łącząca się w związku zgody z dopełniaczem liczby mnogiej rzeczownika: dwóch kolegów.

Obie te formy: dwaj koledzy i dwóch kolegów występują w zdaniu w funkcji podmiotu. Orzeczenie przybiera przy wyrażeniu dwaj koledzy formę liczby mnogiej: dwaj koledzy idą, dwaj koledzy szli. [Per analogiam: dwaj ludzie idą, dwaj ludzie szli.]

Przy wyrażeniu dwóch kolegów – formę liczby pojedynczej: dwóch kolegów idzie, dwóch kolegów szło. [Per analogiam: dwóch ludzi idzie, dwóch ludzi szło.]

To end this rather complicated explanation, here is a joke:
Dwóch Rosjan wraca [the verb is in the singular] z polowania dźwigając niedźwiedzia.
Dwaj Amerykanie pytają [the verb is in the plural]:
- Grizli?
- Niet, strielali...

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


Sorry, but it did. It was the intention of the authors of the exercise as they clearly indicated the character of the groups in brackets: "(of mixed sex)" and "(also of mixed sex)".


These are purely academic remarks which have nothing to do with the use of ludzie/osoby in this context. I'm sure I've explained it quite well by giving the example of usage in the army.


Yes, I do, Seanus. Both rozkazali and kazali are perfective. The imperfective of the former is rozkazywali. I don't know the imperfective of the latter (suggestions are welcome).

The next paragraph is an academic discussion of which I cannot grasp much.

The last paragraph refers to your doubts on rozkazali/kazali (so I should think). But since both of them are perfective, it seems to be poinless. The real difference between the two verbs is that the former is much stronger than the latter.

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

Lol, Scottish people from Aberdeen are renown for their ability to persevere ... :-)


If it is, then you've failed it (sześcioro, czworgu).


Now I know why I wouldn't use "ludzi" in that context. You generally use "ludzie" when you see them en masse rather than as individuals. It is most likely that here they are considered as three individuals sitting on a bench, so we see them as "osoby". In the army, however, I'm sure they would say "wysyłamy oddział w sile trzech ludzi, aby rozpoznać zamiary nieprzyjaciela". Here, the soldiers are seen simply as manpower.


Great, the good word that can replace "rozkazali" in here is in fact "kazali"!


Sure, it can be both, but it's much more likely that the bench was not close to where they were.

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]

In fact, you did state that ...

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


I would definitely opt for "o trzech osobach" rather than "o trzech ludziach". It is even difficult to say why, but "ludziach" in this context sounds to me equally awkward as saying "kobieta razem ze swoimi trzema wujkami" instead of "wujami". Perhaps the situation here resembles the one about making a reservation of a table in a restaurant where English prefers "persons" as well.

I would not use "rozkazali" as it sounds far too strong in Polish in this context. The verb "polecili" is much better. I would also use "tamtych" instead of "tych" or would omit this personal pronoun altogether. Otherwise, your translation is excellent, Seanus.

Formally, you should use "sześcioro policjantów" and "czworgu przechodniom" as these are groups of both sexes. The reader will get additional information, but there is really no need to do this, so treating "policjantów" and "przechodniów" by their gramatical male gender is correct in my view.

Language / Polish grammar exercises from hell [130]


Excellent! You've been careful enough to pick up nouns that come only in the plural form (szczypce, sanie) which, the same as nouns describing groups of people or animals consisting of members od both sexes, require the numeral forms of dwoje, troje, czworo etc. Although "nożyczki" as well as "spodnie" fall in the same category, we tend to say "trzy pary nożyczek/spodni" instead of "troje nożyczek/spodni".

I would say: dwoma wujami rather than wujkami as this is rather a formal context for describing such a person.

Language / Examples of zakupić and kupić [8]

I'd say that the couple imperfective-perfective of the verb "buy" is kupować-kupić rather than "kupić-zakupić". In that sense the verb "zakupić" is a different one.

Of course, it means exactly the same as "kupić". I think it is rarely used in "normal" language. It may be more often heard in "official" contexts. At home, no one would say "zakupiłem chleb", they will say "kupiłem chleb". The noun "zakupy" formed on this verb seems indespensable, however. You say "idę na zakupy" or "zrobiłem zakupy", but never "idę na kupy" or "zrobiłem kupy", the last one would have a rather nasty meaning ...

Genealogy / Łokucewicz [10]

It sounds to be of Bielorussian origin. It is quite possible to find such a name on the other side of the border as most locals in the vicinity of Białowieża didn't move accordingly to the change of frontiers after the WWII.

Genealogy / Łozowe [15]

In villages like that older people or their descendants will usually tell you what they know about £okucewicz and the such family if it used to live there. You should just go to see them as they will not visit you. There is a nice hotel in Białowieża at which I once stayed and enjoyed their cuisine very much!

History / Why are we called Poles instead of Polans? [29]


It's not an older form. As I said, the name denotes something different than "the Polish" or "Poles", and the two names should not be confounded.

History / Why are we called Poles instead of Polans? [29]

Polans (Polanie) is the name of the tribe that used to live in what is roughly today's Wielkopolska (Great Poland). The name Poles or Polish referred (and refers) to all inhabitants of Poland which included the tribe of Wiślanie (Little Poland), Mazowszanie (Mazovia), Ślązacy (Silesia), Pomorzanie (Pomerania), althoug the latter belonged to the non-Polish, but Slavic tribes of Pomeranians that inhabited lands along the Baltic coast from the river Elbe to the river Vistula (of which the Kashubians with their own language are the only Slavic, non-Germanized descendants) and many other, minor Polish tribes.

Language / Mężczyzno [7]

Mężczyzno z mojej bajki ...

Kobieto, puchu marny!

Language / Gwara Śląska [24]

Cesta = Droga/Podróż, as the Czech have it in this meaning ...

Language / Gwara Śląska [24]

No idea what "asić się" means. Would be quite interested to read a few more!

Life / Poland's westernization [44]


It is because I rememember hyperinflation and the time which followed the reforms of Balcerowicz ...

In a way, his reforms were perceived in Poland much in the same way as the Thatcher reforms in the UK ten years earlier, although the Polish ones were undoubtedly harsher (Incidentally, I spent both respective periods firstly in Britain then in Poland). Critics might have well be putting their words in Mr. Balcerowicz's mouth just in the same way as they were putting them in hers ("Mrs. Thatcher": "People keep saying to me that our policies are wrong, that they are derisive and that they will wreck British industry ... I know ... but they are ever so brave!"). Unemployment - in my view - was inevitable, as thousands of people with poor professional skills had suddenly found themselves in companies confronted with real market conditions ("Mrs T." again: "Unemployment - how dare you!?; why must everyone persecute me?, ... every lazy minority who can't fend for themselves ..."). Finally, both governments repeatedly said to their people there were no easy solutions as things must first get worse before they can get better; this turned out to be plain truth for Poland, although you can judge for yourself if it was the case in Britain ("the Iron Lady" of 1981 once again: "We never said things would be easy. Of course, we never said we'd cause a recession and three million unemployed ...")

This, in short, was the beginning of our Polish path to ... westernization !!!

Life / Poland's westernization [44]


The reforms of Balcerowicz took the country into hyperinflation ??? Where is the idea from? The reform did the reverse to the inflation!!!

Life / Poland's westernization [44]


"Fajny/fajna" is an assimilated borrowing into Polish from the German word "fein"; the borrowing occurred long ago before English acquired its ridiculous omnipotent importance in Poland.

Otherwise, I do agree with the rest of your comment. As a Pole living in Poland, I am also very much annoyed by people using English words within Polish. It is a characteristic of those who try to feel "better" by imitating those whom they regard "better" as themselves. Please notice that it is not an exclusively Polish speciality, however, and was best ridiculed in Molière's masterpiece comedy "Le Bourgeois gentilhomme" of the 17th century which was describing the complexes of the "newly-rich" inhabitants of Paris.

Genealogy / My ancestors named Blankinsee came from Potok, Prussia [5]

The name Prussia in reference to the 18th and early 19th century is ambiguous. The Polish (until the first partition of Poland in 1772) part was called "Royal Prussia", wheras the original Prussian part was called "Duke's Prussia". What precisely would you like to know? The original surname of your ancestors or where the village of Potok (definitely a Polish name meaning "stream") is situated?

History / General Stanisław Sosabowski and the 1st Polish Parachute Brigade in Arnhem. [11]


I didn't know the name of General Sosabowski, though I can vaguely remember I must have read or heard a discussion in connection with him quite recently. Certainly, he's not an "icon" name in Poland, such as General Anders or General Sosnkowski, not to mention General Sikorski. But people who are more interested in the history of the WWII must surely have heard of him.

This Dutch friend of mine I have mentioned seemed to have been subjected to a "brainwash" about the battle of Arnhem by his male relatives. He was describing stories told by them as "never ending" ones. The battle must have been going on in his backyard, too, as he appeared to understand most of the captions under the maps and photographs in the Polish book we were looking upon in the bookshop in Warsaw. Otherwise, he didn't speak a single word of Polish!

History / Another WWII thread. [69]

It's true ... I sometimes read them for fun ... and, as you may have noticed, I'm asking questions for fun ... no one is interested to answer ... I still don't know if the Royal Navy did make this U-turn in the Baltic in 1939 or did not ...

UK, Ireland / "Angry swan eater" - The British media view of Polish immigrants? [63]

Polish swan eater - is it for real or is it for fun? I just can't figure out ... did the British catch any Poles catching swans? Has anyone been taken to court or fined for that?

History / General Stanisław Sosabowski and the 1st Polish Parachute Brigade in Arnhem. [11]


You must remember that the communist rulers of Poland would not allow such facts to be widely known in Poland. For example, I have heard that the Russians did not allow the use of Russian airfields in the context of the proposed Allied Forces help to the Warsaw Uprising, but not specifically with the 1st Polish Parachute forces. Of course, the Bitwa pod Arnheim name widely is known here, although it is perhaps less known than the Bitwa pod Monte Cassino.

I was very much surprised when I once entered a bookshop in Warsaw with a visiting Dutch friend of mine and he, having spotted a Polish book about the battle of Arhem, opened it and seemed to know everything about the battle and particularly about the Polish presence in the battle. When I asked him where he got to know all about this, he told me that he knew it from his relatives and their friends who constantly told him stories about that battle. He praised the Polish soldiers of the battle very much and said almost everybody in the Netherlands knew of their role in it. It seems that ordinary Dutch people know more about it than - as you say - television programmes are keen to tell them.