Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
When was it polish? The Great Moravian Empire was polish???
Wiki says afterwards it was part of the hungarian Kingdom for nearly a millennia..
You mean like the uprisings against the commies in Berlin and Budapest?
Poland had Slovakia as a vassal then later Hungary had it. They didn't fight each other over it. That was my point!
When was it polish? The Great Moravian Empire was polish???
Wiki says afterwards it was part of the hungarian Kingdom for nearly a millennia..
The fundement of the eternal friendship was from the middle ages later it got blessed forever by co-operational uprisings.
You mean like the uprisings against the commies in Berlin and Budapest?
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
Well...I wondered too as you presented Slovakia as a kind of evidence...so I googled...
Well..Czechoslovakia was a child of the Treaty of Versailles/Trianon (those treaties which robbed Germany and Hungary), the same as Poland.
I would have thought Poland would muster some sympathy for the Czechs and Slovaks...:)
Well...I wondered too as you presented Slovakia as a kind of evidence...so I googled...
Somehow I can't understand that thing you presented me, were the Slovaks backed by Poles?
Well..Czechoslovakia was a child of the Treaty of Versailles/Trianon (those treaties which robbed Germany and Hungary), the same as Poland.
I would have thought Poland would muster some sympathy for the Czechs and Slovaks...:)
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
You mean that?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia
Or this?
I dunno...but Hungary's history shares much more with the Germans than with Poles for example!
You mean that?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia
...During the revolution in 1848-49 the Slovaks supported the Austrian Emperor with the ambition to secede from the Hungarian part of the Austrian monarchy, but they failed to achieve this aim.[citation needed]
Thereafter relations between the nationalities deteriorated (see Magyarization), resulting in the secession of Slovakia from Hungary after World War I. [17]..
Thereafter relations between the nationalities deteriorated (see Magyarization), resulting in the secession of Slovakia from Hungary after World War I. [17]..
Or this?
...More than 80,000 Hungarians[22] and 32,000 Germans[23] were forced to leave Slovakia, in a series of population transfers initiated by the Allies at the Potsdam Conference.[24] This expulsion is still a source of tension between Slovakia and Hungary.[25] ...
I dunno...but Hungary's history shares much more with the Germans than with Poles for example!
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
What is happening?
I don't see big times of decisons...
I will wait for the first Hungary-Poland conflict of interest and we will see how that is handled by both...right? Right!
Well...as I learnt they had at least three conflicts in their past where Hungary choose not the "loved" polish side but the german side to ally and fight with (Teutonic Order/WW1/WW2).
You can whitewash this as much as you want but it doesn't change the facts!
At least 3 examples where the interests differed and the decisons were made accordingly...something fully common and normal, as it was to be expected.
Becaouse there are facts, it happened and is happening,
What is happening?
I don't see big times of decisons...
I will wait for the first Hungary-Poland conflict of interest and we will see how that is handled by both...right? Right!
Hungary-Poland relations are to be said very special cause it had borders! (The states) that ment they could have some interest conflicts but they somehow didn't have any of that!
Well...as I learnt they had at least three conflicts in their past where Hungary choose not the "loved" polish side but the german side to ally and fight with (Teutonic Order/WW1/WW2).
You can whitewash this as much as you want but it doesn't change the facts!
At least 3 examples where the interests differed and the decisons were made accordingly...something fully common and normal, as it was to be expected.
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
As I said!
You are a mix...so keep out! :)
Yes and Swedens think you are nothing but fallovers and traitors and weaklings (Quisling)...
Germanic tribes always b*tich between each other...nothing new here.
Man, that is exactly what I try to prove here!
Scandinavians can't even stand each other.
If not even family "loves" each other unconditionally but clashes if interests come into conflict how can unrelated people "eternal love" each other even if a conflict should arose???
You wish! I am Norwegian/Pole
As I said!
You are a mix...so keep out! :)
Yes and Swedens think you are nothing but fallovers and traitors and weaklings (Quisling)...
Germanic tribes always b*tich between each other...nothing new here.
Scandinavians have maybe some common anscestry or 100% sure. But it doesn't mean they generally like Germans
Man, that is exactly what I try to prove here!
Scandinavians can't even stand each other.
If not even family "loves" each other unconditionally but clashes if interests come into conflict how can unrelated people "eternal love" each other even if a conflict should arose???
Bratwurst Boy
13 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
Yes, Torqi...it was meant as a joke!
The same joke as your "eternal friendship" with Hungary is.
There is no such a thing between nations, can't be...only between people.
And of course...peoples who don't share a border, suffer rarely any conflicts with each other of course have a a more favourable view of each other...only logically (and only as long as it lasts)
(But even then in times of decisions Hungary again and again decided to side with the Germans).
I really wonder about your rose-tinted view...
Germans are related to the Scandinavians, many English, many Americans, Dutch etc...we are from the same tribe, the same family...didn't stop us from fighting each other if interests clashed.
Germany, Great Britain, USA - all big, important, influential countries (at the time of their clashes)
That is normal and common across history...what you dream of is not normal and won't hold up if pushes come to shove once Poland get's mightier or Hungary get's more powerful. The current alliance between two weak countries won't hold.
Man Grunwald, you are a Pole who thinks german culture consists of beer and the Octoberfest...keep your comments out!
Did you ever read the Edda? I highly doubt it!
May I remind Grunwald that the Norwegians are the joke of the Swedens??? Now that is a relationship - worse than the Germans and the Dutch!
Can it be because both share a border and some unhappy history???
So much for...
Yes, Torqi...it was meant as a joke!
The same joke as your "eternal friendship" with Hungary is.
There is no such a thing between nations, can't be...only between people.
And of course...peoples who don't share a border, suffer rarely any conflicts with each other of course have a a more favourable view of each other...only logically (and only as long as it lasts)
(But even then in times of decisions Hungary again and again decided to side with the Germans).
I really wonder about your rose-tinted view...
Germans are related to the Scandinavians, many English, many Americans, Dutch etc...we are from the same tribe, the same family...didn't stop us from fighting each other if interests clashed.
Germany, Great Britain, USA - all big, important, influential countries (at the time of their clashes)
That is normal and common across history...what you dream of is not normal and won't hold up if pushes come to shove once Poland get's mightier or Hungary get's more powerful. The current alliance between two weak countries won't hold.
Yes for all Norse, Germans are Germanic!
Keep away mixing coltures!! ;(
Keep away mixing coltures!! ;(
Man Grunwald, you are a Pole who thinks german culture consists of beer and the Octoberfest...keep your comments out!
Did you ever read the Edda? I highly doubt it!
May I remind Grunwald that the Norwegians are the joke of the Swedens??? Now that is a relationship - worse than the Germans and the Dutch!
Can it be because both share a border and some unhappy history???
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
Sure!
Icelandic Snorri Sturluson is the poet who wrote the Edda, the "bible" for all norse people if you so want! :)
Scandinavia/Iceland etc. is the cradle of the germanic peoples
So Iceland and Germany have 1000 years history of political, military and cultural
co-operation?
co-operation?
Sure!
Icelandic Snorri Sturluson is the poet who wrote the Edda, the "bible" for all norse people if you so want! :)
Icelanders and Germans are brothers.
Scandinavia/Iceland etc. is the cradle of the germanic peoples
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
We have eternal friendships with Iceland...Greenland...and any other country far away and not in our sphere of interest. :):):)
It's a common phenomenon not only in Europe that direct neighbours have more difficult histories with each other than with those who don't share a border.
I dare to predict that if you had Hungary vying for the same sphere of influence as Poland you WOULD more differentiate in your love and friendship! :)
Yeah...a curious country...
Hungary allies itself with the Teutonic Knights but the Hungarians don't like it.
Hungary is part of the Habsburg Empire which took a big chunk out of Poland but the Poles are holding only grudges against the Germans and the Russians.
Hungary allies itself two times in both world wars with Germany but of course the Hungarians hate it again and secretly cheer the Poles and again Poles only blame the Germans and the Russians...
What a history! :)
If I were Pole I would ask the Hungarians to decide once and for all what they really want...
We have eternal friendships with Iceland...Greenland...and any other country far away and not in our sphere of interest. :):):)
It's a common phenomenon not only in Europe that direct neighbours have more difficult histories with each other than with those who don't share a border.
I dare to predict that if you had Hungary vying for the same sphere of influence as Poland you WOULD more differentiate in your love and friendship! :)
Good point, this however doesnt change the fact that when Hungary allied themselves with the Teutonic Knights the crushing majority of the nobles blatantly refused to fight Poland.
Yeah...a curious country...
Hungary allies itself with the Teutonic Knights but the Hungarians don't like it.
Hungary is part of the Habsburg Empire which took a big chunk out of Poland but the Poles are holding only grudges against the Germans and the Russians.
Hungary allies itself two times in both world wars with Germany but of course the Hungarians hate it again and secretly cheer the Poles and again Poles only blame the Germans and the Russians...
What a history! :)
If I were Pole I would ask the Hungarians to decide once and for all what they really want...
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
What about the time as the Magyars terrorized Europe, also Poland?
And Hungary was for long time proud part of the Habsburg empire, the same what partitioned Poland...
You can write a history very black or very white! :)
Actually 1000 years of Polish-Hungarian friendship seems to provide a counter argument
What about the time as the Magyars terrorized Europe, also Poland?
And Hungary was for long time proud part of the Habsburg empire, the same what partitioned Poland...
You can write a history very black or very white! :)
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
It's an interesting mind game to see how far your concept of "eternal friendship between the polish and hungarian nation" would go.
No more, no less.
I told you before that I don't believe in such things and history proves me right.
The today allies are tomorrow's enemies or neutrals.
All that matters are national interests.
Brits and Germans for example were best friends as it did go against the French for a long time.
A small interest conflict (and border conflicts are never small) can break up such an "eternal friendship" quite easily!
No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, sorry sir!
PS: I have nothing against friendship between the people, it's that "eternal" what irks me! :)
I simply see no point in asking myself questions like that.
It's an interesting mind game to see how far your concept of "eternal friendship between the polish and hungarian nation" would go.
No more, no less.
I told you before that I don't believe in such things and history proves me right.
The today allies are tomorrow's enemies or neutrals.
All that matters are national interests.
Brits and Germans for example were best friends as it did go against the French for a long time.
A small interest conflict (and border conflicts are never small) can break up such an "eternal friendship" quite easily!
No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, sorry sir!
PS: I have nothing against friendship between the people, it's that "eternal" what irks me! :)
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
It could have happened...but ask yourself how your "eternal friendship" would had held up...I tell you not very well. (It's an easy "What if"-question)
The stoopids in Versailles often did not make any sense at all...
They wanted to destroy and shatter potential rival empires, no matter what.
Everybody knows what followed instead..
PS: I never knew Eskimos and Angolans shared the same continent..:)
That would be very unlikely
It could have happened...but ask yourself how your "eternal friendship" would had held up...I tell you not very well. (It's an easy "What if"-question)
The stoopids in Versailles often did not make any sense at all...
They wanted to destroy and shatter potential rival empires, no matter what.
Everybody knows what followed instead..
PS: I never knew Eskimos and Angolans shared the same continent..:)
Bratwurst Boy
11 Jul 2009
History / Poland and Hungary in September 1939 [79]
If Hungary would had lost lands to Poland too the mood would had been different.
(And I doubt Poland would had given it back even with their "eternal friendship" with the hungarian people in mind...friendship doesn't go that far!)
It could had very well happened.
The foreign border drawing politicians in Versailles were very "generous" in taking from one and gifting it around the place..
What then???
Hungarians have proven once again that there was more than just a common border that connects Poles and Hungarians.
If Hungary would had lost lands to Poland too the mood would had been different.
(And I doubt Poland would had given it back even with their "eternal friendship" with the hungarian people in mind...friendship doesn't go that far!)
...The principal beneficiaries of territorial adjustment were Romania, Czechoslovakia, and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.
It could had very well happened.
The foreign border drawing politicians in Versailles were very "generous" in taking from one and gifting it around the place..
What then???
Bratwurst Boy
10 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Ouch! :)
Yale and Harvard turned out such geniuses as...George Bush.
Ouch! :)
Bratwurst Boy
10 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
What's wrong with "Bor-Komorowski"? Even I have no problems with that.
Calling him "Boor" IS curious to say at least...(and it is not even an anglicism and I think the General wouldn't like to be called that way in a work of history)
What's wrong with "Bor-Komorowski"? Even I have no problems with that.
Calling him "Boor" IS curious to say at least...(and it is not even an anglicism and I think the General wouldn't like to be called that way in a work of history)
Bratwurst Boy
10 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Then I claim Nicola Tesla for Austria! ;)
*looks around for Crowie*
(He was for sure ethnical Serb but was subject to
the austrian Empire....so there)
Can't we all just agree that he was Polish and end this silly argument?
;)
;)
Then I claim Nicola Tesla for Austria! ;)
*looks around for Crowie*
(He was for sure ethnical Serb but was subject to
the austrian Empire....so there)
Bratwurst Boy
10 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Don't sweat it, but make sure you have a viable link to support your claims next time.
What??? Now I should provide the proof for YOUR claim???
And I told you before that we had already a lengthy and passionate discussion about the heritage of Kopernikus here on PF before...many pages long.
We found lot's of stuff and facts and some disputed claims (you could search the forum, you will easily find this thread) but nobody could find a proof that he ever used polish, hence the interest for your claim!
Nope...any evidence will be enough but just saying so isn't!
Sorry, I'm not in a position to answer right now.
Don't sweat it, but make sure you have a viable link to support your claims next time.
If that is the case, please do, in fact, find a better one, and I'll thank you for it.
What??? Now I should provide the proof for YOUR claim???
And I told you before that we had already a lengthy and passionate discussion about the heritage of Kopernikus here on PF before...many pages long.
We found lot's of stuff and facts and some disputed claims (you could search the forum, you will easily find this thread) but nobody could find a proof that he ever used polish, hence the interest for your claim!
Though, since any historian that claims 'evidence that Copernicus spoke the Polish language' could just be written off by you as 'Polonophilic', that will likely be very difficult.
Nope...any evidence will be enough but just saying so isn't!
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]
Well...you get things done with this credo! :)
Ordnung muss sein!
Well...you get things done with this credo! :)
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]
I think he meant that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Posen#Failure_of_the_policy
Forgetting to mention how "brutal" and "harsh" it was in reality:
Man, how brutal and harsh this Germanization was!
I think he meant that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Posen#Failure_of_the_policy
Forgetting to mention how "brutal" and "harsh" it was in reality:
...Prussia's Germanisation policies in the Province of Posen mostly failed.
Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans.
....
Although most of the administrative measures aimed against the Poles remained in force until 1918, between 1912 and 1914 only four Polish-owned estates were expropriated, while at the same time Polish social organizations successfully competed with German trade organizations and even started to buy land from the Germans.
....
Man, how brutal and harsh this Germanization was!
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Well....I just think we should use other sources beside him to prove a point in a discussion.
(Just to make sure)
If his facts and conclusions are correct (as with Kopernikus using polish) then they will be supported by others too, no doubt...(as it was with Gross' findings about Jedwabne)
biased polonophile
Well....I just think we should use other sources beside him to prove a point in a discussion.
(Just to make sure)
If his facts and conclusions are correct (as with Kopernikus using polish) then they will be supported by others too, no doubt...(as it was with Gross' findings about Jedwabne)
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Yes, sorry about the typos...I apologize! (As I wanted to correct them the mod already closed my post...mean mod!)
Yes, sorry about the typos...I apologize! (As I wanted to correct them the mod already closed my post...mean mod!)
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Well...
What use is it if he got the image of a biased polonophobe? Who will regard his books as valuable works of history (besides Poles that is)?
Oh and Davies is by far not the only one!
Only the most polonophope of them...in the GDR we called those "government historians"...presenting a view of history as the government liked! But nobody took them seriously.
Jan Gross for example is also a popular historian (well known in the West) who too wrote about polish history.
So it isn't the "awakening of interest about Poland" per se, it's the kind of history which is written what counts, isn't it.
I am no great fan of Davies' later books because of his sloppy editing but Norman Davies did keep interest in Poland alive in the "West" when most westerrn academics were not really publishing anything about Poland.
Well...
What use is it if he got the image of a biased polonophobe? Who will regard his books as valuable works of history (besides Poles that is)?
Oh and Davies is by far not the only one!
Only the most polonophope of them...in the GDR we called those "government historians"...presenting a view of history as the government liked! But nobody took them seriously.
Jan Gross for example is also a popular historian (well known in the West) who too wrote about polish history.
So it isn't the "awakening of interest about Poland" per se, it's the kind of history which is written what counts, isn't it.
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies#Criticism
Yes, one Davies quote won't be enough!
Definitely not enough!
No objective historian here...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies#Criticism
...Some colleagues have accused Davies of being an opinionated and biased Polonophile[5] who strives to give the most charitable interpretation towards Poland's actions in Polish-Russian, Polish-Jewish, Polish-Ukrainian or Polish-German conflicts.[5] In particular, some historians, most vocally Lucy Dawidowicz[6] and Abraham Brumberg,[7]....
...In 1986, Dawidowicz's criticism of Davies' historical treatment of the Holocaust was cited as a factor in a controversy at Stanford University in which Davies was denied a tenured faculty position for alleged "scientific flaws"....
Yes, one Davies quote won't be enough!
Davies holds a number of honorary titles and memberships, including honorary doctorates from the universities of the Jagiellonian University (since 2003), Lublin, Gdańsk and Warsaw (since 2007), memberships in the Polish Academy of Learning (PAU)
On December 22, 1998, President of Poland - Aleksander Kwaśniewski awarded him the Grand Cross (1st class) of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Poland.
Definitely not enough!
No objective historian here...
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
No, I ask you!
There should be another source to find on the net besides Davies (who is a tad to biased concerning Poland anyhow for my taste).
take it up with Davies if you wish
No, I ask you!
There should be another source to find on the net besides Davies (who is a tad to biased concerning Poland anyhow for my taste).
Bratwurst Boy
9 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
Well..if that is enough for you to be proud of it...it's fine by me! :)
I won't discuss this then anylonger...(It wouldn't be enough for me!)
Well..if that is enough for you to be proud of it...it's fine by me! :)
I won't discuss this then anylonger...(It wouldn't be enough for me!)
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
I would like to see some evidence for that Pan..
Because during former discussions about Kopernikus nobody could bring a hint that he ever used polish or even knew it.
here is ample evidence that he knew the Polish language
I would like to see some evidence for that Pan..
Because during former discussions about Kopernikus nobody could bring a hint that he ever used polish or even knew it.
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jul 2009
History / "GANGING UP" ON POLAND? [99]
Just backwards, religious hardcore christian talibans...who cares! :)
Bismarck paved the way to modernize a country in secularizing it.
Every modern country today is secular...
It's alone the Poles who made it into a "anti-polish germanization" (as in Posen).
Just backwards, religious hardcore christian talibans...who cares! :)
Bismarck paved the way to modernize a country in secularizing it.
Every modern country today is secular...
It's alone the Poles who made it into a "anti-polish germanization" (as in Posen).
Bratwurst Boy
8 Jul 2009
History / Gdansk and it's history with Poland [116]
But the brain, the skill, the work was not polish...
The commissions were given to these architects and builders because they were so good.
I do, great architects working on Polish commisions, not German ones.
But the brain, the skill, the work was not polish...
The commissions were given to these architects and builders because they were so good.