News / New York Post : "Polish" Death Camps and more [278]


I think you misunderstood his point. He's not saying that this would be understandable. On the contrary, he's criticizing this idea which he attributes to others. The focus of his argument is about something else entirely. He's arguing that Arab leaders were not entirely innocent in the holocaust. (Personally, I think that's also irrelevant, since we didn't return to Israel to punish the arabs, but because it was our homeland.)

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


I agree. I think we should respect the good intentions of each other's religions, recognizing that each is worshiping the Creator according to its understanding, but we shouldn't blur the differences. You can tell me that I'll burn in hell, as long as you don't burn me at the stake.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


No. I think that the place where Islam and judaism meet is the belief in the total oneness of G-d. That's why neither religion can belief in the trinity or in the idea of a son of G-d.


When I say that sometimes following Judaism can sometimes entail suffering, wars and struggle, I don't mean we want to wage a jewish jihad. What I mean is that a person or a generation is sometimes required to suffer humiliation, inconvenience or even physical danger while keeping the faith. Sometimes Jews have to struggle or fight wars to defend themselves, and they always have to struggle with the urge to give up and assimilate. In the short term it would look like the faith is failing the faithful, if you're looking for peace and quiet. But in the long term, keeping G-d's commandments brings peace to us and the world in general.

On a personal note, I have to say that I personally don't find it hard at all to live the Jewish life. I quite enjoy it. I'm talking in historic terms.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Could be. But are most non-Jews really aware of what Jews believe in? Were the pogromchicks really concerned with our view of theology? And the fact is that some of the most terrible cases of anti-semitism happened in countries where Jews were not religious and wanted nothing more than to assimilate, like Germany. What's more - there are religions that believe the most outrageous things and yet no one bothers them. And that's because they don't live scattered among other nations.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Not all religions are about the same thing. Some are about achieving personal tranquility. Not Judaism. Judaism, in my opinion, is about making the earth a holy place where mankind recognizes its creator. Achieving this will bring world peace and people being good to each other. But the process of reaching this state may include suffering and wars and struggle. So in any given generation the best path to take is not necessarily one of peace and tranquility. You have to look at the long term picture.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]



You're both right. We didn't want to assimilate and that creates tension. But from our point of view we had no choice: We were thrown out of our homeland by the Romans and we saw this as a temporary glitch in history. We still considered the land of israel as our homeland and the situation of exile as temporary, and we believed that we were bound to live by the Torah wherever we are and that we had to maintain our identity and religion so that we wouldn't disappear in exile and never return home. It might sound crazy to you, but we did it. We paid a heavy price, but we still did it.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

Drinking rights!? Since when was that ever a Jewish issue?
I'll be sure to get over there one day and try out the bars.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

I think the reason that Jews and other immigrants did well in the US is that it's not a nation state. You can be an american if you're polish, hungarian or Jewish because there's no "american" ethnic group. But in a country like Poland that's based on polish ethnicity, a non-Pole is seen as an outsider. The more successful he is, the more people will hate him. You have to stay below the radar, and we didn't do that.


My opinion is that when a foreign ethnic group settles in any country and refuses to blend in, keeping its own religion and customs, it's going to be resented. Add to that the Church teaching that we killed Jesus, which didn't help.

Then there are the theological explanations, that G-d exiled us for our sins and caused us to be hated, and that he eventually will deliver us and bring us back to our homeland to renew our relationship with G-d and rebuild our land, and become the light unto the nations that we were meant to be. It's all in the Bible (Deuteronomy).

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


The Jewish presence in poland started in the late middle ages. At that point the nobility invited jews to settle because they filled a certain role in the medieval economy and Poland was probably the best place in Europe for Jews to live. But that was then. Just cause the nobles 600 years ago wanted Jews to run their estates doesn't mean that the ordinary Poles liked the Jews. Until independence it was less of an issue what ordinary people wanted. But once Poland became independent after WWI it mattered very much. Polish nationalists saw the Jews as a competing and problematic entity. So a lot of them used latent anti-Jewish feeling as a way to whip up support from the masses. Laws were passed limiting Jewish economic and education opportunities and there were riots. By the 1930s Jews wanted to leave but no one would take them. That's why there were still so many Jews there when the Nazis came.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


True. But Poland was where it mattered most. That's was the biggest concentration of Jews in the world. So that's why we're more aware of polish anti semitism on the 1930s than, say Canadian anti semitism.


We're aware of that. Poles who actively helped Jews are appreciated profoundly.


True. They were also in no position to be allies of the Germans either, since the germans relegated Poland to slave status. Ukrainians and Latvians, for example, were accepted as allies of germany and they were enthusiastic killers of Jews. Poland wasn't even given that option. Different Polish groups and individuals did what they did. I appreciate those who helped us. I understand those who didn't. And I don't forgive those who helped the germans. I think a lot of Israelis think that way.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

My response was specific. I don't forgive the Germans or any of their collaborators.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

That sounds christian to me.
Judaism teaches that both revenge and forgiveness are up to G-d, not us. Just because we didn't take revenge doesn't mean we forgave them.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Move on, yes. Forgive, no.


I don't know what they teach in your country, but in mine they teach that the germans (includes austrians) perpetrated the holocaust with the active help of ukrainians, lithuanians, latvians, rumanians, hungarians and vichy french. The poles are thought of in a separate class - on the one hand they were occupied and were enemies of the germans. On the other hand they were anti-jewish from before the war, benefitted from the holocaust by inheriting the property of the dead jews, and were hostile to jews who returned to their home towns after the war. So israeli kids who visit poland react to that history. There are no school trips to germany at all. Most parents would not allow their kids to go there. I wouldn't.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]


Show us the pamphlet.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

What inaccurate bile do you suppose they've been fed?

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

Of course they should. But i think the whole issue is being blown out of proportion. I know these kids too well to believe half of these stories. If any Pole was attacked by an Israeli adolescent let him bring charges against him in court.

Personally I would prefer if fewer israeli kids went to poland on class trips. Not everyone is equipped for the emotional overload.

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

OMG! I looks like there will be nothing left of poland after these ferocious groups of Israeli school girls are finished with their massive invasion. Not a brick will be left standing. How sad after all the invasions that Poland has suffered, the one that finally defeats this proud nation is a few busloads of impolite high-school kids!

News / JEW YOUTH SHOULD CLEAN UP THEIR ACT IN POLAND [420]

As to the thread title: The term is "Jewish Youth" not "Jew Youth". An important nuance.

I can't vouch for every Israeli group but I do know something about this. Three of my Israeli children (none of them "animals") participated in class trips to Poland. The experiences they described bear very little resemblance to what you people are talking about. True they have little contact with locals, just like any organized tour group on a tight schedule. True, they had security accompanying them, Polish security guards. (The girls got along with them very well.) There was some misbehaving on the plane (as any group of high-school children travelling together would do) but nothing violent. They were not told that Poles perpetrated the holocaust, and they did not act wildly in their hotels and they did not insult anyone on the street. What they did was travel to places that were important in Jewish history and of course to the camps. They stood at a place in the forest where jewish children were massacred in pits, and they sang sad songs and prayed. They walked quietly through Majdanek and Auschwitz with tears in their eyes. They spent Shabbat in Lodz trying to imagine what Jewish life was like there before the war. They had all-night discussions with their teachers and with survivors who accompanied them, talking about their confusion and moral dilemmas. These trips help young people come to terms with some very difficult questions and help them understand the sad reality of their recent history. It's a shame if some of them make trouble, and there is room for improvement in the programming, but I think these stories are very exaggerated and certainly not typical.

In short, my daughter who came back a few weeks ago, said that it was one of the most moving experiences of her life. I assure you she wasn't talking about trashing hotel rooms.

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]

It's like this:
Everyone born a Jew is born into the covenant. If that person does not follow the spiritual path, he/she is violating the covenant, but is still a Jew - meaning that the responsibility is still there. A convert chooses to undertake the terms of the covenant, but once he/she does so formally, there's no turning back, and children that she gives birth to after that will be born Jews, generation after generation.

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]


Sacred and special role for sure. But if it were only based on blood then converts would not be accepted. Yet a convert to Judaism is considered equal, legally and spiritually, to a born Jew. I'll try to explain it this way:

In ancient times, G-d made a covenant with Jacob and all of his his descendants. The agreement was we would have to follow G-d's law and worship Him alone and in turn, G-d would settle us in the Land of Canaan and give us his protection and blessings. The purpose apparently was for us to be a holy nation that would serve as an example (or as an experiment?) that would eventually be followed by the rest of the world. This agreement is unending and unlaterable as long as there are descendants of Jacob (Israel). Besides for blood descendants, anyone from any nation who identifies with this mission and accepts the burden of keeping the laws of the Torah can join the "holy people".

Now you can say this is terribly chauvinist, but this story is an integral part of western civilization, thanks to the christian religion, which spread this story to the western world. While christians tend to emphasize the failures of the Jews to live up to their special mission, no christian can deny that we were originally chosen to fulfil G-d's mission. We haven't succeeded yet, but we're still trying. And anyone born of a Jewish mother can feel privileged to be part of this, but should also feel awe at the difficulty and seriousness of trying to live life as a Jew should. Anyone not born of a Jewish mother is also welcome to join, as long as they are aware that undertaking to serve G-d as a Jew is not something to be taken lightly. For anyone who sincerely wants this, I say welcome to the gene pool.

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]

Start by asking your mother. Do you know who your mother's mother's mother was? Do you have a name, or name of a town?

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]

Prove what?

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]


I don't see anything racist or chauvinistic about this at all. The law simply determines someone's legal/religious status based on that of his mother. It states nowhere that his status as a Jew is superior or inferior to that of a non-Jew. The reason we don't marry non-Jews is not because we think they are inferior but because we have to preserve our identity and our mission. How else do you think we could maintain our identity as a scattered minority for 2000 years? As far as being anachronistic, Jews are by definition anachronistic, and proud of it.

Genealogy / Family research Plock - Marks (Markowitz etc) Family [7]

Sorry. I don't know.

Genealogy / Family research Plock - Marks (Markowitz etc) Family [7]

I don't think Jews used the "patronymic" like that (except maybe in Russia). It's just a family name.

Genealogy / Family research Plock - Marks (Markowitz etc) Family [7]

Why Marcova? If she said it was Marcowitz (in any of its various spellings) she probably knew what she was saying. They were apparently Jews so you might want to try one of the jewish geneology sites. I found an inquiry for the same name in Plock from someone in Glasgow. Maybe that was you too?

zchor.org/geoplock.htm
Scroll down the page till you see markowicz

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]


He can live his life as he sees fit. But regardless of what he does his legal standing in Jewish law is that he is a member of the tribe, with the accompanying rights (to marry another Jew, for example) and obligations (to keep the laws of the torah). But if he ignores this, then Jewish law doesn't hold him responsible because it recognizes that he was brought up as a non-Jew and can't be expected to suddenly believe in the Jewish religion. On the other hand, if he decides that he wants to marry a Jewish girl he won't have to convert, even if he was a catholic priest, because he's already a Jew.

Genealogy / Surname Łos from Białystok [28]

I never heard of a jew (ashkenazi or otherwise) named £oś.
But you might have some Jewish women among your ancestors. You might be interested to know that according to jewish law, being jewish comes from the mother. In other words, if you have only one jewish great grandmother but it's your mother's mother's mother, then you are a Jew no matter what religion or ethinicity of your male £oś ancestors.

Travel / Information Needed About Holocaust Related Travel: Krakow, Lublin, Warsaw [25]


I second that. I prayed there on my visit and it's very moving to see it come back to life. I would recommend the Eden Hotel which is around the corner from there.

History / Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose? [390]

I'm confused. "Salomon" was King David's son. "Nathan" was David's prophet. Am I listening to a discussion between two Jews here?