History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


French-Italian disputes. Brits attempting to retain a "balance" Sweden and nordic countries blocking the pipeline even more than Poland?


Yep, EU without Eastern Europe wouldnt work on principle of the countries falling into the Russia sphere of influence which creates a whooping pile of transit problems, Germany becoming a friontier, Russia being able to dictate a whole lot more than it is.

Not to mention if Poland didnt join EU it would by now be a complete total US bytch, US has no business in a European superstate so it would invest heavily here which in short term would be good for us,long term it would be bad for Europe.


Rising again. Our population will decrease by 3-5 milion into 2040s only to rise as of 2008 we're again having a positive birth rate.
efi24.com/info?itemId=76322&id=PL&rob=Dodatni-przyrost-naturalny-w-2008-r.&j=pl

At the same time German situation is absolutely catastrophic, Germany will experience the sharpest drop in population and rise in aged citizens in the whole world.

indexmundi.com/germany/birth_rate.html

More importantly a lions share of births in Germany belongs to the Turkish minority which grows explosively.

At the same time German economy will suffer because of the aging of citizens which allows for less money to buy themselves young immigrants or give financial priveliges to young families which only worsens the problem.


You should know best that no one was buddies with GB when it was a power, ever. There were just people who knew they were its bytch and those who didnt know it.


If it wasnt for Russian winter everyone would be French property untill Napo bought it from old age, if you're referring to the Landwehrs and remnants of the Prussian army that fought at Leipzing and waterloo then you were a contributor but by far not the most important or even crucial one.

As for Vienna, you helped yes but if it wasnt for Poles you'd be more toast than a French soldier who starts a war without a white flag.

There's no need for you to mention the wars where Prussians were just an unimportant helper, French-Prussian war and both WWs prove that Prussians created a powerfull war machine and i'm impressed by it, its just that they sucked as a nation.

Whats the point of having an awesome army if you cant handle peace?

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


To a point yes but none of these conflicts were so expensive to European progress as those started by Prussian Germany.


Singular people yes but people are different when in groups and individually, individually there's not much difference between you and me but as German and as a Pole we carry different customs traditions and outlooks on life.

In Russia you need to add very very low political and social awareness of an average citizen, its not because Russia is Russian but because they chose a certain path of development which would be different and possibly more positive with the Commonwealth still around.


Thats an excuse not a reason, Germany fought wars because it wanted to grow at the expense of others, there's nothing special about it, Rome did it, US does it, all imperialist countries do it but in Europe where there's so many different people so close together it doesnt work, no matter how strong or wealthy or resourcefull you are if you try to dominate Europe by force of arms you will fail, and you did.


Stop with the soul and mysticism, i'm using historical facts here, Germany wanted an empire and needed stuff it could only get via war, Poland to a certain point in history was getting the same thing in a completely peacefull manner, and people were happy to oblige us too!

After a while we started to turn this cultural sharing into exploitation and thats when the trouble begun.


To be more specific it was the continuation of the dysfunctional nation Prussia created, people who just couldnt cope with defeat, but with Commonwealth WW1 itself would be unlikely so there would be no WW2 as well.


12 Years of madness? The madness started with the partitioning of Poland and then just got bigger, people could write off Poland since it was far away and did not influence their lives directly and just let Prussia grow and grow and eventually fail, but like all militaristic states Prussian Germany would go out with a bang.


Completely different scenarios, you brought ethnicity and culture to the business in a much greater degree.


You cant take me seriously because you're a German chauvinist and everything that threatens your picture of a proud powerfull Germany you will reject immidiately but nobody is perfect so i'll live with you not threating me seriously :)


And Europe killed itself directly because there was Germany and Russia in a shape they were, if the Commonwealth was there as a strong healthy state neither Germany nor Russia would even enter such a nasty state of affairs since its the absence of Poland that triggered such interactions.


But its not anymore, why? We're all the same as nations and states after all :)))


And you're dying out, afraid of self assertion after what you did in WW2 and slowly declining into a permanent secondary role untill taken over by Turks.

Wait sorry its a temporary setback and you're going to have your "up" again, in 30 years when half of your nation is 50 years old and your border cities are settled by French and Poles.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Napoleon was a great commander but a pathetic politician, every powerfull state would have to fall and Europe be his, if Poland remained a power into the 19th century he would sooner or later attack it, also embargoing Russia at Napoleons behest would be stupid, antagonizing close neighbours in the interestes of a geographically distant power is never a bright idea.


Russia was more or less unified in 15th century and it didnt matter, Russia would remain a culturally and economically backwater state if not for Peter the Great and Peters reforms were shaped by Sweden, he was a man hard to defeat but easy to influence, if Poland would remain strong he'd be the ideal reformator of Russia into what benefitted both Russians and us.

News / KRAUTS RESUME POLE-BASHING [60]


The cvnts like you are a plague here, people half of whom aint even Polish and you intentionally design topics to incite controversy and bad air.

First of all while the Mayor of Goerlitz appears to be a pro Nazi we have another German Frank Gottschlisch who's outraged with an anti-Polish campaign report it to the authorities and the article clearly states that German citizens will assist their Polish neighbours in pulling that crap off.

Go die under a bridge along with the rest of Harrys Sjams and other human trash.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


Absolutely, there's nothing but assumptions in a thread like that. As for why? We werent really interested in expanding into Germany, despite your claims of German power back then if unified Commonwealth really had any expansionist plans for Germany in 15th-17th century it would act, Poland was interested in seeding its culture in the Eest and untill we started wearing our asses higher than our noses we were quite succesfull.

Russia unified over wars with Sweden and if we assume Poland reformed and stayed strong Sweden will get spanked long before it sees the Russian border so unless Commonwealth initiates a major world war there wont be one.


Absulutely which is why i said that "if someone got a brain" and offered far reaching autonomy to eastern minorities.


Nope, German national identity was born then, unification was done by military/diplomatic means by Prussia, while unification would still happen who did it defined its nature, Prussian Germany was a militaristic state bound for conflict, Austrian Germany would be quite different.

For one Austrian Germany would be oriented for expansion in the Balkans and Italy as easier grounds and natural fields of interaction for Austria which would mean an eventuall clash with Poland or France is far less likely.


2 World Wars say i'm right, if you want to get into specifics, raising an entire nation in a militaristic fashion in which its unable to cope with defeat constitutes this darker nature, nothing mystical about it, historical and cultural heritage if you will.


Newscast to you, Russia is barbaric, the goverment belittles and exploits its own people and they still follow it, we could go on.

The fact is Poland was civilizationally superior to Russia untill the 18th century when it became a craphole of the universe, our interactions with Russia before and after our invasions of it were always much more in depth on the cultural level and we could potentially excert a much greater positive influence over it, especially that it would be our business to have a good neighbour.


Really? Then why did Poland fell and Germany rose to power? Why USA is the superpower while Czech republic is a meaningless little state? Countries and nations are different, their potentians are different which is why their history is different.


Probably yes but the topic assumes it never fell which means we have to rule out several mistakes like opressing Ukrainians or creating a veto institution and given how hugely succesfull it was when it was still well ruled its likely the Commonwealth would transform into some other form of multinational state and thats a step away from an EU.

Today after 300 years since Germany ascended in Europe no one trusts anyone and you literally have to buy countries into EU, thats not a good legacy at all, graduall cultural and economic assimilation would be much better and Poland was much more capable in that aspect (untill we f*cked up that is).


A step in the direction of a EU that is.

History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]


If the Commonwealth never got into the crisis of 1700-72 it basically means that there would be no Germany, Austria or Russia in the shape and situation that caused WW1.

In fact if we played our cards right back then the whole Europe would be MUCH better off.

Russia would become much more civilized by principle of our influence since our ties with it were stronger and more in depth than their later ties with Western Europe.

Branderburgia would never get our lands, never turn into Prussia and in effect WW1 (and consequently WW2) would never happen.

Versaiiles treaty in which Germans demanded the lands the've taken from Poland in the first place would be perceived as a joke and while Poznań would still be in Poland sadly i'd be living in Germany now (Wrocław).


Untill the partitions Poland was an exceptionally succesfull multicultural state (mainly because all cultures barring Jews were European) if someone finally got his brains together and started treating the Ukrainians with dignity, offer them a fair slice of pie no one would ever want to leave.

The only reason our eastern provinces rebelled is because we treated them like sh*t so instrad of a stable frontier we got 200 years of constant mess.


There would be no Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia in the first place.

All in all Germany not being able to excersize its darker part of nature (and being unified under Austria it might even never sprout imperialistic or nazi tendencies) against a stronger neighbour would be much more enjoyable to live with, no world wars would happen, Russia might even grow up to be a normal country and since powerfull Poland would have a much easier job at putting down communism the revolution was also unlikely.

Napoleon is a bit tricky, he might or might not take over Poland since the guy was an absolute god of war but if the Commonwealth would be succesfull all the way to the 19th century then he wouldnt be able to hold on to it and neighbours wouldnt be able to exploit such a temporary collapse.

All in all Europe would probably be much better off, it might even pull off an EU much easier since Poland was historically much more benevolent a power than Germany, no negative sentiments or historical luggage would be there, Poland was also the earliest democracy so that would have spread.

We, the Europe would be much much better off if Commonwealth never fell, there would be less wars, more cash and less bad memories to block integration, we might even be much closer to an European superstate by now.

But we f*cked ourselves so there, thinking what might have been only gets me bloody depressed.

History / World War II Begins... 70 Years Ago [8]

I know i'm searching for it, found several articles where its mentioned but i cant find any details, i've contacted a friend from hist mag to help out.

History / World War II Begins... 70 Years Ago [8]


Absolutely, which is why the officers who proposed the planned reasoned to start it in 1926, they said flat open that modernisation in Polish case needs to take course over 15 years since there was no money or industry to get things done quickly.


Major Grzegorzewskis plan is a historical fact, for example Poland was supposed to produce 20 tanks monthly which is a tiny amount by any standards but over 10 years it gives you 2000 machines.

We wouldnt be able to replace our losses the way truly industrialized countries did but we could initially defend our borders and maybe even defeat Germany.


Wouldnt know about NWO but our involvement in US affairs is a mistake allright.

History / World War II Begins... 70 Years Ago [8]

I mean that Poland doesnt spend enough on its military and Tusk cut our budget further, alliances are worthless if we cant defend ourselves, paper never shot anyone.

Little known fact in history is that in 1926 it was proposed that Poland roll on an extensive armaments programme which would see us at least on par with the Wehrmacht in 1939 but politicians chose to limit spending believing that we can beat the Germans with the same kind of army we beat the Russians.

prawica.net/node/12977

The article is an over-dramatisation but the fact is that the figures proposed by the 1926 programme were mind boggling, if our politicans back then showed hindsight in 1939 we would be a military beast, instead they did what they do now, nothing.

History / World War II Begins... 70 Years Ago [8]

And today our goverment cuts the already pathetic military spending.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


But you're entitled to an opinion, for example we can argue whether Poland would have beaten Germany in 1919-20 or not, we can argue about aspects of historical facts but we cannot argue about facts themselves.

Dry facts are, as far as territory Germany lost to Poland more than it lost in the whole of WW1, a major province, a major city and a huge chunk of its population.

Also a fact is that it did so based directly on an armed action by Polish military.

And now we can argue whether Poland emerging and swallowing up parts of Germany, Ukraine and Belarus was a minor or a major thing but facts are unconditional and its hard to discuss when you're unaware or disregarding said facts to suit your opinion based on personal views rather than historical knowledge.

You have an opinion so tell me how did the West made Poland possible when it was the Poles who actually re-conquered their own country often disregarding the West? Did the West give anything to Poles or did they win it back themselves?

The problem with you as with so many morons who come here with an opinion is that it doesnt matter what the history was, You have a view, You have an opinion and you're ready to keep expressing it regardless of how history went.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


First you call the Greater Poland uprising the Poznan Uprising, then you mistake dates, then you proceed to issue opinions that go in stark contrast with history.

Either learn and then issue opinions or enter a thread with questions only.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Not untill you go read a history book, its impossible to discuss with someone who has opinions since there's nothing to discuss with you about.


Not all Germans supported communism which is why there was this november fuss in the first place.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Go learn instead of posting, Germans occupied France using third rate troops.


From Prussian, Austrian and Russian armies in which they served, again you have zero historical knowledge and yet you keep talking.

Read about Piłsudski.


With or without Blue Army? Probably around a milion.


The one confiscated from the occupying forces? Produced or inherited while taking over the arsenal? I mean those 800.000 troops werent exactly armed with sticks.


Yup, you're forming an opinion without actually knowledge.


Actually WW1 prevented Germany from any further bloodshed even without the revolution their armed forces were too weak to do anything in terms of regular warfare.

14.000 Freikorps? What were they supposed to do with the Polish issue? Blitz Warsaw with their mighty army? They'd get covered in hats.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


France 1940-43.


Not as biased as yours.


So were 15 year olds in Berlin in 1945 it still doesnt make them a good force.


How about you stop being a biased cvnt and go read the wiki, in 1919 Germany had a total of 400.000 troops available to them, grand total.

The army that served during WW1 was resolved and most of them were unwilling or incapable of serving because of battle fatigue, the fact that they were fed up with fighting and that is why there was a communist uprising in Germany which became nearly a civil war.


Without negotiations Poland still had nearly a milion troops within months while Germany had 400.000 and an unstable internal situation with communists trying to seize power the worst that could happen was Germany engaging Poland in a full war and losing.


The shortest way did, the point is moot however since the German army disintegrated within weeks.


Again read the timeline, Germans were prepared for a full strike long before West brought them to heel, they did not attack the reason is obvious.


Amen, it had nothing to do with Versaiiles and everything with the country being drained and having communist issues.


I agree that there were some divisions but these guys didnt have high morale, they were some of the strongest supporters of communism.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


In 1919 and You must read up to know anything on the subject before you post.


Germany had 400.000 troops available to them in 1919 before the Versailles bogged them down, at this time it was a maximum they could equip and set in the line, they were preparing to send all of them to the Greater Poland.


As of 1919 they lost almost all the land they took from Poland during the partitions which was one of the larger and wealthier provinces along with a major city, the war was effectively over and Poland emerging and taking a huge chunk of what Germans considered as theirs was a pretty burning problem.


Yes it was and its because it was called a Greater Poland uprising, because Poles were attempting to take back the entire province.

To have some idea how much territory Germans were about to lose here you are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wielkopolskie_(EE,E_NN,N).png


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_Uprising_(1918%E2%80%931919)

Check out the timeline you can ask any Pole or German interested in history whether the events are accurate.

I can give you some sources in Polish but i have a feeling you'll pull a "Its a Polish version of history" even though there's no alternative one even in Germany.


You're underastimating it because you're an uneducated troglodite, first of all it was an uprising that took over an entire large province and it was not a "Poznań uprising" secondof all it lasted from 1918 to 1919 and Germans even moved their HQ to Kolobrzeg in preparation for a full blown assault.

The loss of Greater Poland was a much more painfull blow to Germany than the loss of WW1.

In the west they lost a lot of people and temporarily a small region, in the east they lost a major province with one of the largest cities and had the route to East Prussia cut off, not to mention the loss of an much third partition area.

In the West Germany was losing a war, in the East Germany was losing a country.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Who says it was heroism? It was an opportunity.


Quite a lot really, they've been preparing for a full scale offensive.


You mean an idiot?:)

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

Yes Southern and pigs fly, how about you go back to how Poles invaded Russia threads?:)

By your suggestion Germans were incompetent idiots who kept their best troops in an occupied country and sent the second rate troops to the most important theatre? Good job:)

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


We're talking about the garrisons of old men and kids running Ukraine and Russia that would have to return piecemeal through Poland which had legionnaries and veterans from both armies by the thousands?

They'd have to get through Poland first and given that a much better equipped and organised Soviets did not the Germans wouldnt get even near Poznań.

Also take into account that German army was not Wehrmacht of 1939, it used the same weapons and tactics as everyone else, was broken as far as morale is concerned and these were garrison units, every soldiers who knew how to hold a gun was in the West.

Even if you'd have all the Germans return via Czechoslovakia they still wouldnt be able to move as one organized milion strong force since they occupied a huge area, add to this the fact that they were no longer resupplied (Poland in the way again) and you basically get a 1920 war all over again except that instead of Soviet Russia you get a weak post WW1 Germany.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

Since we're on educating me i'll do the same for you.

The reason Germans could not defeat the uprising was because at the same time there was something called "German revolution" aka November revolution, by Januray Germans already lost and if you're referring to German army and Grenzeshutz stopping the attacks its because Poles were already controlling almost entire Poznań province which they first took from said German army.

The reason Germans stopped was two fold, first they were very aware that they're unable to take it back by force (they had enough time to do it by then and failed) and second Germans were very aware of the forces forming deeper within Poland, post war Germany was in no shape to fight Poland (especially since Poland popped a near milion strong army out of nowhere within months).

Germans did prepare to use all forces against Greater Poland except that in 1919 the Reiswechr numbered 400.000 men which represented the maximum of German mobilisation capacity directly after World War 1, at the same time Poles had 800.000 men so eventual war could end only one way.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

Yeah in about 20 years when we have the economy of todays Germany why not.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

No? No Africans, no Muslims, as for Eastern countries a brain drain is fully acceptable when we can afford it and need it (which is in about 20 years).

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]

Support unemployed Poles in UK for example (and make their return possible) but after staying in UK i'll be the first one screaming wolf if some idiot decides to open our borders like that.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


I'm completely happy to pay for immigrants abroad. I'm unhappy with opening our borders like UK did, i think its stupid, if our people to capitalize on stupid decisions abroad let them but no need to copy them here.


There's no place for opinions in our discussion, there's historical facts and dates, Poland freed itself months before Versaiiles took place, you can think otherwise but that amounts to people thinking WW2 didnt happen, you can have an opinion but historical facts are written already.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


You mean the same Germans who got disarmed by Poles before the treaty or do you mean the same Poles who raised a nearly milion strong army and beaten the largest standing military force?

Warsaw was free in November 11, Versailles covered Poland in June, Poland was free weeks before the West even started acting, Germans couldnt deal with Piłsudski because after WW1 they didnt have the military to fight Poles Versailles or not so we're back to square one, West had nothing to do with Poland reganing its independence and Germans were a complete non factor as a post war country.

To be specific Poles announced independence on 7th of October, Piłsudski returned on 10th of November (Germans released him in hopes that he could restore order which their armed forces failed to do).

So again the Versailles only confirmed and acknowledged what was already achieved as for Germans if they tried something before or after the Soviet war they'd just lose.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


The point is the West only acknowledged the existing state of affairs, after the war with the Soviets Poland was untill about 1930 absolutely dominant militarily in regards to both Soviets and Germany so its obvious that Wilson wouldnt ask the Poles to get back to being occupied since he'd got a finger.

Now if you said that Western powers acknowledged Polish indepence and helped Poland maintain political legitimacy on the international level then yes i agree but in regards to independence no one gave it to Poles, they took it by force of arms themselves.


Acknowledgment, unless we're saying that WW1 created an enviroment for that kind of action which is obviously true.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Theoretically yes, practically no, if you were some low class, medium noble no one would give a crap about your veto, only influential people would be heard.

Veto in itself was a problem but the larger one was that the kings were elected from weaker less wealthy families and didnt have a large backing (Sobieski p*ssed on veto on the regular basis but he was the last king with such a backing and even he lost the civil war meant to establish regular monarchy in Poland).

@Marek.

I dont even read Harry or Sjam anymore, there's a chance that The Other is not a sock account of one of them though and that he genuinely is ignorant of our history.


Mainly because they suspected him to a be a German proxy.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Absolutely agree, the phenomenon saw itself increase from just nobles and some citizens in 1772 to the entire nation in the 1919.


I thought you didnt know history, now i can see you just have a bone to pick with Poland.

Poles disarmed Germans without any help, then proceeded to kick Ukrainians untill they stopped moving and then proceeded to beat Soviet Russia all by their merry selves, Britain, France and USA could do nothing but acknowledge Polish independence since Poles just beat the living crap out of everyone who wanted to take it.

We were granted nothing, we took everything ourselves and i'm lost how can you say that France, UK or US did anything for our independence, they just acknowledged the state of affairs as is since they had no real choice.

News / The most spectacular errors in Polish politics. [264]


Of course not each and every but a crushing majority.


Its not, if it is please point out which bit is innacurate, the point is that Polish romantic patriotism during the partitions era is absolutely unpararelled in terms of scale and intensity.


Completely different situation, not only was Portugal fully occupied for only 60 years as opposed to Polands 100+ but it was a dynastic issue, no one tried to wipe Portugals culture and national identity off the map, Poland at the same time was occupied by three superpowers two of which were interested in eradicating Polish herigate, i dont really see any comparison whatsover, in scale or scope.


Bullsh*t again i'm not sure whether you're completely ignorant of our history or just show bad will, the majority of Poles wanted to live independent in a sovereign Poland and were ready to go to war without blinking an eye, how about you read up on how many volunteers did the Polish army get in 1920 or how in 1830 there was no gold and silver in Warsaw because peace loving Poles melted down family heritage to fund the army.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Uprisings

several Polish leaders were arrested during a general strike of about 140,000 mine workers.

Thats your inteligentsia? 140k polish miners.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War_in_1920

The Polish forces grew from approximately 100,000 in 1918 to over 500,000 in early 1920. In 20 August, 1920, Polish army had reached the strength of 737,767, so there was rough numerical parity between the Polish army and the Soviet forces acting against it.

There wasno draft at least half a milion of those are volunteers.

You are right in that initial uprisings were backed primarily by nobility only but 1830 one had a significant city backing and the silesian uprisings, the de-arming of occupying forces and the war of 1920 were supported by the entire nation.

In fact it shows something counter to your claims, if anything Poles got more determined as time passed rather than settling in.

You may call it what you like but Poland taking back its independence post WW1 shows integrity unseen in history worldwide, no other country managed such a feat against such odds, ever.

News / What needs to happen in the world so that Poland and Russia form alliance? [297]


Goverment indoctrination got to you.