History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Bratwurst Boy

Well, Berlin was to us, more than anything else in the Eastern Bloc, a symbol to us. A symbol of division as nowhere else this was more clear than in Berlin. So most of us went to that city. Not only because of this division, the Wall and all, but also because it's a cool city as well :)

>^..^<

M-G (if East-Berlin was a zoo, I wonder if Bratwurst would live in das Affenhaus - Monkeyhouse?)

News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]


Nope, Klaus is waiting for the result of a court case that 17 Senators of Czechia have started (for the second time) in order to see if the Lisbon Treaty is legal or not. The first time it was declared legal by (I think) the Supreme Court of Czechia, so they tried again. If the Court rules again that it's fully legal, Klaus will ratify the treaty. Should happen before the end of this month.

Edit: I just read that indeed there is a thing about the Sudeten-Germans. But it wasn't about reparations, but in case they would re-claim their lands after being driven out of Czechia after the war. So I'm not really sure what he really wants. He should just sign and stop nagging.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Nudism? We had that too, but it was more aimed against the morals over here. In Germany they called it FKK (Freie Körper Kultur - Free Body Culture). Surely they didn't do this in Poland, as I seem to remember that not so long ago it was an issue when two women were sunbathing topless on a beach in PL...

I was thinking about little sabotages (to the system?), nothing serious, just enough to cause some disruption without the danger of being arrested...

>^..^<

M-G (Good Morning)

Maybe I can ask an additional question: after Communism was gone, when came the point for you personally when you really felt: "yes, I'm free"? What I mean is: when the euphoria of the Revolution had died down, when came the moment that you felt this sensation? When came the point that it was "back to business as usual", but you felt it was in a different form or shape?

Maybe I'm asking this in the wrong form, if I do, I will certainly be notified of it :) and I will rephrase it. Right now it'll have to do like this.

>^..^<

M-G (grumpy, in need of some good ol' cafeine)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

The first time I ever entered the Eastern Bloc was when I went to Berlin. You could get special passes which granted you access to Berlin, but not to the rest of the DDR. There was a special train that stopped nowhere between (I seem to remember that it was) Hannover and Berlin. If you went by car, there was only one highway you could take and there were no exits, if there were, they were blocked. And you were not allowed to stop anywhere. If you had to pee, you had to wait until you were within the city limits of West Berlin.

Anyway, on that first trip I was actually kinda suprised that the DDR country-side looked the same as the GDR country-side. After all, for all we knew it was grey and full of soldiers. So, that was the first surprise. Second one was the huge difference between West- and East Berlin. The West was a full fledged "Western" City, neon lights and all and the East was kinda grey indeed, with not much restoration being done but with the distinct advantage that they had left the old buildings (that were still standing after the war) intact as much as pssbl. Later on I heard that this was because they didn't care about it, but still, it gave you a glimpse of what Berlin must've looked like. It was relatively easy for a tourist to get into East Berlin: you went to checkpoint Charly and you paid a certain amount and then you were allowed for a few hours into East Berlin. Over there I learned that communism apparently makes ppl apathic. Not that the ppl I saw in East Berlin were zombies or something, but they just didn't seem to care, yet another difference with West Berlin. Another thing was: we as tourists were not allowed to buy anything in East Berlin. I thought that was weird at the time, but those Russian soldiers looked impressive enough to adhere to the rule. Don't know why that was, maybe because they didn't have anything back then?

Edit: I was just thinking: since we've now established that there was major resistance in several countries of the Eastern Bloc, how about "civil disobedience"? What were the "little" things that ppl did to resist?

>^..^<

M-G (does have fond memories of Berlin)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Can I have some links on that? Some proof? Thanks.

Some more anti-communism prop:



>^..^<

M-G (nah)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

I guess I'll throw in some more anti-communist propaganda. This time it's from the 60's (not sure though, but it says so) and the worst thing about this vid is that it wasn't intended as a joke, although it seems that way. Have a look for yourself.

>^..^<

M-G (strange)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


I know, I started the topic myself. But if you guys want to continue over who got the most Soviet troops within their borders, then a little Africa wouldn't hurt either. And besides, it served as an example, nothing Catholic-phobic.

>^..^<

M-G (tsk!)

Life / WHAT DO YOUNG POLES SEE IN RAP CRAP? [63]

beckski

Thanks, Becksi :) Most of my tunes are actually like "Ride With You", will post some more in due time.

>^..^<

M-G (thanks!)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Thank you Seanus. I want to see more examples of anti-West propaganda and ppl's views on Westerners.

<^..^<

M-G (and that's a fact, man!)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Hm, opinions about JP2 are strongly divided. I understand that in PL he is regarded as a hero and first Pole among Poles. In Ireland he is pretty much adored too, but in many other countries he is not so popular as he did some stuff that could be regarded as not helping progress, to put it mildly.

For example, a lot of aide workers in Africa were not too happy about the fact that he undid in 15 minutes what they have been working on for years and years. Like they put it: "You spent years of trying to get the ppl to use condoms to prevent more babies being born and to stop the spreading of AIDS. And along comes pope JP2 and tells them that the usage of condoms will land you in Hell. Promptly everybody stops using condoms and we can start anew." It's just an example, but JP2 wasn't that highly popular over here. We called him actually "Popie Jopie" (Pope who wants to be popular - freely translated).

>^..^<

M-G (beeedaaaankt for die bluuuumehn - JP2's standard line in Dutch during the Easter Mass each year)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Grzegorz_

Greg, Bratwurst has a good point in saying that the Revolution was made pssbl thanks to Perestroika and Glasnost. While these two may not have invented the Revolutions, they surely created the environment in which a Revolution was more likely to succeed than it had before that.

>^..^<

M-G (honour where it is due)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


I don't think I agree with you on this part, Dariusz, at least not from a Western point of view. The West regarded Hungary and Czechoslowakia as the most "Western" countries of the Eastern Bloc; they were the easiest to get visas for (we basically had to wait for months before getting a visa to Eastern Europe, but to CZ and HU it just took a few weeks and they were much more leniant). Poland, sorry to say that, wasn't really regarded as a "Western" country. Many ppl looked down upon it as being poor and dirty at the time. If there was any sympathy for Eastern-Blokes, it would be for the Czechoslovaks and the Hungarians.

However, none could match Yugoslavia, but then again, Yugo was considered "one of us", even though it was communistic at the time. All through the 60's, 70's and 80's there was mass-tourism from the West in Yugoslavia. It was cheap and it was beautiful, had everything: beach, mountains, culture and the like. It was very popular, at least in Holland, as a destination. Ok, there sometimes was a bit of a hassle at the border, but it was nothing that a few Deutschmarks couldn't fix.

Edit: CZ was generally regarded as the country that matched us mostly. They were (in our opinion) the most advanced, peaceful ppl of the entire Eastern Bloc. Czech cars (Skoda) were sold in the West long before Lada came onto the market.

>^..^<

M-G (went to Yugo a few times as a teenager)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Ik know, but I wasn't telling you, but the other readers ;) I was trying to help you, tsk!

>^..^<

M-G (grumpy Bratwurst)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Indeed, forgot to mention that. Also interesting when Herbert reads out loud the statement of the US government concerning Katyn...


Well, the DDR was an artificial state and it's sole raison d'être was communism. Plus, they were Germans, the former enemy AND they formed the direct border to Western Germany. And just about everybody agreed that should it come to a clash, it would most likely be in Germany. So it's quite logical that the Soviets kept more troops there than anywhere else...

>^..^<

M-G (relaxed)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Some US anti-commie movie from the 50's

Herbert A Philbricks hosts this. Read the description:

Herbert A. Philbrick hosts this amazing anti-Commie propaganda film from the 1950s. Philbrick was a salesman who was recruited by the FBI to infiltrate the Communist Party and report back to J. Edgar Hoover. After the FBI pulled him out in the late '40s so he could testify in a Smith Act trial (the verdicts of many of which were later deemed unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court), Philbrick wrote a book about his experiences hunting Commies.

>^..^<

M-G (it is comprehensable to be immoral, but it's horrible to be unmoral - Herbert, Herbert, told you this would happen when you drink too much of that Wodka)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

time means

Yeah, we heard something like that too. But of course this was due to the fact that these were "unreliable" ppl in general, according to the official sources.

I just have to remark that the Soldier's Handbook I got was different than the ones the normal drafted Soldiers got, because I got the officer's version (I as drafted to become a Sergeant) and I guess this version tended to be a bit harsher as officer's were expected to follow the rules more diligently than soldiers.

Unfortunately I couldn't get a picture of it, but the next chapter contained a picture of a white license plate with in the upper left corner (of course, left) a small image of the USSR flag. I always thought this was the true Soviet license plate, until I learned that license plates in the USSR were black with white letters and numbers. I guess they just made it up back then. After all, a black and white license plate wouldn't attract that much attention; a white one with a USSR flag on it definitively would!

So, what was I supposed to do in the (highly unlikely) event that I spotted a car with such license plates on a Dutch road? I was allowed to stop the car by all means. If I was driving a vehicle myself, I was allowed to drive it off the road and if I wasn't driving, but carrying a weapon, I was allowed to flatten the right-front wheel (it mentioned very specifically the right front-wheel, don't know why, but they did) by shooting ONE bullet from my weapon (if I needed more bullets to do so, I had to fill in a certain form), flattening the tire, hence causing it to stop. Alternatively, if the car was approaching, I had to go stand on the road to stop the vehicle. Once the vehicle stopped, I then had to approach the car with the utmost caution and, depending on the number of ppl in the car, was allowed to hold my weapon with the safety off. I think it was if there were more than two ppl seated in the car, I was allowed to do that. In case of two or one person, I was not allowed to bear my weapon. I then had to ask the ppl for their papers, what they were doing here, where they were going and what they intended to do. In case they planned something mischievous, I was to arrest them and bring them to the nearest army base. As it was most likely they were up to no good, it basically came down that I was supposed to arrest them. However, in case of a friendly visit, I was to let them go (gee, they would get far with a flat tire or with their car broken down along the side of the road), but immediately inform the commander of the nearest army camp. Also I was supposed to follow them and intervene should the intentions not be so harmless as they claimed. And this was usually the case with these ppl. So in short, some shots or arrests were always taking place, should it so happen that a soviet car, with no efforts to disguise the fact that it was in fact a soviet car, managed to break through checkpoint charly, proceeded unknowningly through the entire widt of Western Germany and ended up being stopped by me on a back road of rural Holland.

You may laugh about this now (and in fact I do now too), but at the time I had to study this by heart and I got a test about it. If I would've failed, this would mean storm-training for two days and after that a new test. And if you know what a storm training is, then you darn made sure you knew this by heart :S

>^..^<

M-G (two days of crawling for miles through mud and water, not being allowed to lift your head higher than 40 or 50 cm)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

One instruction in my Soldier's Handbook that I got when I was conscripted for the army was following: "Pay attention: Russians and other inhabitants of the Eastern Bloc may look like us, but in fact they are very different. They will deceive you where they can in order to fulfill their goal: a communist Europe and throwing us into submission. I order to achieve this goal, they will lie, steal and even murder. These ppl are highly recognisable (enter pictures of a peasant in a uniform and of a obviously deranged individual) by their general signs of low intelligence (signs: low fore head, dark and gloomy eyes, monobraw, abundance of bodyhair, and a general bad mooded look on their face) and threatcherousness (did I write that correctly?). They will try to seduce you either with alcohol or with female beauty, but remember, giving in to those temptation is an act of treason and if it doesn't cause your death, it will be dealt with in Militairy Court!

Note: since it's been a while since I was in the army, I don't exactly remember everything the book said, but I remember this part very clearly.

In hindsight it's ridiculous of course. I think the book was written in the 50's or early 60's.

>^..^<

M-G (next I will post what I was supposed to do when I would spot a soviet car running around freely in the Netherlands or Western Germany, should I happen to be on manoevres there)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

southern

Wasn't Greece part of the "Cow-deal" between Stalin and Churchill? "You get Greece, but then we want Poland?"

But indeed, the Greek Civil War was a pretty nasty story, yes.

SeanBM

The Dutch viewed Ireland as a place to make hols, the "recreational area" of Western Europe. This was in stark contrast with the situation in Northern Ireland, which made the headlines nearly every week in NL. Nearly every Dutch felt truly sorry and deeply sympathized with the ppl in the area.

I have to hand it to the Irish, they were the only country in Europe where fascism or Nazism never got a hold. The Blueshirts, the Irish Nazi movement, never got more members than about 100.

>^..^<

M-G (made some more coffee)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

SeanBM

It's funny, but we in the Netherlands never regarded Ireland as a political entity. This is with all due respect, mind you!

The idea we had about Ireland and the Irish was that they were a jolly good bunch, only interested in the beauty of nature, making music and drinking Guinness.


In 1981, during the Solidarity strikes, we got leaflets in the mail, asking us to collect food, clothing, blankets and the like for the poor ppl in Poland. After all they were Catholics too (the leaflet was printed in the South of the Netherlands, a predominantly Catholic area) who were surpressed and nearly were dying of hunger and cold. My village (95% Catholics, together with a neighbouring village the only two places in my part of the country which was mainly Protestant) managed to collect about 4 trucks of the above mentioned and they joined in a convoy to Poland. I actually never heard back if it arrived in PL and if the goods were distributed among the ppl there. Anybody knows something about this? This is early 80's, so if there is anybody who knows about convoys from NL to PL in that timeframe, I would like to hear it.

>^..^<

M-G (coffee is good)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Well, we didn't know what went down at the time. We also wanted to be rebellious, do something that would shock our parents. You know how teenagers are. And since our own world was boring, or that's how we perceived it, what else can you expect when there's this vast, grey area a few hundred km away and to which everybody reacts when you mention it...

Bratwurst Boy

A friend of mine, who was a few years older than I was, was a member of the CPN, the Communist Party of the Netherlands. Looking back I must admit that he kinda slavish followed everything Moskau said and took it for the only truth. When Gorbi wrote his Glasnost and Perestroika, he was one of the first to buy the Dutch translation (he couldn't even read Russian). Why? Not because he was in favour of change (he probably didn't even know what was in the book anyway), but because it came from the Soviet Union. Later on he adapted the idea of change as Gorbi had described it.

>^..^<

M-G (more coffee)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

SeanBM

Check your PM, Sean ;)

>^..^<

M-G (coffee!)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Bratwurst Boy

Of course, that was the case where I lived too. That's why I added the thing about money to my post. Yet you felt that it was creeping up in the consciousness of the ppl. More and more you got seemingly "harmless" songs (in Dutch) about the situation. But indeed day to day life continued and little private things of course prevailed. Maybe it was just me as well as I used to read an aweful lot of newspapers, books, magazines, etc. All I was trying to say that we were being influenced as well. And I sometimes feel that ppl from the former Eastern Bloc think we weren't. But I have to sort my thoughts at this very moment with the help of some good old cafeine and when I have, I will get back with a post about my memories when I was in the army. In hindsight it's hilariously stupid, but at the time we took it very seriously and you could get into serious trouble land even in jail if you made fun of it.

>^..^<

M-G (hates the neighbourhood kids for making lots of racket on an early Sunday morning)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]


Of course Sean, in most cases propaganda works. Just imagine: if you hear something everywhere you go: TV, Radio, Newspapers, (hired) ppl talk about it at busstops, etc, you see billboards proclaiming it; if this is being kept up long enough, ppl will start believing. Just like we did in that we believed that those Eastern Europeans (we called them all "Russians" at the time, no matter where they came from - compare slogans like "The Russians Are Coming!") were only out to invade us, enslave us and send us to the mines in the steppes of Siberia. All because they were jealous of us. Jealous of our "freedom" (which was relatively, of course - even though we were able to say what we wanted, 1) nothing was done with your opinion and 2) if you had a very different opinion, you could expect a visit of the secret police - yes, we had one too) and jealous of our "richness".

I remember in elementary school we had a map of Europe on the wall where all the "good" countries (i.e. non-communist countries) were brightly coloured and the "bad" countries were just left grey. No details on them, just the capitals were shown in either a red square or circle. When I asked the teacher what was in those grey areas on the map, he said: "nothing. Europe is coloured and the rest is dangerous. No ppl live there".

In highschool we thought it was kinda cool, this Eastern Bloc. There you had these countries of which we only knew images that were taken with a telescopic lens and mostly had soldiers in it. We thought everybody in the East wore uniforms and everybody was equal. It seemed to us that this was so much better than the crap we had in the West: equality in the West? Don't make me laugh. If you had plenty of money, yeah, then you were a little more equal than when you didn't have any money. Freedom wasn't expensive if you had enough money to buy it. Most of us were just poor sobs to whom the idea of equality kinda appealed.

Edit: you must not forget that for the Dutch it was different than for the British or Irish: those were islands, relatively far away Holland directly borders Germany. For me, being born and raised near the German border, the Iron Curtain was only 250 km away. That made it very close, hence the propaganda was different too.

>^..^<

M-G (wanted to write more and will, but first: coffee!)

Life / WHAT DO YOUNG POLES SEE IN RAP CRAP? [63]

beckski

Just go back to the previous page in this thread ;)

>^..^<

M-G (Good Night!)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

So, it was all a big mistake then...For all we knew was that the Poles (and the other ppl from the Eastern Bloc) were just a bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs, only out to kill us and take over our possessions. It's very black and white, but that's how Western propaganda worked. Have to say though that the Western intelligentia didn't swallow it, but the average guy did. And even in early 1989 it was still very much alive.

>^..^<

M-G (had a great date with the woman he's probably going to marry)

History / Matters of Propaganda...Or: how was the West portrayed in Poland? [150]

Yes, I've heard that one. As well as the one that says that more than half of the ppl of the West are drug addicts...

We had a similar charity thing going on, collecting food, clothes and blankets for the poor Polish Catholics...

>^..^<

M-G (gotta go now)

UK, Ireland / Irish view of Poland? [17]

Well, I'm not Irish, but I've lived long enough in Ireland to be able to tell the Irish view on Poland. But I'm not really sure if you meant Poland as a country or Irish views on the Polish ppl? I guess I'll give both (as far as I hear from my Irish friends): most ppl I've met are fairly positive about Poland as a country and like to go there. However, it depends a bit on the person wether he/she likes it because of the landscapes or because of that it's so cheap over there (cheap in comparison to Ireland). One friend of mine said he and his wife went on a cycle-trip from Germany via Poland to the Baltic countries. He said that he had been approached the nicest in the Polish country side and that the landscapes were absolutely stunning, especially in Mazuria (do I spell that right?). The lakes there reminded him of Minnesota in the US (I took him there once), which also has a lot of lakes. Given his enthousiasm when he came back, I guess I have to go there some time. Other friends said they liked Zakopane, and Carpathian mountains. And others again said they were really impressed by the cities. As for myself, I've only been in Warsaw, Krakow and the obligatory Auschwitz (of course - had to see where my family perished). I must say that I wasn't really impressed by Warsaw (though the time we are talking about is early 90's - I'm sure things have changed since then), but Krakow was truly amazingly beautiful (funny, but somehow it reminded me of a German city) and Auschwitz, well, some ppl say that on some places on Earth you can feel the presence of evil and I used to laugh about that. But in Auschwitz you can actually feel the evil that has taken place there.

About Polish ppl, that's a bit different: most Irish like the Polish, mainly for two things: 1) Poles are Catholic too and like to drink, just like the Irish and 2) the huge amount of Polish ppl in Dublin brings with it the presence of Polish skleps, which finally gave the Irish the opportunity to sample a tast of European continental food. Then there is another side: Irish DON'T like the Polish because: 1) they tend to stick to themselves and except some exceptions, they don't really mingle with the locals; 2) especially in the beginning, they didn't like the Poles because they were willing to work for a lower pay than the Irish would get and now at this point in time, with the crisis and all, they complain that the Poles take away their jobs. Which is nonsense of course, Poles at first did the work the Irish didn't want to do and now there's no work left, they are willing to do those crappy jobs, but now they are taken already by Poles. For me personally, I don't mind the Poles being here, they don't threaten my job in any way and the presence of skleps came in handy as it gave me the opportunity to buy some foodstuff every now and then that reminds me of home.

Hope this was a bit what you were looking for? Thanks.

>^..^<

M-G (needs coffee)

Life / WHAT DO YOUNG POLES SEE IN RAP CRAP? [63]


This gentleman thinks the same about it, just listen:

M-G (Good Morning)

Haven't had much comments about my tunes yet...Come on guys, I don't care if you don't like it, I just want some feedback :)

>^..^<

M-G (nah)

Life / WHAT DO YOUNG POLES SEE IN RAP CRAP? [63]

Thanks for your comment, Tymoteusz.

>^..^<

M-G (appreciates hones comments - at least Tym GIVES a comment)

Goodnight everybody!

>^..^<

M-G (sleep)