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Posts by Sokrates  

Joined: 19 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 1 Oct 2011
Threads: Total: 8 / In This Archive: 1
Posts: Total: 3335 / In This Archive: 1407
From: Poland
Speaks Polish?: Yes
Interests: Many and varied.

Displayed posts: 1408 / page 12 of 47
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Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

compared to Sokrates "we built...to and from it".

We built the main railway station and we financed it to boot.

Also I don't deny Polish presence there for 444 years (look above),

You dont count the partitions when Lwów was a Polish authonomy, Lwów was for 598 years governed by Poles, for a period of the partitions it was ruled by Austrians but also governed by Poles, Poles made up post offices, militia, decided on what and where to build, controlled the education, all of the city treasurers, chiefs of fire department and presidents of the city were Polish.

In WW2 the city was occupied from 1939 to 45 first by Germans then by Ukrainians but it was still non-the less Polish city which the Lwów uprising proves.

6 times more" statement, which is a lie.

No its the truth, the city was with a Ruthenian country for 90~ odd years and then was in Poland independent or authonomous for almost 600 years, according to mathematics that means that Poland owned Lwów six times longer then the Ruthenians did.

Polish had a big impact on L'viv history and culture

No, Polish had a big impact on Gdańsk history and culture, as far as Lwów we created its history and culture.

Polish erected some beautiful artifacts.

No Nathan, we created almost all of them. Ukrainian university, main railway station, the entire city centre, the town hall, the opera house, the high castle, Dominican Church, Jesuit Church, the gunpowder tower, the arsenal, the black house, the low castle, Saint Elisabeth Church, we paved the roads you're using today, we built the bridges that cross Lwóws waterways, the city is built by Poles, the 90% figure is a very conservative one, chances are its more than that.

was taxing Ukrainian majority during Habsburg empire

During Habsburg Empire Ukrainians constituted approximately 24% of the citys population as opposed to 53% of Poles, at no point in Lwóws histroy from XIV century to XX century were Ukrainians more then the 1/3 of the total population, Polish population fluctuated between half and more than the half of the cities population.

you forget how intense Polish polonozation and pacification policies were in 1920-30s, driving Ukrainians out of the city

Actually no one was driving you out of the city, the problem with you was that you just had to resort to violence and always got your ass kicked only to be sour afterwards.

You wanted our city, you tried to take it by force so of course we wouldnt stand around with our thumbs in our asses.

So if you weren't majority of the population and didn't have your own country,

We werent the majority in the country around Lwów, in Lwów we were always a majority, every history book confirms that, including yours.

how can you claim of building 90% of the city? Just be honest.

Because we were the ruling class and the majority within the city limits from shortly after we got it? Because all the buildings have the names of people who built them or ordered them built and they're Polish people? Because for a quarter of a century we've been the richest country in Europe and Lwów was our major development project and even when Poland fell Austria allowed us to govern the city.

If you want we can do a run by of Lwów historical sites and who built them, barring a few Ormian and German churches and Synagouges its all built by Poles, virtually everything built prior to 1939 is likely to be Polish in origin.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Really, I see a perfect analogy between Lviv and German city of Breslau

More or less, and somehow we dont have beef with Germans coming to visit and so on (though i have MAJOR beef with Germans claiming Gdańsk or especially Poznań as historically German).

Yet people like Nathan feel compelled to take away our heritage. Lwów was as Polish as it can get, there's Polish statues to Polish poets, heroes and rulers on every town square.

Swallow your pride Nathan, Stalin gave you one of our finest cities and we dont want it back over Ukraines dead body, we respect the present situation, learn to respect its historical past.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

money were gathered on L'viv budget

And who was the ruling class during Habsburg occupation? (it was Polish money that it was built from)

So yes even under Habsburgs we designed, we built and we developed, with our money, our projects and our plans.

Ukraine 1939-2009...

1945-2009, in 1939-45 thats still Polish land.

Habsburg empire 1772-1918

1779 - 1918, Lwów was incorporated in 1779 and under Austria Lwów was a Polish authonomy.

I'm sorry Nathan no matter how you try to bend history to fit your view Lwów was throught much of its history a Polish city, even occupying powers recognized it as such.

Why cant you just settle with the fact that we dont want to take it back? You just must attempt to rewrite history.

By the way Natha presidents of Lwów under Habsburg occupation:
Florian Ziemiałkowski (1871-1873)
Aleksander Jasiński (1874-1879)
Michał Gnoiński (1880-1882)
Wacław Dąbrowski (1883-1885)
Edmund Mochnacki (1886-1897)
Godzimir Nałęcz-Małachowski (1897-1905)
Michał Michalski (1905-1907)

All of them Poles, every single one of them a descendant of Polish nobility.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

I don't argue, but 90% of L'viv architecture - give me a break.

Lwów railstation built and designed by a Pole. Lwów old town, Polish kamienice with our coats of arms on them, Polish town hall, Polish built churches, Polish palace in which a Polish king resided, market square in Lwów - Polish merchant houses, Lwów Opera house built by a Pole.

Yes Nathan we've been governing the city 6 times longer than you were so its only natural most of it is built by us, we can go on with examples of what Poles built or ordered built.

I don't deny Polish input in Ukrainian city. I just don't feel like tolerating following expressions:

Deny all you want, it was within the borders of Ruthenian country for 94 years and within borders of Poland for 584 years.

We built almost every historical site and community building in it, we built railways and roads to and from it, we made the city what it is today, you just inherited it.

it was built by Ukrainian king

As several mud huts and a stone keep, and then we took over and built it into one of the major cities of the Eastern Europe.

you dig some stone from Gdansk harbor in 990s set by Mieszko l just to prove that it was Polish.

No, the difference with Gdańsk is that it had a Polish majority for over 4 centuries and when Poles became a minority it was still several centuries before they vanished as a significant group, Polish nobility was always a large part of the upper echelons of Gdansk society and built a LOT of the city.

Gdańsk is a city with mixed history though i prefer to think of it as Polish, if you want an analogy with Lwów pick Wrocław which is a city we basically inherited from the Germans just like you inherited Lwów, Wrocław is not historically Polish and Lwów is not historically Ukrainian.

I don't deny Polish impact on L'viv architecture

And art, and culture and religion and economy.

don't overblow it,

I dont, Lwów was a Polish city, show me an argument as to why would it be Ukrainian, yes you built it and we took over it but its we who developed it.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

But I'm confident that you are not right

There was a poll done on Onet, 71% of Poles thought Lwów was historically Polish but respected its current place in Ukraine so yeah you're definitely a minority.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

give away whats yours, Lwów doesn't belong to you....so don't give it away!

Luckily you dont represent the views of the majority in Poland.
Sokrates   
10 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore.

Lets be specific, Lwów was founded in 1256 and Poles conquered it in 1350 from the on Lwów was a Polish city untill 1939 even under Austria it was developed by Poles.

So no Poland didnt take over much later, Poland conquered Lwów 94 years after it was founded and it was a Polish city for the next 589 years, we took over a bunch of mud huts and stone houses and built one of the most beatifull cities in the East over the course of half of a millenium.

Lets be clear, neither Polish goverment nor Polish general populace wants to take anything from Ukraine, Lwów was Polish now its Ukrainian and we got over it but for Christs sake dont try to make it a historically diverse city because Poles built it, Poles ruled it, it was one of the heartlands of Poland and evidence is present on virtually every street, most of the larger buildings still bear our coats of arms even.

Don't blame Ukrainians.

We do not, we think of Lwów as historically ours but the goverment and the nation basically respect the current situation and there's no real intention to revise borders.
Sokrates   
10 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Poles might have designed some buildings in L'viv

Some? We've been building this city for over half a thousand years, virtually all of Lwóws old town is built by Poles.

There is no such a thing as "Polish" architecture.

Says you, Baroq, Polish reinessaince et cetera, its all over Kraków, Poznań and its all over Lwów.

The oldest church in Lviv is Armenian Orthodox church (Xlll century if I am not mistaken)

I'm sorry Nathan the oldest church in Lwów is "Holy Mather of Snow" and was built in 1340 by German settlers.

As to cultural diversity it doesn't mean that you have to build something

Still more than 90% of surviving buildings were built by Poles over the course of more than 650 years.

We are not like some countries 95% catholic mono-national monolith ( no names here ;)- no - we have pretty large diversity, Sokrates.

Which doesnt change the fact that Poles built Lwów, developed Lwów, that Lwów is the second best preserved Polish city in the world or that it was for over half a millenium one of our greatest cities untill Stalin took it and gave it to Ukraine.
Sokrates   
9 Oct 2009
News / Why does Poland love the US? [144]

polands fears of russia are irrational

Because Russia just wants peace, pax sovietica that is :)))

if poland wants to strengthen its ties with america over those with the eu then fair enough

By now i think Poland woke up as to the nature of its ties with America with a bang.
Sokrates   
8 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]

Thats your opinion.

Thats history, F-16 was the best plane for the price btw, not because it was American but because it was the best quality for the given price.

Napoleon feked you for the next century because he had the idea to bring you to his Moscow campaign.

We were already "feked".
Sokrates   
8 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

*grin*

BB we built in accordance to German and Italian schools but these are Polish variations different then what you find in Berlin, if you want to get anal about 10% of Lwów is Baroq which is specifically Polish in style, whatever the style Poles built it all (almost).
Sokrates   
8 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Yes, Lviv has a lot of cultural diversity: Armenian, Georgian, Polish , German etc

The hell Nathan? Armenian, Georgian?GERMAN? I can off the bat list over 100 historical buildings built by Poles, virtually all of Lwów is built up by Poles with a miserable few buildings erected by Habsburgs and Ruthenians, the only city with more preserved Polish architecture is Kraków itself.
Sokrates   
7 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]

I am not a big fan of Mrs. Tymoshenko simply because of her social populism. But I pay appropriate respect to every democratically elected politician in the World.

I do not, respect has to be earned especially by politicians.

Tymoshenko is not pro-Kremlin at all.

I agree she's not, she's with Kremlin because thats her way to power, like all political wh0res she doesnt have any ideals or ideas driving her, just a desire to stay on top whatever the cost her people will pay.

She is just trying to find way of dealing with those monsters on East North border. It is not easy business. Ask Germans, they failed already.

One way to deal with them would be trying to unite the nation, i cant see anyone in Ukraine trying to do that atm.

I believe that Poland is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. But, for now, it is latent power.

No it is not, we're poor and backwards, we've got many things going for us like an economy thats 50 years ahead of the West in that when socialsm makes Western states grind to a halt we're 50 years before that stage and can learn from their mistakes but Poland as is now is relatively weak.

Rule one to build any sort of power is to realise where you are at stage 1, Poland is geopolitcally poised to become a regional power if circumstances are right and exploited correctly though.
Sokrates   
7 Oct 2009
News / IS NOBLE WINNER SZOSTAK POLISH? [68]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_W._Szostak

His grandfather was Polish, the guy doesnt have an ounce of Poland in him though.
Sokrates   
6 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]

I assume, Seanus, you have some rights to call Ukrainian state PM in such words.

He's right though, she knows Russia will damage Ukraine on every level if she gains control of it but she still kisses up to Kremlin simply to get political backing.

This is just ridiculous.

No its not she's a c*cksucker allright, we call it as we see it, if you read these boards you'll find us Poles calling domestic politicians worse, and we're usually right too.

You are Ukrainian so will be better informed than I.

Sean many of ths Ukrainians are living 60 years ago so chances are many of them are not as well informed, Orange revolution was not as one sided as it might seem, a large chunk of the nation (though a minority) actually believes partnership with Russia might benefit them.

Nice anthem btw!

Untill we get 'em back, then its back Poland uber alles again.
Sokrates   
6 Oct 2009
News / Poland. Sold for nothing. [341]

Do you have any idea who the first christians were?!

Poles, just like God, Jesus apostles and Mel Gibson.
Sokrates   
5 Oct 2009
News / Polish converts: When did you have your revelation? [29]

My revelation was a couple of years ago: I realized that Poland was the only way to eternal life

And then the sky went pink and clouds started talking, ten days later doctors brought you out from acid induced coma.
Sokrates   
5 Oct 2009
News / Polish/Croatian Relations [70]

As for relations, i think poles enjoy vacationing along the dalmation coast:)

Yep and thats all there is to say about our relations, we like to go there on holidays, apart from that no one really give a damn.
Sokrates   
4 Oct 2009
History / What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today [209]

Some would approve and some wouldn't as some are pro those countries and some aren't.

Sean notice that the two countries who wouldnt aprove of Polish Commonwealth are Germany and Russia, both of these countries are problem children of Europe and responsible for developing some of the most horrid inhuman ways of life in human history.

If Poland retained its power none of these states would be present in a form or shape that would allow for both world wars or communism, Poland in its golden period (roughly from 1400 to 1640) was an exceptionally tolerant state and and poised to become the seat and centre of European power if she could survive and prosper, by today we might have had an EU that occured naturally rather then through treaties.

As for Russia and Germany? Historically whats good for Russia and Germany is not good for Europe, both of these countries proved largely unable to make succesfull long term political decisions.
Sokrates   
4 Oct 2009
News / Daffy and Donald aka Lech and Jarosław Kaczyński together on tape, thoughts? [26]

Dubious educational claims dont make your waffle any superior... that you have to call people childish names says it all really.

I will however "call you names" if you attempt to sell political convictions as result of manipulation, thats manipulation on your own accord.

Kaczyńscy damaged our relations which just about everyone and that alone is enough to burn them, the sad theme in Poland is that whenever backward clowns like you meet someone who disaproves of their political views or supports a different party you parrot "you have been manipulated into it".

Respect peoples political convictions not matter how retarded they are and if you cant then come up with viable argument instead of parroting Kaczyńscy who claimed they lost not because they were a sad excuse of a politician but because the nation has been manipulated.

thinks it's time now that the Polish president signs the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty like he promised he would. In fact, Tusk publicly said he would do so swiftly

I'm against the Lisbon treaty but at this point we dont have much choice, problem is Tusk doesnt speak for Kaczyński even if he claims he does, hopefully the fugly duckling will do something right for once.
Sokrates   
3 Oct 2009
Love / How Many Dates Before Sex in Poland? [86]

Is that because most do it in the park after a bottle of cider ;-)

Wellll about 5 years back there was a couple that tried to f*ck right under Wrocławs catedral with dozens of people all around (drunk as hell), they almost got down to business before police got to them too.

I almost enjoyed it since the girl was hot but the guys arse ruined it for me.
Sokrates   
2 Oct 2009
News / Daffy and Donald aka Lech and Jarosław Kaczyński together on tape, thoughts? [26]

They are far from perfect but they speak for the silent decent majority...

No they dont which is why PiS lost, please stop making stuff up.

The Kaczynski's get a bad press in liberal europe because they defend Polish values.. the right not to promote homosexuality and abortion as just a "normal" event are such examples.

Kaczyński gets bad press abroad AND in Poland because they're rude, propose no solutions and whenever questioned about their incompetence they become confrontational.

Sad that so many get fooled by the western press,

How about you stop manipulating people, i've got 2 master degrees i'm politically active beyond just voting and i daresay that a vegetable like you is more likely to be fooled then someone like me, just because i oppose something doesnt make me an easily deceivable fool, maybe i take competent people above political wh0res spouting slogans.

Kaczynscy have one primary motor and thats desire for power for powers sake, yes they try to defend Polish interests but they do this so clumsily they actually damage them and no they dont stand for any values, if euthanasia and abortion would get them elected they'd go with them.

They're more honest then PO but that doesnt make them honest people just smaller liars (pun intended).