History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Forgive me but you were trying to make a point about Poles joining communism purely in self-interest and should be reviled for that and I am merely pointing out that emigrating to the 'west' was also an act of pure self-interest, so one could equally say this should also be reviled, wouldn't you say? Maybe one rule for one and one rule for another?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]



With respect it is a very rare person indeed that doesn't look out for their self interest ;-)

History / germany prepares for invasion of Poland [43]

Did the Soviet's maintain an emabassy or consulate in Warsaw during this time?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]

Operation Splinter Factor by Stewart Steven
ISBN-13: 978-0340168349

Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum
ISBN: 9781842773697

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


One could equally say that he was scheming to help liberate eastern Europe from communism; Poland included? Bearing in mind also that there were still armed anti-communist resistance factions still fighting the Polish communists in early 1950's.

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


Was it really misguided to help in the plotting of the removal of the communist regimes of eastern Europe... seems like most of eastern Europe wanted that as well judging by the history of the 1980's and looking at all those east European countries that are no longer dominated by communist regimes; Poland included?


Unlikely given he was born in 1915 (?) ... but nobody knows for sure?

History / Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried? [145]


It could be argued that Operation Splinter Factor and the part Col.Jozef Swiatlo played in this CIA operation, was the catalyst for reform of the communist system in Poland and sparked the insurrection in Poznań of June 1956 when about 100000 workers protested on the city’s streets. However the insurrection was brutally suppressed with 58 protesters killed and 700 arrested, but as a consequence of the insurrection reforms to the internal political system did take place and became known as Polish October Revolution headed by Gomułka.

There were further mass demonstrations in Poland during 1956 where militia headquarters and radio-jamming equipment in Bydgoszcz were destroyed by demonstrators that November and in December protesters in in Szczecin attacked public buildings, including the state prosecutor's office, militia headquarters, a prison, and Soviet consulate.

Also thanks to broadcasts by Radio Free Europe (funded by the CIA) information about the Polish October Revolution (or Gomułka Thaw) reached the people of Hungary in October 1956. It sparked a student demonstration in Budapest in support of Gomułka; the students wanting similar reforms in Hungary it resulted in the unsuccessful Hungarian Revolution where over 2,500 Hungarians and 700 Soviet troops were killed in the conflict.

Operation Splinter Factor through Jozef Swiatlo did achieve part of its mission; to cause instability across communist eastern Europe so from that point of view it was a Cold-War success for the west and did lead to some internal changes and softening of policies.

I am not sure if Swiatlo could be viewed as a traitor in the light of the Cold-War conflict but I guess Polish communists would disagree. I am not sure if he was a hero either.

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


The only way to get a handle on real numbers would be to DNA test a large sample from Polish population that were not displaced during WWII or after the population shifts resulting from postwar boundary changes..... otherwise this is all guesswork and personal opinion.

History / Poles in Battle of Berlin - 1945 [2]

Sikorski wanted all the released Poles to stay in USSR to fight alongside the Red Army in the liberation of Poland. He saw this as the best plan to help Poland regain independence after the war.

Anders persuaded Sikorski to allow him to move some of the newly formed Polish Army out of USSR and leave the larger force to fight with Red Army. Anders went against Sikorski's orders and secretly recruited a much bigger force to leave USSR. Anders was reprimanded by Sikorski for insubordination; some Poles even called for Ander's to be removed from command.

See:
General Anders and the Soldiers of the Second Polish Corps by Harvey Sarner.

The role of the Polish 1st Army is not given its due recognition in the defeat of Nazism by those Poles that fought with Anders and the Polish army of the west.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


I think it was actually only sections of the Polish Airforce (PAF) that were reluctantly invited not the Polish land forces. So the PAF declined the invitation if the land forces were not to be present.

The British government had by then (1946) already recognised the Stalinist Polish government and the Polish-government-in-exile in London was derecognised and so illegitimate to the British; therefore the Polish 'free' forces could not be afforded official reconigtion by HM government—I believe the British F.O. knew that by only inviting a small section of PAF they would naturally refuse to participate.

One wonders why British goverment would apologise for not inviting the Poles if indeed they were invited? They could just as well have published the original invitation to refute the claim Polish forces were not invited? Afterall they have access to their own archives.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]

polishforcesmemorial.com - New Polish Forces War Memorial in Britain- Sept.2009.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


Maybe if you like I can give you former cichociemni gen. Stefan 'starba' Bałuk's Warsaw correspondence address as I know him quite well and also Mr. Zibigniew Zielińnski former secretary of state for veteran affairs in Polish governement... I am sure either of the honourable gentlemen will be only to happy to help with your education especially regarding Britain's help to Poland WWII ;-)


Fantasy not fact....and you accuse me of offering opinion not fact..........now who is a troll?


I guess as English maybe your second language you have not understood my troll-like english...my text clearly alludes to the well documented divisions within the Polish-government-in-exile and it is a fact that there were many.... for example Sikorski was vehemently opposed by Sosnkowski and others in far-right over any dealings with USSR... as a consequence they were all too busy in-fighting to form an effective voice within the western allies... ultimately to the detriment of Poland.

The fact that the legal Polish government was in London and not in Poland led directly to the imposition of the Stalin backed regime of Polish communists in Poland.

I can recommend "General Anders and the soldiers of the second Polish Corps by Harvey Sarner" or 'Poland in the Second World War by Józef Garlińksi as being well researched works from primary sources which conatins much information about the political disunity in the Polish-government-in-exile which you might find educational reading ;-)

Back to my cave....troll' lol' lol......

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


Why would Soviets need to keep it secret at the time of the murders? The Soviets didn't know the Germans were going to invade USSR when the executions took place.....they were killing thousands of other Poles and Jews at the same time (in gulags and settlements all over USSR) so keeping a secret from whom? They only had to keep it secret from western allies when USSR changed sides and joined anti-Nazi war. You still do not provide factual source for your claim that Jewish NKVD (whom you also claim represented 90% of it ranks) have specifically excluded from this crime?


Trolls and education don't mix. Period. ;-)


Where is your factual source (which you don't give) for the number of Jews killed by Poles between 1939?


Now this website is a primary source of factual information........right ;-))))) click. click click the sound of of a sound eduction ;-)))))

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


In but one example...you obviously do not know of Britain's S.O.E help for Poland in training of cichociemni special force paratroops of the Polish underground army?

Britain also gave safe haven for the Polish-government-in-exile which it did not have to. Remembering also that Hitler did not want a war with Britain at all....Hitler admired the British..a small nation which had built and administered a vast empire which is what the Nazis wanted for tehmselves in Eastern Europe and Europea Russia. The fact is the Nazis made numerous advances for a peace with Britain which it declined in order to support its ally Poland (and other nations of Europe) in the defeat of Nazi Germany. One cannot argue that this was not so.

So not "really just helping themselves" at all. In fact one could argue that the Polish-government-in-exile did not help Poland as it was divided by factional in-fighting of political self-interest which ultimately led to its own abandonment by the western allies.

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


On what factual basis do you make such a claim? How many and which crimes are you referring to?

To many to list I know!


You wrote recently that according to Polish IPN reports 90% of all NKVD were Jewish...therefore why would there be no Jewish NKVD involved at Katyn? Were they excluded? Why? If as you say Jews made up 90% of NKVD would they therefore have no influence to have been involved in this crime as well?

Stretching the bounds on reason somewhat I think you would agree?

History / Poland war propaganda poster - can anyone explain this picture? [292]

This was an anti-Polish Poster (may not have a funny picture)....maybe forum admin will not edit out my translation of the poster text this time?

History / Poland war propaganda poster - can anyone explain this picture? [292]

\German anti-Polish propaganda poster

Verein für das Deutschtum im Ausland (Association for Germanness abroad)

Our Statement Regarding the Question of the Poles within the Reich

The Reichsführer SS and Chief of the German Police has decreed by order of Reichsmarschall Göring and others, that all male and female workers of Polish descent are at all times bound to visibly display on the right hand side of the chest on each piece of clothing the cloth badge pictured on the right in its actual size. The badge is to be permanently sown on.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]

Maybe Sikorski was just an unlucky guy as there were two previous times involving him and aircraft.
Once when an explosive device was found on board a plane he was travelling on almost a year before the Katyn graves were discovered —the latter event which is always held out as a reason for silencing Sikorski by the British or the Soviets. The other was I believe control failure so Sikorski's aircraft was forced back to base, again much earlier.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


I agree. It only proves that Sikorski wasn't murdered prior to being in the plane not that the plane crash itself was not sabotaged.... I still firmly believe if anyone was responsible then it was ultra right-wing factions of Sikorski's own government that initiated sabotage the aircraft rather than British or Soviets... but that's just my theory to add to all the others.

Genealogy / Why would someone lie about their age? [26]

I agree, but age was falsely given upwards to join the military and downwards to avoid deportation as forced labour.


So he was saying he was four years younger than he actually was, hence my suggestion it was to probably avoid something age related such as German decrees such as forced labour minimum age; I know several Poles that were 16 years old during early WWII who said they were 14 years old to avoid just this scenario.

History / Katyn executioners named, protected by Russian authorties [35]


This gentleman may have believed this to be fact but this is not so.
Stalin did not recognise the Polish Jews from Eastern Poland as being Polish at all and Soviets did everything they could to stop Polish Jews from leaving Union and its republics.


Strange that they should when a large number of Jews still consider Anders' army to be anti-semitic which again is a misperception as there was for a short time a soley Jewish company set up in Anders' army at the request of Jewish servicemen. Anders reconsidered this situation and decided that Jews and Poles in his army would be integrated, receiving equal treatment so the company was disbanded.

Again you will find more information about this in:
General Anders and the soldiers of the second Polish Corps by Harvey Sarner

This book also describes how the Polish 2nd Corps helped smuggle hunderds of Jews into the British mandate of Palestine after WWII in return Jews were helping smuggle Poles into Italy--neither the Italians nor the British wanted more Poles in Italy as they considered them to a destabalising infleunce in Italy (which was pro-communist) and a thorn in the side of British (western) diplomacy with the Soviets.

History / Katyn executioners named, protected by Russian authorties [35]


I am member of said group.


I personally wouldn't consider them that—but the fact is Stalin did and you would not be able to convince Stalin otherwise—deporting whole families was not applied to only Poles this was standard Russian practice from all periods of history regarding Russian political repression.

But my point was that your post stated Soviets (as well as Nazis) had a policy of "absolute extermination" of Poles—both of which is just not true.


What is your source for this statement?

In fact Stalin did not consider the deported Jews from Eastern Poland as Poles at all and wanted them to stay in camps. Sikorski/ Anders persuaded Stalin otherwise. Jews released had sometimes to covert to Roman Catholicism to get papers to escape from NKVD who were seeking out Jews to put them back into labour camps. Many Jews also had to pretend they were relatives of Poles in Polish army to be able to leave USSR under the amnsety. These are all facts which contradict your assertion that "....Jewish Polish" that were first released"

A good source of reliable and well researched (from primary sources) information on this very subject is:
General Anders and The soldiers of the Second Polish Corps by Harvey Sarner.

Also you could try reading 'The Ice Road' by Stefan Weydenfeld. This is a honest and well written memoir account of his (and family's) deportation to Kvasha settlement in Arkangelesk Oblast and journey to freedom after amnesty.


Are you saying Jews had high death rate or Poles released had high death rates.......in fact it applied to all released prisoners.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]


Yes We ruined everything....we wanted cheap give-away credit to buy our consumer goodies; new plasma TVs, new cars, bigger homes, more holidays, more bling—just about everything. If we didn't take out the loans in the first place none of this would have happened; nobody was twisting our arms or being tortured into taking out loans. Why blame the way banks were run ....it was we consumers that didn't want to look at the downside consequences of our own personal borrowing? The banks didn't dupe us—we all wanted as much cheap money as we could get, now unfortunately its payback—as it should be. Taxpayers (our) money is now paying for our stupidity not the banks!

History / Katyn executioners named, protected by Russian authorties [35]


With respect I don't think is quite true.

Germany's plan for Poles was to use the Polish nation as a "pool" of slave labourers not "absolute extermination" (unless it was Polish Jews) hence the several million Poles deported to the Reich as forced workers and not sent to "extermination" camps. Plus the majority of Poles who were not deproted as forced labourers during the Nazi occupation were not being singled out for extermination. Extermination through work did not apply to most Polish forced labourers but mainly against Polish Jews.....or am I mistaken?

The Soviets also did not promote "absolute extermination" of Poles either but the removal of all those it thought likley to resist the Sovietisation of the occupied Eastern terittories hence the mass deportation of those Poles (and their families) considered by Soviets as 'enemies of the state' to slave labour camps and settlements. The Soviet murder of Polish POWs was to rid the Polish nation of its leadership ie. Officers. Other ranks were sent to slave labour camps but this treatment of Polish deportees was no different to earlier deporations by the Stalinist regime of 'enemies of the state' from the Soviet republics and occupied territories, and not a specific policy directed against Poles per se.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]


I think what is being said is only Jews are smart enough to run the Banks, Hollywood, the Internet, the USA and the world.......why blame the Jews for your (collective your) not being smart enough to run the Banks, Hollywood, the Internet, the USA and the world. Come on guys get real .....make a start eat more fish it's supposed to be good for the brain :-)

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]


With respect isn't this part of the problem?

You have heard stories but not actually witnessed anything .........Jews have heard stories about Poles so they remove Star of David symbols .......myths are created from stories heard on both sides and the small number of these incidents become accepted as being behaviour and attitudes applied to all.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,557204,00.html
NEO-NAZI SCENE IN GERMANY
Extremist Violence the Norm in Parts of the Country
By Stefan Berg, Markus Deggerich and Sven Röbel

Arson attacks and racist assaults by right-wing extremists are part of everyday life in parts of Germany. Authorities are concerned that the country's neo-Nazi scene is becoming increasingly violent.

spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,540550,00.html

Far-Right Attacks Reached New Record in Germany in 2007

Last year a record number of attacks were carried out by right-wing extremists in Germany, a prominent anti-racism campaigner said. The problem is especially bad in eastern Germany.

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2295519.ece

Neo-Nazi rampage triggers alarm in Berlin
Locals in a small east German township stood by as a drunken mob of about 50 youths howling neo-Nazi slogans hunted down eight terrified Indian tourists.

Berlin police say 16 arrested during neo-Nazi demonstration
The Associated Press
Published: October 22, 2006

Israeli Ambassador Shimon Stein warned over the weekend that Jews in Germany feel increasingly "unsafe," pointing to the heavy security that surrounds most synagogues or Jewish community centers, according to a newspaper report.

"They are not able to live a normal Jewish life," Stein was quoted as telling the Neue Osnabruecker newspaper in its Saturday edition, calling on Germans to take extra measures to fight the trend of what he called rising anti-Semitism.

History / Pan-Slavic dreams of Polish/Russian cooperation. [12]


Is it not an accepted fact Sikorski actually wanted all of the Polish POWs released under the so called 'Amnsesty' which formed the new Polish Army in USSR to absolutley remain in USSR to fight alongside the Red Army so it could liberate Poland alonside Red Army....and wasn't it Anders that disagreed and almost went behind Sikorski's back to get Stalin to agree to let this Polish Army of USSR to leave Russia?

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]


and the rest :-)