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Posts by Sokrates  

Joined: 19 Jan 2009 / Male ♂
Last Post: 1 Oct 2011
Threads: Total: 8 / In This Archive: 1
Posts: Total: 3335 / In This Archive: 1407
From: Poland
Speaks Polish?: Yes
Interests: Many and varied.

Displayed posts: 1408 / page 11 of 47
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Sokrates   
15 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Don't want to make you cry but did you know that Berlin was actually an slavic settlement

Sorry no, Berlin was originally inhabited by Halstat culture which is affiliated with Celts and Germans are to some degree the descendants of Celts.
Sokrates   
15 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Well..according to your logic he was much to early for the last 120 years you allow the Germans!

Kopernik was born in Thorn, today's Toruń,a historically Teutonic city thats been a part of Poland for only 300~ years, however we did not take it from Germany we took it from the Teutonic Order and i daresay they asked for it somewhat bad given that they tried to crusade the living snot out of us untill we crusaded right back at them.

I've been referring to Greater Poland region and Poznań which was in Poland for 792 years prior to Partitions and for 94 years of the XX century for a total of 890 years as part of Poland, do you claim that to be historically German?

If you get some satisfaction out of these d*ick fighting...your pleasure...

Not really, the point is that when everyone is satisfied in whats German and whats Polish etc, then it might become European, if i said what are the historical ethnical borders of Poland i'd **** a whole lot of Poles off:)
Sokrates   
15 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

You don't believe honestly that in those territories Germans lived and thrived for 120 years only?

You mean in Poznań? The same ancestral capital where the tombs of some of our greatest rulers are? The same Poznań that was a part of Poland for 792 years before Germans took it?

Yep, untill the partitions Germans had absolutely no claim on it and were a minority in the region, on the same basis you could claim that Turks have claim to Berlin.

Should I show you the list of Danzig again with poets, scientists, famous people from back to 1400?

Two can play that game but it doesnt change the alliegiance of the city, who built it, who and when inhabited it, the city is Polish-German at best, more fitting would be a Polish city with a significant German heritage to it.

We could argue that the German majority made it a German city but the German majority was there for only about half of its existance and still did not stifle the Polish development of the city, then there's the case of political allegiance which for the most part was loosely or directly a part of Poland.

So if your claim is based on the fact that Germans bred like rabbits or that you built a church there i fear you'll find it difficult to argue with Turks about who's city Berlin is in about 30 years :)

What about Kopernikus? He was at least half german...

Absolutely, he's definitely half German, he was also fervently loyal to the Polish king and never in his life signed anything in other then Latin but what does it all have with Gdańsk' national and historical allegiance?

Based on your logic we should claim Chicago as historically ours.

You are kidding, don't you!

Arent you?

I fail to see connection between those two issues.

There's a pretty big connection between Lwów and Wrocław, we and Ukrainians are in the exact same position as Germans and us, amusingly most of Wrocław dwellers are descendants of the inhabitants of Lwów.
Sokrates   
15 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Well, in the beginning you owned sh'it as Poles were late comer

Do you mean Poznań or Gdańsk? Both established by us?

were late comer to these lands after Celts and Germanics!

Yet it was us who built cities there, not Germanics and Celts, does it mean that the awesome Germanic tribes were *gasp* NOT superior civilisationaly to the lowly Poles?:)

So when a people workes, builds and lives in these lands for centuries it has a claim on it...

Thats ok then, you lived, worked and built (though not that much) in Greater Poland for exactly 127 years, thats not "centuries" and so its still ours by right:)

in these lands it's both, Poles and Germans.

Ah that depends, Greater Poland is a purely Polish region and Germans had jack crap to do with it, Gdańsk is definitely Polish-German heritage and Wrocław more German then Polish.

get's Breslau and Danzig back.

You mean the same Danzig where Poles had the town hall built? :) No claim on Breslau but all that Danziging is not justified, why would a German city have designated residence for Polish monarchs? Or a town hall ordered by a Polish king?

I try to avoid quoting wiki but its accurate in this case:

Altogether combining the number of years, the city was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it returned to Poland again in 1945.

As for annexing German territories.

It was done by Stalin and the bugger left us with no choice, we had hundreds of thousands of people from Lwów and surrounding areas and nowhere to stuff them and here's a city, a ruined city but a city, its not like we could say "no" so Poland annexed bugger , it was Stalin and Russia.
Sokrates   
15 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

But didn't you guys annex some territory from Germany as well?

You mean that territory that Germans took from us 100 years before? No we did not :)
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

swinje

How about you shut the feck up, some of us used to live there, i dont consider my grandparents to be pigs you twat.

I'm not even going to adress the remained of bull you wrote, you need to be beaten to death with a sock full of mashed glass for butchering our history with this post.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

I would agree with you if you would have added "in the cities".

Not really, it was a nationalistic era and attempts at rationalisation are rubbish, most Germans regardless of region were behind their country regardless of what their country wanted to do, some went as far as to kill civilians other as little as nodding approvingly and living on but most were into politics.

Today modern view of people rolling along does not apply to the 30s.

I was told by both ethnic Poles and Germans that you had the choice: sign up for the Volksliste or leave your farm within an hour's notice.

Thats not true, simple as that. Of course there might have been some round ups in specific areas but in general thats just not true, rural Germans were not touched untill 44 and even then those in Germany came first, if you're talking about Poles, the penalty for not signing was forced labor (not the same as concentration camp though sometimes just as bad).

To the best of my knowledge there was no slave labour in the area I was talking about,

Slave labor was commonplace all across occupied Poland, not all German farmers used it but in truth most did.

can point me to a source that proves otherwise,

Well what region are you talking about? I can research or ask friends for specific sources that will refer to that exact region but i can safely say that there was slave labor everywhere where the German enterprises were.

Well, you called them traitors yourself in posting #97

Because legally a citizen of a country that acts on behalf of forces that seek to destroy said country commits treason, however the case of German citizens has deeper moral implications.

Germans stole Polish land, Poles got it back and Germans were obviously unhappy about losing governance, especially since Germans born on occupied Poland were not the same Germans who stole it 100 something years before and felt they have full right to Polish land.

This created an atmosphere where Polish citizens of German descent openly pledged alliegiance to Germany, acted against Poland and were Polish citizens by legal terms only, you cannot treat a long standing enemy as a traitor just because his legal situation makes him your citizen.

So yes legally they commited treason but I do not view them as traitors, simply enemies who found themselves within our borders due to historic turmoil.

The term matters because for example Jews who pledged loyalty to the Polish goverment and then sided with Soviets deserve to be called traitors and on a personal level i view a traitor as something much worse then a simple enemy, no matter how bad said enemy is.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

What about all those ethnic Germans who didn't care about politics?

In the 30s very few people didnt care about politics.

I know for a fact (from eye-witness reports of farmers from the Poznan area) that many of those people lived together peacefully with their Polish neighbours.

And then they used Polish slave labourers, if its any consolation most of them were nice to their slaves.

Are they still traitors in your eyes simply because they were ethnic Germans?

Germans in the 30s were our enemies, calling them traitor is rubbish, traitor is someone who has alliegiance to you and breaks it, Germans in Poland had alliegiance to Germany and made no secret of it.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

That many Folksdeuche shite?

Jola even without reading i realise that Harriet is a stupid little sh*t but posting rubbish like you do doesnt do our case service.

People were made to serve under pain of death, theirs and their families, if you were in Wehrmacht your family received documents that would save them from forced labor, get them decent food when everyone else starved and if you refused off to the camps go you and your family.

Now if a Pole was serving willingly and actively thats a different case but most served because the alternative was death for them and their families.

As for Germans? Legally they were traitors but lets not kid ourselves, German minority was never Polish, these guys were enemies of Poland and thats all there is to it.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Poles were not leading class, szliachta and magnaty did, and Ukrainians were among the elite.

Yeah, Polonized, Polish speaking Catholic Ukrainians whom you couldnt tell from a Pole that constituted maybe 20% of all of the ruling class, the rest of them were Polish.

You are a nazi.

Poland uber alles:)

I feel horrible posting under this ugly propaganda made up title. This is my last message here and I ask you to do the same in respect of Ukraine... and Polish government representing civilized people in Poland.

Nah we're going to invade you when we get bored and take Lwów again.

Just Peasants' Wars like German "Bauernkrieg".

More or less, yeah.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Regarding one week to take Ukraine - haha - all NATO forces combined are not able to take over Afghanistan for years.

Insurgence in a mountainous country as opposed to regular war in flat Ukraine?

By the way, Ukraine produces nice tanks (T-84 OplotM) and anti-horse machinery,

Yes, you made 2, then your MOD came out and basically that you can produce 2 T-84s yearly.

So in another 200-300 years you'll have enough modern tanks, of course thats assuming your army finally has money to keep more then 400 tanks running.

Merry Xmas i guess?
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
News / Polish government reconstruction after shady lobbying scandal [8]

Whips are those that keep everyone in line.

Unofficially but yes the position exists.

He seems to have been pretty decisive

Key words, seems to be.

The problem is that if you can't trust the CBA to be impartial, just who can you trust?

CBA couldnt be trusted from the beginning, it was a political construct from the start, i dont see what are you amazed about.
Sokrates   
14 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

If EU is not interested in Ukraine, there is always Near East, North Africa, Asia, South America.

Oh please, you've got 3 potential geographical parnets, Poland, EU and Russia, everyone else can only offer loose economic ties or are you imagining that Brasil will become a valuable ally when on another hemisphere.

Better watch your own back, because as far as I see, its bare.

With a growing economy, stable and strong international position and slowly becoming one of the main countries in EU? Totally bare.

Why do you think we will copy German tactics and fight your cavalry with tanks? ;)

Your tanks have fuel enough to move 90 miles each, you wouldnt even make it to the battlefield.

By comparison Polish military reserves allow each tank to move 900 miles before expiration, German reserves allow them to move nearly 2000 miles, not to mention you have no more then 400 machines running, any EU country larger then 30 milion people could take over Ukraine in a week.

What I denied is 90% of the city built by Poles, which is a HUGE LIE.

Yeah so are all the pictures, all the houses, castles, palaces, we even built streets, there's architects names available you know, its 90% or more :)

Well, you weren't able to say anything of value against my post and yes, Lviv is a city of cultural diversity: Ukrainian, Armenian, Polish, Austrian ... , not just Polish. It is ridiculous.

Nathan Lwów was a Polish city, governed by Poles, built by Poles, developed by Poles.

For approximately 80% of its history Poles constituted between 50% and 55% population, the Ukrainians never ever exceeded 30% so yes Lwów was a city culturally diverse but undeniably Polish and Ukrainians played only a minor part in its history (Jews and Austrians had a much greater part by principle of urban and cultural developments).
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

So, don't worry Sokrates...I'm not a fake person trying to stir things up.

Well my position, i understand if your ancestors chose to fight for Nazi Germany, the call of duty and all that, but given what Nazi Germany represented i'm against any reparations regardless of whatever legal basis German people in your situation might have.

TELL ME YOU WOULDN'T TURN UP AND CLAIM IT

I would not, and you can of course try but given that your ancestors served in Wehrmacht your chances to get anything except for a nasty look from a judge are abysmal.

There's a thousand legal obstacles that will be made, every administrative procedure that normally takes days will stretch out into weeks, documents will be lost and so on, in the end you wont get a penny.

I speak from experience since i have a German friend who's family tried to get back a house here in Wrocław and had a rock solid legal basis to do so, after 11 years of legal struggle and even petitioning Brussels they just gave up.

Speaking for my family, we owned a house and a small manor in Lwów (today Ukraine) and while we made friends with people who live there we dont try to claim it so there's your answer, and i'm definitely not a bloody Mother Teresa, she was tiny and fugly and mingled with blacks.
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
News / The Lisbon Treaty and land reperations [74]

Why do i feel DariuszTelka is a sock account trying to stir stuff up? As far as German people serving in Wehrmacht or in any even most remote way affiliated with Nazi Germany (like using slave workers on their farms) my views are that they should not get even one inch of land, even the tiniest amount of money, we shouldnt even nod intheir direction.

Dariusz i dont care whether your ancestors were made or not, personally i prefer to believe they were nazi, its like with Erica Steinbach where every SS-man in her organisation claimed they made him wear the badge.

Your familiy affiliated yourself with Nazis and so you lost it all, its OK to strip Nazi supporters of possesions or of life and by principle of not encouraging Nazis your family should not get anything regardless of any documents you have, moral principles should be above any legal ones.
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

And you think that an independent Western Ukraine wouldn't have money?

Absolutely, it would be as broke as you can get (given that current Ukraine is in a bad shape and getting worse). The loss of half the economy would be bad.

Poland would be very eager to invest in such an area, as would Slovakia and Hungary.

Compare Slovakian and Hungarian economies and the Polish one.

We can also assume that any independent Ukrainian state would make it very easy for the West to do business with - without a Russian minority agitating and demanding links with Moscow,

The West made it clear enough they're not interesting in Ukraine, any Ukraine.

In fact, without the very poor and run down industrial East (and possibly without Kyiv) - it's likely that a Western Ukraine state wouldn't be much poorer than Eastern Poland.

You do realise the Eastern Ukraine is actually much richer and the majority of the economy resides there?

it's likely that a Western Ukraine state wouldn't be much poorer than Eastern Poland.

No it is not, sorry to break your bubble but they dont have money to invest.

It's no worse off than Ireland, Latvia or Iceland.

Stop living on the moon, Ukraine is dilapidated, its GDP is deteriorating, investors are on the low, comparing Ukraine to the above is ridiculous, even Iceland despite its bankruptsy is better off because it can count on international aid that Ukraine can not.

A Western Ukraine out of political and economic needs would open their door to the EU

If EU was interested it would go in now, EU countries made repeated statements that show Europe doesnt really care nor will in the future, as far as political and economic significance Ukraine is way behind Turkey in EU accession.

Add to this that by the time such a state like Western Ukraine could realistically access EU (20+ years) Western economies will already have significant issues due to overblown social and in some places failing population so they wont like an idea of another poor state joining.

In other words it doesnt matter in what form or shape Ukraine exists, EU is unlikely to be interested in it within the next 20-30 years.

and I bet 99% of Ukranians would rather be in poverty and independent than be part of a Polish state.

Yeah i bet that too, i also bet that they prefer to be a Polish dependency then a Russian one.

Moscow is gaining in strength day by day

Says you, the press and academic sources say about the non-existent private sector and an economy based purely on fossile fuels exports, thats a pretty fragile setup.

fact that Russia is steadily incorporating areas such as South Ossetia shows that they're going nowhere fast

Lets be clear about several things, Russia picked a fight with about the only opponent it could, Russia is not steadily incorporating anything because quite frankly Ossetia is the first (and last) military excersize in a long time and by the way Byzantine Empire incorporated areas a few decades before Crusaders sacked it.

Ukraine may swing either way. Belarus - no chance, they're too linked up with Russia and the political elite there will always support Union with Russia over anything else.

If that happens Ukraine is f*cked, Russian Ukraine would be used as a proxy against Poland, a conflict that would economically wreck Ukraine to a point of no return.

Ukraine today is probably best compared to Poland in the early 90's - poor, but free.

No its not, it lacks integrity, it lacks Western investment, its poor, its deteriorating, its divided and most importantly its alone, Poland throught its transition had Germany, UK, France, US and Ukraine is well and truly alone.

The moment the West ensured that Ukraine is democratic via the Orange Revolution it lost interest, Ukrainian situation is nothing like Polish, Poland reformed in peace and quiet, protected by treaties and interests of neighbours, Ukraines existence in its basic form is threatened so is its economy.
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

that some ppl here just doing nothing more than spreading out the propaganda they paid for

Ukrainian state has no integrity at current, Orange Revolution showed deep divisions, even your very own state agencies know that and try fighting with Russian language use within Ukraine.

You, discussing here, under this ugly titled topic future of Ukraine

Well whats wrong with that? All countries have some future that we can deliberate upon based on current situation.

What are the constants to you?

The intentions and attitude of neighboring states, the military, political and economical capital of a discussed country, its national and political integrity etc.

It was for example completely predictable that interwar Poland would get invaded by Russia and Germany, just as its completely predictable that Ukraine is unlikely to survive in its current shape and form.

Historically Ukraine was unable to survive without protection since its a recent nation having some 300 years it arrived among strong and long established neighbours, that Ukraine operates as it does happened purely because of Stalin who intentionally gave Ukraine a major Polish city and some Russian land (with a Russian minority) in Crimea to spark future conflicts.

How you can predict future of 50 mlns nation if you can't predict future of your business or employer

In a way predicting future of nations is easier since we have history to fall on, many people attempt to disregard history but its great at compiling a prognosis for a nation because you know how it responds to a crisis.

I have reported some messages from this topic to Administration and upset that it is allowed here discuss Ukrainian state integrity. Is the same apply for questioning integrity of Poland?

Maybe its true about the IQ chart of Europe ... Sorry Slo i'm not spreading any propaganda, the facts are, Ukraine is poor, threatened and divided and barring luck or providence it has no means of surviving the long term crisis that awaits it.
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Actually, it's more likely that the Ukrainian state will split in half

You need money to run even half the country, the only place willing to aid independent Ukraine is Poland, to put it brutally nobody else gives a sh*t. As for Russia, Ukraine is in a sh*tpit it is today because it was affiliated with Russia in the first place.

and Lwów will become the capital of a Western Ukraine state.

Again you need money to run the state, even minimal funds, Ukraine as a political entity doesnt have money and the situation is deteriorating.

Certainly though, no independent Western Ukraine state will be rushing to join Poland.

Oh i never said they'd be rushing to do it, they'd do it as a political and economic neccesity, Ukraine split in half and not looked after by the West will need to look for protection and affiliation with others to survive, in the region the choice is either Poland or Russia.

but will certainly be part of Mother Russia.

Provided Mother Russia doesnt go the same way as Belarus and there's quite afew indicators that Russia might irrevocably fail as a state within our lifetimes.

Personally i think that Ukraine and Belarus are more likely to fall into Polish sphere of influence but that depends solely on what happens in Russia within the next 20-30 years.
Sokrates   
13 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

I think that
Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

No you implied that we should take it from Ukraine which I and most of the Poles are against.
Sokrates   
12 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

thats the spirit !

Not really, i'm not saying that we should get Lwów back, i'm saying that Ukraine and Belarus are bound to dissolve as political entities.
Sokrates   
12 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

You know how it ended so many times before

Yep, you lost every war you fought with us.

Ukaine was rough on you in the past.

Militarily? Your own general said your tanks have 150 gallons of juice per machine and pilots fly 12 hours a year, we'd run over Ukraine in a week.

Economically? We've got 2x your GDP while having 10 milion people, in any conflict with Poland, economic, political or military you have about as a snowballs chance in hell of winning anything.

Quite frankly you should keep your little UPA nazis quiet because unlike Poland-Germany Ukraine is seen as redundant by EU and Russia so if you start saber rattling and we kick your ass no one will as much as lift a finger to help you.
Sokrates   
12 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

I have never in my life changed anything or even added to Wikipedia

No sh*t and when you used battle won by Ukrainians where someone mysteriously multiplied 10 times the number of Poles that actually took part in the battle.

It is interesting when people, having no arguments anymore, open up their true nature like a flower on a beautiful summer morning. All pretense disappears. I was surprised, I thought what happened to Sokrates. I looked for him and found now again. :)

Nathan there's nothing about arguements, all buildings posted were built or funded by Poles and there's more, we have governed and developed Lwów.

As for getting it back, Ukraine is poor, your state will not survive long term so its a pretty safe bet that we will at some point in the future get Lwów within our borders again.
Sokrates   
12 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Well Nathan since you're resorting to lying, check who financed George Hotel and who owned it.

Yeah, Poles, Boyim was a Pole sorry, yes he had Hungarian roots, several generations back.

Picture 6 is Sobieskis Royal Castle and has nothing to do with what you claim.

As for the church of Saint Jura i see you resorted to ediiting Wikipedia again, just like you did when you made a number of Poles in a certain battle 10 times larger than in reality :)

Szeptyccy founded the church which was built and approved by Poles, it was our city you see and we had to approve of projects and since your people were already 200 years behind Europe Marco Lucani and Jerzy Wieniawski built it for you :)

And thats the same with all of it, you will resort to anything including lies, if an Austrian architect builds something that Poles funded its immidietaly not Polish:)) Rest assured there's enough buildings that our architects made it and very few that yours did.

Of course in the end Lwów will get back to Poland, your poverty stricken country wont survive on its own, or maybe we'll have a war in the future and it'll go like all the wars you had with us, one way or the other i dont think we should take our city back but i'm pretty convinced it will get back to us in due time :)
Sokrates   
12 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

I'm talking in the name of Polish goverment and the majority of Poles, you're some kind of extreme right redneck, Iron, your opinions are not exactly representative of the majority in Poland.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Nathan since i'm a firm believer that pictures speak better than words:

We didnt build some stuff in Lwów Nathan, we have built all of it, almost every building in the city built between 1400s and 1939s is built by Poles or funded by Poles, you live in a historically Polish city, every street, every bridge and nearly every structure within the last 500 years was built by us.

Do we think you stole our land? No we dont, Stalin and Russia chose for Ukraine, chose for Poland and chose for Germany, thats why Lwów is in Ukraine and Wrocław in Poland, no we dont want to take it from you now or ever, we do not hold a grudge against you so stop inventing your own fascist little version of history.

Lwów used to be one of the greatest Polish city, now its in Ukraine you dont have to invent new history for it, no one in Poland is mad at Ukrainians, no one wants to take it back.

The only beef i personally have with Ukraianians living on our former lands is that you allow this to happen to our heritage:

When we took over German lands we rebuilt German landmarks and we maintain them as beatifull pieces of history, why cant you do the same to what Poland left behind? Lwów is an unkept mess.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

To give you some idea, people who live in Wrocław now are children and grandchildren of people who built those in Lwów (so much for Nathans Ukrainians Lwów by the way):
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Yes...I read of it...most people now living in Silesia are eastern Poles. Changing the face of this part of the land irrevocably.

Not really no, the people who came here were the elite of the nation, Lwów before the war was the centre of science, education and art so i daresay Wrocław is in good hands and its not like you cant come and live here.
Sokrates   
11 Oct 2009
History / Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? [302]

Well, when I bring the centuries old list from Germans in Danzig or Breslau

I have no beef with Wrocław but in Gdańsk we were a major part of the ruling class and a majority for quite a bit, also Danzing during its heyday was a free city.

you discard all this but now demand from Nathan that he should accept a list from 1800???

Its quite different for Gdańsk, there's our royal castles and a whole LOT of stuff we built in Gdańsk, there's very few things Ukrainians built in Lwów not to mention we were active in Gdańsk patrician classes and a large part of them.

It seems with you it can only be the Poles always be right, right?

Nope, like i said Wrocław is definitely closer to Germany then to Poland, Gdańsk is arguable and Poznań is as Polish as it gets, but Szczecin and Wrocław, yeah.

Paradoxally, most Poles exiled from Lwów came to Wrocław to replace exiled Germans, my family among them.