Worst Polish leader Lech Kaczynski or King Stanislaw Poniatowski?

Who's worst? King Stanislaw Poniatowski was responsible for the partitioning of Poland.
Lech Kaczynski allows military control and occupation by American troops by supporting their missile base. Also, by not withdrawing Polish troops many Polish soldiers are dead in Iraq for nothing and he condones CIA torture on Polish soil.

Hahah, good question! What has Kaczynski done for the Polish economy or democracy!? We never had great politicians, but this is all times low :(.

Undoubtedly Kaczynski !!! Poniatowski was just a poor king who hadn't enough strength to reform his state and it wasn't his guilt, but Kaczynski advisedly is involving Poland in struggle in which it will win nothing. It would be very sad if Poland will become the small coin in this fight again....

Kaczysnki? He is the best president so far in "the third Rzeczypospolita". I think Kwasniewski was definitely the worst. During his leaderhip he was doing nothing expect stealing money and blocking some good projects.

Poeple... Please, do not believe everything they say in TV... Poland has never been devoloping so fast. And do not tell me it is because of SLD, because it will make me laugh.

True.

You really think so?
I don't think King Stanislaw Poniatowski was a good and moral person, but as to partition that is not his guilt. Nobody on his place could resist the union between Russia Prussia and Austria. During POtop there was no union among Russia and Sweden and even between Russia and kosaks. That was the main reason why RP heroism and resistence could give results. Such situation wasn't repeated in 18 century. RP was divided for many years but notice: when the relations between Russia and German Nations became worse RP independence immediately became possible and in was promised at the beginning of WWI in 1914.

Some people consider the partition was impossible if regular army was strong enough and Nation was more centralyzed. But nobody thinks about the lewel of such regular army force and social centralization. I'm sure that all could lead only to totalitarian state with military dictatorship, many repressions against suspected spies and great taxes in favor of armi and bureaucratic structures. Only such means could become an adecuate answer to the Three Black Eagles. But there were few sources op profits in RP in that period and such policy could ruin the Nation. RP could become more and more weak by military taxes and repressions against suspected opposition and sooner or later it could loose the war with enemies.

So I don't think Poniatowski is guilty

As to today situation, I noticed an interesting article in Newsweek:


msnbc.msn.com/id/19887675/site/newsweek/

What are the opinions?

What projects? And what are Kaczysnki's best deeds?

As to mee I feel that the twins are quite dissident and sometimes marginal people. The are so accustomed to opposition and inteligencija the seem to know nothing about state system and bureaucracy the want to overcome

Ok. There you go:
-Annulment of tax of inheritance and donation
-Decrease of excise tax
-Simplification of dispossesion (if highway is to be built) (BTW, previous, too complicated law was created by... SLD)
-Becikowe :P (in my opinion very helpful for young parents, the couse of the law was completely misinterpreted by media)

Ah just only economy? And on political horizonts? Dose he deserves the monument will be errected in his honor?

I remember posting a similar thread to this before on PF.com

A lot of the Polish I know were moaning about Kaczynski.
When I posted it here, Grzegorsz explained that they can vote over the internet or through a mailing system.
When I went back and questioned them why they didn't, half of them were simply too lazy or didn't care.
So its pretty much a case of put up or shut up.

As for Kaczynski, I don't know enough about politics in Poland to suggest that he is doing a good job or a bad job. However, Polish people should be positive. Things are rapidly improving in Poland.

I didn't think much of that Newsweek article tbh, they make Germany out to be the good guys, despite the fact Germany were going for a power grab only a few weeks ago.

At least the Poles know who the bad guy is - RUSSIA - and are willing to take a stand

What kind of stand. Shall you describe what are they going to do with Russia? Russia seems to be protected even by itd large territory and any operation like in Iraq seems to be impossible in Russia. Russia still has natural resourses that permit the Nation to avoid hunger death. Russia yas business with West Europe and both sides are interested in the business. Even if the West constructs nother gas tube from Central Asia away friom Russian territory, well it will have to use the both tubes. No one will reject gas from Russia and buy it only in Central Asia.

In thei situation the only way for the West is to have an efficient policy toward Russia, as well as interesting proposals to Russia. Only attracted by these proposals Russia can change its policy now.

Are there any proposals that Kaczynski thinks the EU can elaborate?

When one has no arguments he stops to discuss and makes stupid remarks. How typical...

If you want to discuss give me some arguments, tell me why Kaczysnki is so bad IYO. Or maybe you think that boosting economy and decreasing unemployment is wrong?

When it comes to the Newsweek article i totally disagree. I actually like fighting for everything in the EU, because finally Poland is taken seriously. We will see how many % PiS will get in the next election. From what we see right now it will be more than what other "ruling parites" were given previously.

Ohhh... and BTW, I am not a huge fan of PiS, but it pisses me off that a lot of people say nonsense about them just because they do so in media.

That was the reason why I mention the article. It is not common with US mass media in general


Why should we look for mistakes only? Why aren't we accostumed to find something one had to do and failed to do? I mean the concept of Omission.

Jaro Kaczynski is going to struggle against postcommunist clans and the mere fact he mentioned these clans existence is already a great progress.
But how is he going to fight against them? By preventing old agents of secret police from mass media? What a foolish thing! Many of them are quite old and now their sons make career and business under their clan protection! Besides that, why secret police secret agent is smth dangerous now and a man openly protected by former Communist party clans is something better?

I don't think Jaro even knows the algorytmes in politics

By forcing the EU to get off their ass and make a united front against aggressive Russian "diplomacy" e.g Polish Meat ban, cyber warfare on Estonia for moving monuments within sovereign territory over which Russia has NO dominion, and heavy handed threats using energy supplies as leverage.

Apply pressure on Putin over the erosin of democracy and abuse of human rights.
Extradition of Litvinienko's executioner to London and reinstatement of diplomats.

Has to start from somewhere tho. Instead of training police in Iraq, the US/UK/UN should send in troops to get rid of the current mafi....um, 'police' in Russia where they could actually make a difference.

Even I thought it was a cheap shot for Newsweek to call Jaroslaw Kaczynski eccentric for living with his mother. Would Newsweek rather have him put her in an old folk's home?

Ok, let's stay appart economy! IMHO foreign affairs is much complicated field. And here Poland's policy more harm than good for EU. It will lead to fractioning of EU. So, Poland hasn't enough resources for role which it tries to play in europe policy. Take a look on France and Germany, all of them want a good relation with Russia and Poland in this attempts mere an annoying disturber. In some "good" day Poland will be kicked out from serious policy. We have a proverb - "Po odezhke protyagivaiy nozhki" (You should stretch your lags according clothing you have).

Economy? Well not all things in our life are determined by economy. Russia during Peter I, France during Luis XIII&card. Risheleu have poor finance sistem and economy in bad conditions, but....

As to comparison between Kaczynski and Poniatowski. It will be more valuable to compare Kaczynski with another Poland's king - August II the Strong, ironicly he was as i think the weakest leader in all Poland history. And August, not Poniatowski was true initiator of polish agony. To blame Poniatowski in Poland's partitions is the same that blaming of Romulus Augustulus in destroing of Western Rom.Emp. or Constantine XI indownfall of Romeion Empire.

re: At least the Poles know who the bad guy is - RUSSIA - and are willing to take a stand

- True. But the Poles also know about the German ambition to rule so called Eastern Europe, notably Poland, like a little German farm. It doesnt seem that the French mind it; and certainly the Italians seem to be strongly in favour of that. So called Eastern Europe is perceived as second-class folks in the EU. Or maybe even third - in many EU countries the aliens from the Thirld World have way more rights and political support than us.

It bodes fatal for the EU.

truee

Puzzler you didn't quote any examples but I can imagine you want to say.
Doesn't it seem to you that such political "support" is also in Polish interest as in German one?
Let us take for example Russia. Germeny is interested in German gas. Nobody will oppose to this statement. And what about Poland? As far as I know gas consumption in Poland per capita is of the same lewel as in Germany.

Germany wants to have a Baltic tube away from East Europe. And what about Poland? Remember the map. Ukraine? Belarus and Latvia occupy territory from Baltic sea to Black sea. Gas transitorial blackmail is quite possible. Poland will be among victims. Or you trust Ukraine? Latvia? Authorities of Belarus?

Let us forget about gas. Its substitution by nuclear energy and biofuel is quite logical.
But Russia is only one of Nations surrounding the EU. It is not the only Nation EU has problems with. So it seems to be impossible to ignore Russia as well as many other Nations outside EU. Germang are looking for ways to construct European relations with different countries (not only Russia), EU or NATO is unable to occupy or strongly threaten. Germans realize flexible approaches and realpolitik are required.

Poland is also interested in this activities.
And what about Polish proposals. Are there any? I didn't hear anything about them.
Well you are offered to propose smth concerning EU policy toward Russia. What to do to:
1. Strengthen Russian democracy and middle class controle over state bodies. Don't propose Human Right watch - it is not efficient. Don't propose support of opposition. Kasianov's reputation can't be restored among Russians. Anything else.

2. Elaborate profitable EU proposals sensible by the majority of Russian population. The proposals that can become real if Russia follows West demands. Do you have any idea?

Germans think on this but not so hard. If Poles like you make your mind you will succeed more and that will be a great shame to Germans.

re: King Stanislaw Poniatowski was responsible for the partitioning of Poland.

- Russia and Germany partitioned Poland; hence they were responsible for the Partitions. King Poniatowski was just a Russki puppet.

re: Lech Kaczynski allows military control and occupation by American troops by supporting their missile base.

- The alleged control and occupation of whom does President Kaczynski allegedly allow? By the way, I'm sure that the vast majority of Poles would prefer the American 'control' and 'occupation' than the Russian or German one.

re: Also, by not withdrawing Polish troops many Polish soldiers are dead in Iraq for nothing

- Well, where there's war, there are dead there. The Polish soldiers are not dead for nothing; its in Poland's political interest to support the Americans in Iraq.

Hm, so not withdrawing troops from Iraq by him makes a given leader the worst figure in his country's history? Why? So e.g. Tony Blair is the worst leader in Britain's history? Why? Because he hasn't withdrawn British troops from Iraq? Why would not withdrawing troops from Iraq make one the worst leader? Elucidate please.

Does it follow that withdrawing troops from Iraq makes one the best leader in one's country's history? There are numerous other countries that have troops in Iraq. Are their leaders the worst too...?

re: and he condones CIA torture on Polish soil

- Prove it.

re: Kaczysnki

- It actually spells 'Kaczynski.'

I understand where your coming from what that post, but life experience has taught me to disagree.
I remember people (here in Ireland) saying those exact same arguments when I was a boy. I haven't heard them in years now really.

People occasionally voice an opinion about some ridiculous piece of legislation, but on a wide scale, everyone has seen the incredible benefits which the EU brought to Ireland.

I imagine it will be the same in Poland except it will be considerably magnified. Poland was starting from a point further down the ladder than Ireland. There is a bigger population, more land, phenomenally well educated population, resources etc.

Ireland so far has been the EU's big success story, but I think Poland will overtake us within the next 10-15years.

I don't remember who it was, but someone on this board said "Poland is going through rehab, rehab is never pretty!"

I do however agree with your point about the German power grab. Its something that we all need to be careful of, the Germans have been trying to do this for years, in different methods.

Not so long ago they were taking about making a two tier EU.
They wanted to unite France & Germany and make a federal union, then the countries that refused to become part of the federation such as the UK could opt to become part of the EU confederation.

Either way, with the harmonization of so many laws across Europe (court ordered driving restrictions implemented in Ireland will now be enforced in the UK and vice versa) means we are inevitably moving into a stronger union.

Dannyboy, I know that Europe will unite eventually; she has no other choice if she is to survive; yet I am not sure whether it will happen under the aegis of the EU as we know it.

As for Germany, I think that within the EU there should be a strongh oppositon on the part of smaller countries, such as Ireland and Poland, against their domineering tendencies. It has started already; the Spanish have just submitted a proposal for the reduction of the number of German EU MPs and increase in the number of MPs from other nations.

You know your stuff Puzzler, no denying that.

You should definitely consider a career in politics.

You're right Puzzler King Poniatowski was a puppet that's why he was a bad leader just like Kaczynski is a puppet of George Bush and therefore also a bad leader. Poland needs an independent leader. The last time I looked Poland was called Poland and is not a colony of America. I also feel most Poles look upon Russians nowadays as Slavic brothers. They never will look upon Americans as brothers because they have nothing in common with them culturally.

The mission in Iraq is a failure and the longer Poland stays there they'll be stained by that failure. Also, the CIA interrogated terrorists on Polish soil this has already been proven by independent observers.

Here, some of my compatriot is trying to convince that we (Russian) look like you (Poles or Europeans) and that after SU collapse we were changed our minds toward integration with you, that we are all friends and even could feel some sort of brotherly love toward you. Hemmm....Let's not delude oneself! Not you and especially we don't believe in this nonsense. So let's stop to play this polit correct role in "a la - Americana" style.

The fact is that mother-Russia had too plentiful meal during XX c., we eated too fast and too many and got some sort of indigestion.

And now, by the physician's advices, we are seating on the diet, trying to restor our digestive system and health. But health means good appetite!

Europens hypocrites always talk about "Free Europe from Brest (Fr.) to Ural", but we think about "Russia from Kamchatka to Brest (Fr.) ". ;-)))

re: Kaczynski is a puppet of George Bush and therefore also a bad leader

- What do you mean that President Kaczynski is a puppet of George Bush? What facts do you have to back this assertion? Do you suggest that President Kaczynski is a foreign puppet in the sense that King Poniatowsk was a Russian puppet? How would you prove it's true?

And what do you mean that Poland 'needs an independent leader'? 'Independent' meaning exactly what?

re:I also feel most Poles look upon Russians nowadays as Slavic brothers

- What if your feelings are misleading you? Facts seem to contradict your feelings, actually. Few in Poland respect Russkies, let alone consider them 'Slavic brothers.' We consider them more Asiatic than European or 'Slavic (whatever the last term signifies). Feelings are good for psychics. Are you one of them, pal?

:)
PS. So you can't prove that President Kaczynski allegedly allows the Americans to control and occupy Poland nor that he 'condones CIA torture on Polish soil'? Liar, liar?

:)

re: You should definitely consider a career in politics.

- Thanks but its not for me. ;)

Now, the EU is a mess. How is it possible that the job market in Germany and in other EU countries is closed for some EU nations, and at the same time there is a constant stream of folks from the Thirld World - all those Asiatics, Arabs, anfd the like - entering the EU countries and allowed to settle and work there?

First and the most important thing that needs to be done to reform the EU is locking the gates for the thirldworlders, limiting the EU aid for them, and taking care of EU citizens before any others.

If this is not done, the EU is going to collapse - soon.

And so is Europe.

Now there are clearly powerful political forces in the EU that back the Thirld World immigration lock stock and barrel. Would those who would like to reform the EU and make Europe great win with these forces?

Come on my civilazed brother, don't stop only on locking gates, you should restore segregation. Well how it is typically for europeans, they always talk profusely about racial tolerance but really still hate all people with another color of skin....

Once, after Pogroms Alexander III said "I hate all Jews and I feel happy after each pogrom, but this pogroms should be stopped by government"

This false position is a good example of nowday EU policy.

I would strongly disagree with that statement

What are the ways to cope with such imigration.
I'm sure for that some steps are necessary:
1) Development of low cost house, car and electronics-internet manufacturing. I.e. module sandwich-panel cottages for some Usd 15000-20000 (like Levittown in the USA in 1940-50), cars for USD1500-2500, Usd 50-100 laptops and 100megabytes per second unlimited internet for some USD 10 mounthly. Such low cost requires a great research of billions dollars but it will later revive economies of poor countries and low cost satisfactory living standarts can keep people in poor countries away from imigration. On the other hand such low cost and module technologies as used within the proper EU will require less labour and less imigrants can arrive.

2) EU agriculture should be less donated. The EU farmers can't use donations without the use of ilegals. And many ilegals leave for the EU because their farms in Africa and Asia can't be in competition with donated EU agriculture despite better climatic and ground conditions and less crop cost. EU politicians seem to be frightened by domestic farmers capable to paralyze all the ways by their tractors. In my opinion EU society should get ready to survive in such protests and to overcome. It should be stated that there are no reasons for fear that poor countries can be united later in food blackmail of EU because there are many producers in competition.

3) EU should establish a strong irregular police service controlling each street, each town. No one can live in EU without being noticed by society. That will permit the strict controle not only over ilegals but also over drug traffic and other challenges such as for example violence in families and infantil crime. People who have more high social position (some 20 % of population) should be involved in such controle. The facts when any of them don't want to notice smth. evident in place of his work or residence should damage his reputation. In the epoch of Internet it is quite easy to stigmatyze his reputation.

At the same time young people if they are out of regular army should spend a year in street commands looking after order in place of their residence, cleaning streets and visiting physically handicapped neigbours. That will permit a good order and complete controle, the impossibility of ilegals' penetration and of course will contribute to the growth of responsability among young people. All the population will feel more security in general.

These are the ways. What is examined in EU? Other good ways? You know them? You are sure they are more efficient?


By the way, Puzzler,

Will you determine more exactly what do you mean by thirldworlders?
If we are discussing practical steps not abstract dreams, such term should de described.
First of all because not the EU on the whole but Poland is going to open way to EU to people outside Eurozone. Poland created not so long ago conditions for construction workers from Ukraine, Belarus and Russia to work without special labour bodies permission.

Today Poland is planing to attract young Ukranians, Belorussians and Russians to Poland. As it is informed, young imigrants will receive a permition for a year and if they manage to find a job, it will be possible to live and work more untill naturalization in some 6 years.

You spoke about the chinese wall against people from Third world but the reality is that precisely Poland is the country ready to the most serious violation of this principle.

One may oppose that we are discussing only Slav imigrants who are similar to EU population. But:
1) Such argument contradicts political correctness. Turkish people may be ofended. You may discuss imigration reduction but without any attention to race or ethnicity.
2) Slavs may be similar to Poles. As to Germans, I'm not sure it is so.
3) Not only Slavs live in East Europe. Millions of people in Caucasus. I'm not sure EU people can feel any difference between them and Arabs or Turkish people. Chechens are already colonizing Poland and have posibilities to live legally and right to naturalization in some years. Only USD 500 average salary in Russia stop many of them from leaving for Poland. As to Poles, they seem to be ready to receive them.

So you are for cease of imigration, but Poland may become the greatest acceptor of imigrants now in the EU.
What is your opinion on that?