Taras Bulba - the movie

At that time and place there was one country called Kingdom of Poland.
Secondly cossacks represented only themselves and no country would tolerate actions of the independent military organizations.
Anyone living at that time and being dissatisfied for whatever reason could allways look for protection and help to that organization - cossacks.
It has nothing to do with being Russian, Rutheanian or whoever .......

Oh yeh! BS, Alex. Did you get from here?
"Russians like to use this fact to prove that the great writer had more in common with Russia than with Ukraine. This boorish Russian rejection of Gogol's Ukrainian roots is epitomized for the Ukrainians by former the Gazprom head, prime minister, and now Russia's ambassador to Ukraine Viktor Chernomyrdin. In a recent interview to a Ukrainian glossy, Chernomyrdin slated Ukrainian cultural politics, thereby demonstrating profound ignorance of the issue. "For instance, let's take the case of a student here who decides to read the recent Ukrainian translation of Gogol's Taras Bulba," said Chernomyrdin. "What does he discover? In this so-called 'translation' all mentions of Rus are omitted. And the student will really believe that this is what Gogol wrote. But Nikolai Vasilevich did not write this. He couldn't have written it. This is the result of 'diplomatic' translations - it's a disgrace."

In saying this, Chernomyrdin simply appears to be unawareof the fact that there was a first version of Taras Bulba. In the first version, the Russian national theme, so strong in the second, is almost absent, and Gogol's celebration of Cossack derring-do takes pride of place. And whereas in the second, the hero Taras Bulba is burnt alive by the Poles, with a vision of a Russian ruler coming who will set wrongs to right, in the first version he lives to fight another day. "Our favorite ambassador yet again wanted only the best," said Vasil Shlyar, a translator and well-known Ukrainian writer. "But the main thing is that Gogol [who famously burnt his sequel to the classic Dead Souls shortly before his death] never burned the first edition of Taras Bulba. Nor did the first edition burn Taras Bulba himself."

Please, note my bold underlinings - a lot to think of. Russians as always trying to undermine everything. Alex, you read in Ukrainian "Taras Bulba" from the mouth of your retarded ambassador. It is not nice to lie, poliglot ;)


Tolik? Haha. What is delirious in my reasonings, Alex?


Correct, slo :) I wouldn't deny Cossacks calling it Kacapinia though.


Ironside, you are beyond arrogance, but it is nothing to be surprised of - it comes with milk (I knew many like you) ;) Today, there is only one country as well - Kingdom of Poland ;)

What do you think about this issue:

Municipal authorities form Lwów (yes the city which was in 60% Polish before the war) demand UPA monument to be build in Poland (yes DEMAND ) ... UPA is organization which in collaboration with Hitler Germany ethnically cleansed Polish towns ...

Lviv City Council calls for an official protest of the Ukrainian authorities to destroy the monument of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA ) in the Bieszczady mountain Chryszczata in the Podkarpackie region - reported local media.

In this day adopted an appeal to the President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko , the foreign ministry in Kiev and the Consulate of Poland in Lviv councilors tagged events Chryszczata as the " act of vandalism " .

They want to destroy the Polish-Ukrainian friendship

Listen, Salamon. Przestan pierdolic. As you can read from the article neither ambassy of Poland in Kijiv, nor Polish Consulate in Lviv received any "demand" as you put it. If there are people who want to build a monument on Polish territory, they should write a letter to one of these institutions. And I don't see any letter mentioned in the article - this is first of all. Secondly, if Polish city council decided that existance of this monument was agreed upon before, then it should be rebuilt. If not, then there it is not supposed to be, because it is Polish land - point. If Polish people don't want a monument - then there is no monument and no one can impose on them anything. From the article you can clearly see that this petition has absolutely no seriousness whatsoever because even consulate wasn't informed. And even if in the future they'll ask about it (Ukrainians are not Russians, we ask, not DEMAND) and Poland don't feel like it then there is no point of arguing anymore.

I don't think any reasonable person in Lviv wants it. But strange ones are everywhere.


UPA didn't collaborate with Germans. UPA fought against Germans as well as Russians. I can't deny what I can't prove, but Volyn' killings of Poles were committed mostly by KGB squadrons, the same pertains to Polish lands, where they put on UPA uniform and killed innocent Poles just to undermine its existance in resistance forces. KGB documents remain closed in this matter as well as matter of Katyn' and many other Russian KGB murders. Why are you so scared to reveal your documents in regard to Volyn' and Katyn', hm?

I haven't been writtng about Ukrianian ambassy. This artcile points out that Municipal authorities form Lwów DEMAND this monument to be build. They made special appeal in this case so you avoid facts about which I am talking about.


Majority or your municipal authorities form Lwów want it. Read the article.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army


Believe me or not but AK (Home Army) and Polish communist have the knowledge against who they were fighting against, there is a lot of books about it.

I thought that Poland and Ukraine were going in good direction ... but unfortunately it seems that somebody tests Polands good will or maybe it is sign what is going to happen when Ukraine will be realy strong ...

Listen, Russian dude. Do you speak Polish? Because I do and I know what the article says. Ask any Polish here and they will tell you that there is no mentioning of "majority" as you put it and no saying of anyone demanding directly Poland or its embassy or even Consulate which is itself located in Lviv. I would recommend you learn English first because "ambassy" is not a word and then practice your Polish a bit to understand better the articles.

I didn't deny their fight with Germans, Russians or Polish AK or Polish communists. If there are documents that support UPA killings of innocent Poles, I bring my apology to all Polish people and feel deeply sorry that it happened. But as I know KGB documents of Volyn' and Katyn' are still lying in Moskow's archives and they will definately shed a light on what happened, when and how many people and who murdered. People, like Salomon, who works for Russians propoganda and tries to pour oil into the fire by saying


are ones who eagerly desire break our friendly relations especially those we made in the recent years. Keep on making movies, Salomon Salomonowich.
I hope kacapy like Salomon will eventually get tired of writing BS on this forum.

Why?
Are you telling me that at the time there was some other state?
A bet it was ukraine, right?

RON - Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów.

Nie wierzę. Jesteś tak bezczelny Ukraińcu. I sincerely hope that you will apologise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_massacre - READ IT!!! Check references!

And not only in Volyn!
stankiewicze.com/ludobojstwo/lwowskie_a.html

I said if there are documents with names of Ukrainians from UPA as well as the murders they are linked to. You say I am bezczelny - why? That you present me the names of the people murdered and Wikipedia unsupported materials, but how do they link these names to UPA and not to NKVD? I can print you the names of Ukrainians who were murdered in Volyn' at that time, but as long as I don't have supporting documents to link them to Armija Krajowa or NKVD, I cannot accuse anyone, right? Our presidents shook their hands in mutual understanding of what happened in the past and I think it is pointless to bring it up again. And you know why? Because it can't be solved unless many archives which are secret nowadays hold a lot of info on that time. When all the guys who are linked to the murders are dead as well as when governments won't see anymore of necessity to hold them secret, then only we will know the truth. But it is way into the future and we, you and me, won't live that long. So don't tell me that I am "tak bezczelny", because I have more heart than you think and I don't want anything like that happen in our history again.

It was political claim made by nobility but there was a Crown - Kingdom of Poland - and Duchy (Grand Duchy of Lithuania).
So your post is off topic as there nothing about Ukraine.

Is there something about Lwow deputies or not ? Is there something about their apeal? Why do you avoid parts of article which says true wrolds about Ukrainian DEMANDS?

Ok Nathah opinion is not important anny more. WWII is old story.

If somebody looks on other nations by prism of history... Of course Ukrainians have done much more bad for Poland than Russians ...

For me history isn't so important.

Lets face it anty - Polish views are present in current western Ukraine. If we are not racist this country has much more potential than Poland (bigger population, terytory ect) .

We must think if Ukraine in current sharply nationalistic shape is in Polish interest ? Of course it is in American interest but I am not so sure if it is in long term geopolitical Polish interest to support nationalistic part of their society.

Wikipedia - yes, unsupported - no, that's why I wrote - "check references".
The other link I posted, was to show that UPA murdered Poles not only in Volyn.
I said that you are "bezczelny", because it's like laughing in someone's face, when you say: "documents of Volyn' and Katyn' are still lying in Moskow's archives". You know exactly that these documents will never be revealed and they have been probably already destroyed.

According to prosecutor Piotr Zając, Polish Institute of National Remembrance in 2003 considered three different versions of the events in its investigation. In all versions, Ukrainians were responsible, not NKVD. This hasn't changed.

You know Polish, so please read this, there are enough hard proofs to tell who is responsible for massacres of Poles in Volyn: miasta.gazeta.pl/lublin/1,35640,1568390.html

ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/186/1465/Wolyn.html - actuall IPN site says explicitly who did it. We already know the truth.

Thank you, Porzeczka, for the info. As it is said the investigation still is going on. But there are couple of things that I would like to point out. Two hypotheses were discarded only on the notion that it happened within short period of time. Personally I wouldn't consider it valid and jump to the conclusion that the organization was totally responsable for the murders that occurred. As Zajac said the leaders of the organization didn't know of what was going on at that region at that time. Many massacres, and I don't deny them, were committed by Ukrainian peasants who just took forks, scythes etc. and went on killing people. It wasn't organized as many want it to present. You have to take into consideration that Polish government did in the Polonization that started in 1930s were thousands of Ukrainian schools, churches were closed, people were forced to take baptism and marriages only in Catholic churches. Groups of Strzelcy were patrolling villages and for no reason whatsoever attacking people, imprisoning peasants and robbing them off their possessions. Rapes and murders were not something out of place in these times. Again they killed Poles - no denial in here. I don't defend them, but on the other hand I see what pushed them to such actions which remind me of 17th century were again religion, serfdom and culture were forced on peasants as well which led to massive revolts and massacres. According to Polish historians 60,000 Poles were murdered, according to Ukrainian - 20-30 thousand Ukrainians were murdered in retaliation. Zajac said that retaliation is less murderous because it was done in consequence of murders committed by Ukrainians. He only forgets that what these people did were a consequences of something before in history. Porzeczka, read even only Wikipedia on Polonization starting from the fall of Habsburg empire in 1918 and till 1939. You will see the seed brewing there. If there is an excuse it has to come from both sides and not organizations but people like you and me.

What are you talking about are you totaly demented?
I know that you dont have arguments, facts to support your claims but that is too much even for such imbecile.

Nice harvesting went to gather those peasants -infants, women, old folks - they deserved to be done with as the scum of the earth.
You buster making some lame excuses, there always something in the past but is not a reason for massacres committed on innocent people.
Do you really known what consequences are - you are ******* clueless idiot- you saying that because of that massacres Im perfecly justified to kill all your family, burn house down and hang your dog!

Are you mental?consequences ? my ass !

Well, did not liked Poland because this and that - well they should move to Soviet Union to Ukraine proper!
People like you should stay in the cage for good of the sane people.

Can you read, professor Ironside? Zajac defends Polish actions because he says the murders commited on innocent people by Polish were less murderous since they were retaliation of Ukrainian actions. That's all I wanted to say and I don't agree with prosecutor Zajac here. I don't defend murders on either side. They were outrageous and unjust. Both sides killed innocent people and I am not going to weigh liters of blood here. My words were more directed to the prosecutor than to Porzeczka. I wish you, Ironside, could enjoy better proficiency in English to understand what I am saying.


Well, it is our territory and no one is going to move anywhere. We are not guests, we are propriators, Ironside, don't forget.


What about the good of insane people, why don't you think of them and yourself? How will you protect that category, professor Ironside?

Can you?
Have you ever heard about action and reaction?
Zajac said that if someone lost all family in the vicius barbarian action committed by Ukrainian peasants then his action can be explained.
You however are implying that they olso had some reasons and equal it with Polish reaction to the massacers.
Where there some innocent people killed by Poles? Possibly but not many, Poles werent murdering everything that moved.


You on the other hand are unable to understand much in any language.
I wish you Nathan all the best in your simple existence, your words on this forum done much harm to the ukrainian cause.


In 1930s territory we were talking about was Polish, yet another example of your unability to provide logical argument you simpleton.
Anyway those prewar terrytories should belong to Poland!


Are looking for charity?Its seems to me that so far, you have been taken good care off, dont forget about your medications,though.

No, they just woke up one early morning and said: why don't we go and kill some humans for no reason whatsoever.


So you propose to calculate liters of blood on each side here?


Unfortunately for you, I do.


Occupied by Poland, nothing else.


I don't gice a balaboo crap about that cause , whatever it is. I know you won't change your arrogance no matter what, but good luck anyway.


Two last quotes explain everything. Germany as well should belong to Poland ;0

Germany?


Bull!!! from 1360?


No they had haters like you to said it!


No I propose to separated right from wrong
Germans too lost many people innocent as well but nobody in his right mind is trying to equal it with the victims of the IIIR.

You are tough, but we are tougher :) Nobody messes with Ukrainian Cossacks :)


Because Germans fought on the foreign lands. The same pertains to Polish.


Likewise Polish had haters, so I see we understand each other.


I mentioned Germany because there are some discussions of Slavia (wtf is it?) and cutting the territories of other countries - one of them was Germany.

Read my post above about cossacks.:)


That's nosense, terrytory we talking about should belong to Poland and never was part of ukraine in anysense.


I doubt it very much that you understand me, dont flatter yourself I don't hate you....

I don't say you hate me - I am simply mentioning your statement somewhere (I couldn't find it) about haters in Ukraine and I said the same of Poland. I think we should have long time ago found some understanding, Ironside. Don't you see that people like Salamon - Russian scum-head enjoys it.


Poland is whatever it is and Ukraine is whatever it is. Our borders are untouchable. If you start to recall who was were and for how long, you will do nothing just worsen the relationship. Kievan Rus had Przemysl and Teutonic knights had Gdansk, Tatars had Crimea and Corsica was an independant island. What do you propose? SHould, would, could is for kids. Let's talk sense here, Ironside.

Fine with me!
You stared name calling and insults but let put it behind and let's talk sense!

Present borders between Ukraine and Poland were Stalin's doing, that's the fact!
You say borders are untouchable because they are in your benefit.
You could't have hoped to gain those borders without being part of the Soviet Union.
So let's talk, I know is therory and all but let's talk honestly without bull.
It's only border dispute nothing else as I don't contest existence of the ukrainian nation and it's right to have independent state - and never had!

I am afraid you have no say in that LOL

I don't think your conclusion is correct.


The whole OUN isn't reponsible, only OUN-B/OUN-UPA is.

Zajac says: The whole action, because of its scope, size, precision of the strikes, element of surprising the Poles, had to be planned and prepared in advance. In the process of investigation, version about random character of killings was eliminated. On the basis of the evidence, one hypothesis is considered to be the most likely - that the decision to take action against Polish population was made alone by OUN-B leadership in Volhynia without the consent of Central Prowid OUN. This decision was made personally by OUN-B leader in Volhynia - Dmytro Kljaczkiwśkij, alias "Kłym Sawur” (posiblly with his close associates) who was in the command of whole UPA and directly of UPA Volhynia.



Nathan, I don't think you understand. People were horibbly tortured before their deaths - women, men, children, whole families. Do I have to go into details? 'Forks , scythes'? '17th century rebelion'? UPA had more than 300 ways of torturing people. It's not only about killings but how they were done! There will never be an excuse for the monstrous cruelty of UPA and its peasants. The motives behind these atrocities can be disputed, but the main goal of OUN-B is clear - to obtain lands ethnically clean before any possible postwar peace talks could be conducted.


Only in Vohlynia. Volyn is the best known case. But Poles were murdered in other places too. According to historians, the number of Poles slaughtered by OUN-UPA range from 120 000 to 150 000.


He only stated the fact – the reprisal actions occured, these actions were the consequence of UPA crimes.

I think we should end this discussion here.