Russia to outlaw criticism of WWII tactics

celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #1

Did they say "punish" anyone who criticises the manner in which Stalin?

Russia to outlaw criticism of WWII tactics
The Russian government is to outlaw criticism of Soviet military tactics during the Second World War in the latest example of its heavy-handed approach to dissent.

Sergei Shoigu, the emergency situations minister, has called for a law that would make it a criminal offence to suggest that the Soviet Union did not win the War

Mr Shoigu indicated that the legislation would also seek to punish eastern European or former Soviet states which deny they were liberated by the Red Army. The leaders of those countries could be banned from Russian soil, he said.

Liberal Russians fear that the legislation will be used to punish anyone who criticises the manner in which Stalin conducted the war or addresses incidents such as the Soviet massacre of 22,000 Polish prisoners of war at Katyn Forest in 1940, which Moscow maintains was not a war crime.

The battles are little known in Russia, and even Marshall Georgy Zhukov, the Soviet war hero who led the Rzhev operations, barely mentioned them in his biography.

"It has become the fashion to smear the heroic deeds of the Soviet people and to defame the Soviet way of life," said Ivan Korbutov, a retired general who heads the Russian council of war veterans. "Such actions, orchestrated at the behest of the West to discredit our glorious past, must be brought to court and the journalists responsible punished."

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/4943814/Russia -to-outlaw-criticism-of-WWII-tactics.html

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #2

Russia strenghtens its reputation as a civilized state:)

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #3

a civilized state

lol Do you think the people will react to this and if you do how?

ZIMMY 6 | 1601

6 Mar 2009 / #4

All anyone has to do is read "The Gulag Archipelago" a book by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
(Архипелаг ГУЛАГ) to understand what the Soviet Union was about.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #5

The Gulag Archipelago

I should hope they won't start sending there people back to Siberia to punish them. This is taking Ruissia so far backwards.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

That was so sad when he passed away. He lived not far from me in the USA.

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #6

lol Do you think the people will react to this and if you do how?

Boooyah! Our soldiers were heroes!! Do not underastimate the power of the soviet troopers running through a minefield to heroically clear it!

Most of them actually swallow that crap so they'll just pat the guy who came up with it on the back.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #7

Our soldiers were heroes

This has nothing to do with heros in Soviet military, many of them killed by Stalin orders, I might add. This is about telling historical truth, letting the people think, speak, learn without the goverment playing God.

sjam 2 | 541

6 Mar 2009 / #8

The ordinary Red Army soldiers were heroes if it wasn't for their enormous blood sacrifice the Germans would never have been defeated in the East. We owe the Red Army a huge debt of gratitude and respect for that sacrifice; in the 'west' they are the forgotten heroes of WWII (not forgetting the Polish 1st Corps course :-))

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #9

The ordinary Red Army soldiers

There are good and bad in any military unit. This is about the crimes by the Soviet Goverment and Stalin dark side. He not only sent his own to Concentration camps he sent the other allies. I was just reading of the American that were in Siberia.

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #10

The ordinary Red Army soldiers were heroes

Yes they were.

We owe the Red Army a huge debt of gratitude and respect for that sacrifice;

They've liberated Poland yes but the way they did it and what USSR did afterwards denies them any claim to gratitude or respect, at least from the countries that became the later "Warsaw Pact".

SeanBM 34 | 5781

6 Mar 2009 / #11

The ordinary Red Army soldiers were heroes if it wasn't for their enormous blood sacrifice the Germans would never have been defeated in the East. We owe the Red Army a huge debt of gratitude and respect for that sacrifice;

Actually in Ireland we were thought this.

Anytime I am in England there is always something about how the British won the war.
American movies about this time is about how they won the war.
I was supprised in Ireland that we were thought about an 'alternative' history, the cold winter and the HUGE Russian (soviet) sacrafice..

But your statement is different from what happened after, when they occupied and oppressed the people terribly.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #12

They've liberated Poland

They Occupied Poland and I can not blame the military that followed orders, I can blame Stalin our so called ally. One thing must be faced, Stalin never intended to have a free Poland. Right from the on set of war, Stalin made his plans known.

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #13

They've liberated it from Germans and lets face it German plans for Poles were rather gruesome, we'd be exterminated so Russia did save us from genocide and degradation but their alternative was no rose and candy either so russian veterans can kiss my ass as far as respect and gratitude.

Yes it was Stalins doing but they served him and mark you they personally couldnt care a broken penny for Polish independence and simple human freedoms.

SeanBM 34 | 5781

6 Mar 2009 / #14

I can blame Stalin our so called ally. One thing must be faced, Stalin never intended to have a free Poland. Right from the on set of war, Stalin made his plans known.

What was that thing...
The Warsaw uprising, the Poles revolted against the Nazis and the Red army held back, letting the two beat each other and then came in to claim it for themselves.

That should have been an indicator as to the BIG plan.

Jeez that is a really bad way of putting it but you know what I mean?.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #15

Russia was extermininating Polish. Look at the death toll on the Polish side and who was doing the killing from start, during and after the war.

The Warsaw uprising, the Poles revolted against the Nazis and the Red army held back, letting the two beat each other and then came in to claim it for themselves.
That should have been an indicator as to the BIG plan.

Even the Russians that wanted to cross the river and help the Polish allies were shot if they tried. When Polish were fleeing Nazis through the tunnels it was the Soviets, our allies on the end killing the Polish coming out. Read "The Case of 16 Poles" and the plot for war on USSR as told in official documents, I found it on line.

sjam 2 | 541

6 Mar 2009 / #16

For those that still read books :-)

Tank Rider: Into the Reich with the Red Army by Evgeni Bessonov

One of only a handful of Red Army memoirs soldiers memoirs in English and worth picking up a second-hand copy on ebay.

Anybody know of any recent Red Army WWII memoirs published in Russian?

Stalin never intended to have a free Poland.

No—not since the Polish-Soviet war in 1920.

Even the Russians that wanted to cross the river and help the Polish allies were shot if they tried

Didn't some of Berling's Polish 1st Corps paddle across the Vistula to help? But they were mown down by German fire not Soviet bullets. Or do you refer to some other information? There were also a couple Russian liason officers that were parachuted into the Polish lines—so they weren't being gunned down by Soviets?

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #17

Russia was extermininating Polish. Look at the death toll on the Polish side and who was doing the killing from start, during and after the war.

Killing not exterminating, Russians were murdering people who'd they view as obstacle, Germans would just kill everyone so there is a difference but that still doesnt mean we owe Russia anything but a middle finger as far as WW 2 is concerned.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #18

Killing not exterminating

I stand corrected we all know how important slaves were to Stalin. Why kill what you can slave to death.

[quote]The Soviet Gulag existed neither as a single unified experience, nor as a single unified institution. This massive and lethal machine influenced the lives of millions of people from 1917-1988.

gulaghistory.org

Harry

6 Mar 2009 / #19

Even the Russians that wanted to cross the river and help the Polish allies were shot if they tried.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_uprising#Berling.27s_landings

When Polish were fleeing Nazis through the tunnels it was the Soviets, our allies on the end killing the Polish coming out.

Carol, if you had ever been to Warsaw you would know how laughably stupid your statement is. Really. Just look at a map of Warsaw, note where the Soviets were (right bank) and count the number of tunnels under the Wisla (none).

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #20

Didn't some of Berling's Polish 1st Corps paddle across the Vistula to help?

Yes against the orders of the high command.

Didn't some of Berling's Polish 1st Corps paddle across the Vistula to help? But they were mown down by German fire not Soviet bullets.

No they were not, they made it through and joined the AK units, the second wave was stopped and failed to establish the bridgehead because Russians would not provide fire support and forbade polish artillery to do so.

He meant sewers, and crossing Vistula would be pathetically easy for the Red Army, they had such number of artillery they could shield their engineers without any effort.

There were also a couple Russian liason officers that were parachuted into the Polish lines—so they weren't being gunned down by Soviets?

As i read your posts i realise that you're either covertly anti-polish or simply severely uneducated, the so called "liason officers" were dropped either to direct the movements of communist partisants or to make contact with AK units so they could later be easily identified for pacification, Russia provided no organised support for AK and no support in any form at Warsaw, they were just another invading enemy army.

Harry

6 Mar 2009 / #21

He meant sewers, and crossing Vistula would be pathetically easy for the Red Army, they had such number of artillery they could shield their engineers without any effort.

How many sewers run under the Wisła genius? How easy it would have been for the Red Army to cross the river is moot to this discussion: Carol claims that Soviets shot AK fighters who were using tunnel/sewers to escape the Nazis. She is clearly lying (or mistaken but it's unlikely that she is mistaken because she's made this claim before and that time I pointed out the slight geographical problem with her claim), as anybody who has been to Warsaw will know.

As i read your posts i realise that you're either covertly anti-polish or simply severely uneducated

You are overtly anti-semitic and severely uneducated. The idea that sewers run under the Wisła reeks of stupidity.

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #22

Carol claims

No Carol knows and when US and Britian found this out they were outraged. I will find you the victims that were there and you can become educated also. :)

meant sewers, and crossing Vistula would be pathetically easy for the Red Army, they had such number of artillery they could shield their engineers without any effort.

thank you

sjam 2 | 541

6 Mar 2009 / #23

you're either covertly anti-polish or simply severely uneducated,

Being an overt troll both I reckon :-))

Harry

6 Mar 2009 / #24

Carol knows and when US and Britian found this out they were outraged. I will find you the victims that were there and you can become educated also. :)

Carol: come to Warsaw, look at the river, imagine where the Germans were and where the Soviets were. Then think about how stupid your claim is.

There are no sewers (or other tunnels) under the Wisla. There weren't any in 1944 either. As the Nazis and the Soviets were on different sides of the river, it is fucking impossible for Poles to be shot at the end of sewers/tunnels by the Soviets!

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #25

You are overtly anti-semitic and severely uneducated. The idea that sewers run under the Wisła reeks of stupidity.

And where did Celinski write that there were tunnels under Vistula? He just said tunnels aka sewers and Poles were indeed evacuating via the sewers, i'm not responsible for what you invent in your own mind though:)

OP celinski 31 | 1258

6 Mar 2009 / #26

Carol: come to Warsaw, look at the river, imagine where the Germans were and where the Soviets were. Then think about how stupid your claim is.

Harry please stop being so insulting? Watch, listen and learn the truth.

Harry

6 Mar 2009 / #27

And where did Celinski write that there were tunnels under Vistula? He just said tunnels aka sewers and Poles were indeed evacuating via the sewers,

Genius: at the time of the Uprising (and for a couple of months after it) the Nazis (and the Uprising) were on one side of the river and the Soviets on the other. In order to meet the Soviets after exiting a tunnel which they had used to escape the Nazis, people would have needed to cross the river.

Your stupidity is reaching levels which make your trolling very obvious, please try harder next time.

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #28

In order to meet the Soviets after exiting a tunnel which they had used to escape the Nazis, people would have needed to cross the river

Excuse me but what are you talking about right now? I believe we've made it clear that the only tunnels were the sewers under Warsaw, the polish Home Army had no business in crossing the river either since the fight was on their side.

Your stupidity is reaching levels which make your trolling very obvious, please try harder next time.

Temper Harry, you may not like me, i certainly dont like you but we can still pretend to be civil for the benefit of others:)

Harry

6 Mar 2009 / #29

Harry please stop being so insulting? Watch, listen and learn the truth.

Stop with the lies Carol. That film (and I have watched it all, I especially liked the bit where they ignored the hundreds of non-USAAF supply flights to Warsaw) says not even a single word about Poles escaping Nazis, coming out of tunnels and being shot by Soviets. You are pathetic.

Sokrates 8 | 3335

6 Mar 2009 / #30

says not even a single word about Poles escaping Nazis, coming out of tunnels and being shot by Soviets. You are pathetic.

You mean Home Army?:)

Stop with the lies Carol. That film (and I have watched it all, I especially liked the bit where they ignored the hundreds of non-USAAF supply flights to Warsaw)

Could you please post a link to those hundreds of USAAF flights? I know that some random flights by Polish volunteers from RAF were done as well as a token few flights by RAF but these were if anything purely symbolic in proportion.