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Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?


Mr Grunwald  33 | 2138  
17 Jun 2009 /  #361
Just don't let it rot as the Russians did with the pearl Königsberg once was too under german rule, promised?

So you mean that if Norway didn't expulse the Hansaets in Bergen it would been German? Faen ta deg tjukkas
OP freebird  3 | 532  
17 Jun 2009 /  #362
So you mean that if Norway didn't expulse the Hansaets in Bergen it would been German?

did he say that? lol
Mr Grunwald  33 | 2138  
17 Jun 2009 /  #363
No, he said that thanks to the Hanseats and etc it was prospering also they were North German tradesmen. So he practicly thinks that any city with dominated Hanseatian colture means Germans city, wich is faar from reality.
OP freebird  3 | 532  
17 Jun 2009 /  #364
I believe you misunderstood him, what he said is that hanse was founded in Luebeck Germany. Someone earlier was saying that hanse is from northern Europe but not from Germany, that's it.
SRK85  - | 72  
17 Jun 2009 /  #365
This is what you've learned about it, it's fine with me as long as you accept the fact that there are other people who have completely different opinion about it.

The problem is Danzig/Gdansk changed hands so many times its hard to say who are the rightful heirs to it. It was originally Polish, then Prussian, then German, and then Polish again. Also before ww2 the German population was about 96% which could have been because the Germans forced the Poles out.
Mr Grunwald  33 | 2138  
17 Jun 2009 /  #366
Yepp, from my point of view Poles have most right to that place. Before ww2 it was really OK that it was "shared" even tho it was many nazi prinks there -.-
OP freebird  3 | 532  
17 Jun 2009 /  #367
It was originally Polish,

I disagree with this point. Like I said, we've learned different history and I assume you're Polish so automatically you can't switch off your emotions when it comes to historical facts connected with your country. I observed this many times, not only on this forum that it's almost impossible to discuss certain subjects with Poles especially when it's about Polish-German or Polish-Russian history. When I first created this thread, all my hope was that maybe the new generation of Poles has changed and that an open discussion will be possible without dropping the level of our conversation. I'm not necessarily talking about you even tho you show the same tendency as few other PF members with the difference that you're trying to discuss and not cuss which makes it more acceptable.

Have a good 1
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
17 Jun 2009 /  #368
Danzig got rich because of being a member of the Hanse (not a polish invention either).

Danzing got rich because it was trading Polish grain, Polish leather, Polish cattle, Polish...everything?

PS: Yes Danzig is Gdansk now but to show off tourists the old, famous, beautiful Danzig and to say it's all polish is just a lie and everybody who has just an inkling of history knows that, period!

Of course there's plenty of beatifull buildings by Germans, you added greatly to the city but you didnt make it what it was or what it is, i'm opposing selling it as a German achievement thats all.

Without the Germans your Gdansk would have sh*it to show off!

dworartusa

Polish built.

buczkowski.net.pl/obrazy/ratusz_01.jpg
Gdańsk town hall, guess what? Polish built (though there were also architects from Netherlands contributing there but hopefully that doesnt make it from Holland for you:)

Sorry BB but since Poland is no longer a communist country and our voice is going to be heard louder and louder you're going to have to come to grips with a lot of uncomfortable things in time, like Poland having its golden age and leaving traces of it, like many of "your" lands being disputable and many of what was sold as your achievements being in fact ours.
Harry  
17 Jun 2009 /  #369
Polish...everything

The classicalist Polish view of what is Polish!

Sorry BB but since Poland is no longer a communist country and our voice is going to be heard louder and louder you're going to have to come to grips with a lot of uncomfortable things

Does that mean that Poland is going to come to grips with a lot of uncomfortable things too? Things like: Polish collaboration with the nazis; Polish communism; Poland not being betrayed by the UK in WWII; Poland stabbing its Ukrainian allies in the back and stealing half of their country. Already Polish attempts to rewrite history have started, your government mounts a campaign against any mention of Polish concentration camps and government websites repeat tired old lies about your WWII allies.
sjam  2 | 541  
17 Jun 2009 /  #370
Polish concentration camps

Do you mean Bereza Kartuska?
1jola  14 | 1875  
17 Jun 2009 /  #371
Right on cue you two shills pop up. What a surprise.
Harry  
17 Jun 2009 /  #372
Do you mean Bereza Kartuska?

I was mainly talking about the post-WWII camps.

Right on cue you two shills pop up. What a surprise.

And right on cue our favourite Polish traitor comes to add nothing to the debate but ad hom comments!
1jola  14 | 1875  
17 Jun 2009 /  #373
You call your drivel a debate? I'm surprised you haven't mention Polish anti-semitism, but it's morning so you still are warming up. Hard day's work is ahead of you, gotta earn those shekels.
Harry  
17 Jun 2009 /  #374
So we can now safely say that you have nothing at all to say about: Polish collaboration with the nazis; Polish communism; Poland not being betrayed by the UK in WWII; Poland stabbing its Ukrainian allies in the back and stealing half of their country.

But then you have nothing to say about how you have the gall to claim that you're a Polish patriot when you spent years ready to bomb Poland anytime your paymasters told you to.
sjam  2 | 541  
17 Jun 2009 /  #375
Right on cue you two shills pop up. What a surprise.

No surprise that to date this is your only contribution to this thread :-))

Shill abbreviation of the Yiddish shillaber. The word originally denoted a carnival worker who pretends to be a member of the audience in an attempt to elicit interest in an attraction.

So my job is to attract interest in clowns like you — oh, I love my job! LOL
1jola  14 | 1875  
17 Jun 2009 /  #376
So we can now safely say that you have nothing at all to say about: Polish collaboration with the nazis; Polish communism; Poland not being betrayed by the UK in WWII; Poland stabbing its Ukrainian allies in the back and stealing half of their country.

But then you have nothing to say about how you have the gall to claim that you're a Polish patriot when you spent years ready to bomb Poland anytime your paymasters told you to.

We can safely say that you want steer every discussion to your favorite topic - how to spit on the country that gives shelter to a stateless midget like you.

I don't "claim" to be a patriot; it's natural to love your country. How does one explain that to someone like you who doesn't have one?

Harry:
Polish concentration camps
Do you mean Bereza Kartuska?

You call this a contribution to this thread. This has been discussed over and over.
Harry  
17 Jun 2009 /  #377
I don't "claim" to be a patriot; it's natural to love your country. How does one explain that to someone like you who doesn't have one?

You loved Poland so much that you wanted to drop bombs on it? How does that work? Or do you mean that the country you love is the country whose armed forces you joined, i.e. the USA?

the country that gives shelter to a stateless midget like you.

Three points:
Firstly, Poland does not give me shelter, Poland (in the form of her government) asked me to come to Poland and help Poland by working for the state.

Secondly, I am far from stateless. I have citizenship from two nations already and am pondering which of the further offers of citizenship to accept.

And finally, you'd know more about whether I'm a midget or a giant if you would carry out your threat to come looking for me. Tonight I'll be in the Warsaw Tortilla Factory, do drop by with all your police friends.
sjam  2 | 541  
17 Jun 2009 /  #378
it's natural to love your country

So much love for country that you didn't return until after its freedom was won by those other than yourself ... clown LOL



... I expect the rest will be Moderated out ;-))
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11935  
17 Jun 2009 /  #379
Wow, there seems to be nothing impossible for Poles. I even begin to suspect Pompei and Rome as well were built by Poles within Roman empire, while the Romans were living in palm trees watching as your anscestors were raising the cities ;)

...spot on!

Although I believe Poland always had the right to the Danzig/Gdansk corridor

Well...

and still do in Europe. Lost both WWI and WWII and being #4 richest country in the World. What does it tell you, you "wise sokrates" What have you achieved in that time? Yes you're achieving now a little but only with the cash floating from western Europe.

Oh and the argument with the Marshall plan won't wash. As GB and France became much more and they still stayed broke.
Not to mention that even the burden of re-unification with eastern Germany still couldn't kill the economical success and they even became export world champion in spit of it...

I want to see another country which could have pulled this off.
Not only one "Wirtschaftswunder" but two...

I think that even in the tombs many of them will turn over to disturb a dog's peaceful pissing on their graves in the morning silence.
They just can't handle the truth.

*nods*

So you mean that if Norway didn't expulse the Hansaets in Bergen it would been German? Faen ta deg tjukkas

The Hanse is a german invention. (Even the name is german)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

The Hanseatic League (also known as the Hansa) was an alliance of trading cities and their guilds that established and maintained a trade monopoly along the coast of Northern Europe, from the Baltic to the North Sea and inland, during the Late Middle Ages and early modern period (c.13th-17th centuries).

It grew big and included many formerly poor and unknown cities who grew now rich through trade.
The Hanse was something like the EU, they had their own laws, even their own protection, even their fashion and architecture became similiar to each other.

You can feel the proud, wealthy past in every careful preserved Baltic city which was once a member of the Hanse.
A german invention, again nothing polish about it!
(But who knows...in one hundred years a Pole will come and tell the EU a polish achievement)

Also before ww2 the German population was about 96% which could have been because the Germans forced the Poles out.

Any link to support that accusation???

Of course there's plenty of beatifull buildings by Germans, you added greatly to the city but you didnt make it what it was or what it is, i'm opposing selling it as a German achievement thats all.

Well...tell that the tourists guides in Danzig who have to point out all the german achievements in the town!

Another "polish achievement"..printing:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_printing_in_Poland

The history of printing in Poland began in the late 15th century, when following the creation of the Gutenberg Bible in 1455, printers from Western Europe spread the new craft abroad.

The Polish capital at the time was in Kraków, where scholars, artists and merchants from Western Europe had already been present. Other cities which were part of the Polish kingdom followed later.
Cities of northern Polish province of Royal Prussia.[1], like the Hanseatic League city of Danzig (Gdansk), had established printing houses early on.

The first printing shop was possibly opened in Cracow (Kraków) by Augsburg-based Günther Zainer in 1465.

All Poles of course, weren't they!

It was just a minor mistake in 150 years on Polish part and as always it was a peaceful conquest. ;) Actually some Polish chronicles testify seeing God in the sky showing them the Promised Land in Ukrainian territories: "Burneth these barbaric people, o Greateth Polandeth, you will rejoiceth, O my belovedeth peaceful nationth" (A.D. 1340 by Rysiek the Monk, monastery of St. John the Pervert).

Yeah...what an angel like people between the russian and german wild barbarians!
So peacy and smart and...and...and...everything!!! *sob*

German architecture in Danzig

members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/230a5f/

...But I didn't know that Fahrenheit (German physycist) was born and lived in Gdansk, too. His scale of temperature is used in the USA and... Jamaica now and 0F was the lowest temperature he once measured in Gdansk.

...another polish achievement of course!

And here is the reason: members.virtualtourist.com/m/tt/74aaa/

...Gdansk till 1945 was German city with only small Polish, Kashubian and Masurian minority.

I was taught quite different history at school in 1970' and 1980'. In totalitarian state, my teachers were forced to teach me fake history, that Gdansk was always Polish city with German minority which with huge support of imperialistic forces in the West...

Sokrates even believes it till today...
PlasticPole  7 | 2641  
17 Jun 2009 /  #380
All Poles of course, weren't they!

The achievements happened in Royal Prussia and not Prussia proper which tells you Poles invented it and Germans prolly stole it.
Borrka  37 | 592  
17 Jun 2009 /  #382
Junge I see you've got some serious mental problems !
Posting the list of German achievements every three weeks is becoming your true obsession lol.
I suggest prepare some kind time line with the most important facts...starting ww1, starting ww2, first KZ, gas chamber invention ... etc.etc.
Don't forget the greatest thinker Marx, Engels, Rosenberg...
And now this funny coalition...
Self healing of old zone-complexes ?
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
17 Jun 2009 /  #383
All Poles of course, weren't they!

You're again mistaking points i'm making for chauvinism, i never denied Germans a great deal of achievements what i do oppose is marginalization of considerable Polish cultural and civilizational achievements, the great development of regions and cities, what you view as rewriting history for us is asserting our position in the face of not always true German outlook on history.

The problem with German-Polish relations is that you were so keen on proving we're small in all regards you believed it yourself, we're definitely not as big as we sell ourselves to be but much bigger than German perception gives us credit for.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11935  
17 Jun 2009 /  #384
Junge I see you've got some serious mental problems !
Posting the list of German achievements every three weeks is becoming your true obsession lol.

Well...it's easy for me to point them out to you.
Want some more?

I suggest prepare some kind time line with the most important facts...starting ww1, starting ww2, first KZ, gas chamber invention ... etc.etc.

That's a polish obsession...:)

Don't forget the greatest thinker Marx, Engels, Rosenberg...

At least we have some...

You're again mistaking points i'm making for chauvinism,

What points?
That holy, mighty Poland could have "squashed Germany like a bug"???
Sorry Sokrates, that's not a point but wishful thinking!

That Danzig is full of polish achievements?
Why don't we just compare???

never denied Germans a great deal of achievements

You do nothing else or we wouldn't have this discussion (b*itchfest, flame war).

The problem with German-Polish relations is that you were so keen on proving we're small in all regards

As in "Poles won all battles against the Germans" or "Poland could have squashed Germany like a bug"???

we're definitely not as big as we sell ourselves to be but much bigger than German perception gives us credit for.

I'm all for sharing, you know that...I always said that these lands have been "polman" since ages.
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
17 Jun 2009 /  #385
You do nothing else or we wouldn't have this discussion

What did i deny? I've stated that Gdańsk was built and for most of its history inhabited by Poles and provided sources, the only one opposing those was Freebird who's argumentation was "COMMUNISTROTFLLMAO".

Then you said Poles did nothing with Gdańsk, i provided you with a few examples of Polish architecture including Gdańsk town hall.

Then you said Gdańsk got rich because of being a member of Hanza, i rebuked that Gdańsk got rich because of trading Polish goods which it did on account of being the major harbor on the coast of Poland.

As you can see the issue here is not denying any German achievements but you unwilling to accept Polish ones :)

As in "Poles won all battles against the Germans" or "Poland could have squashed Germany like a bug"???

Poland could have destroy Meklemburgia or Prussia at a certain period yes, whats so strange about it? As for wars Poland won several wars, so did Germany, comparison of power is meaningless since by the time Germany rose to power Poland was well in decline.

That Danzig is full of polish achievements?
Why don't we just compare???

Of course! What shall we start with? How about historical sites though i'd be carefull if i were you, the town hall is by far not the only one.

That's a polish obsession...:)

Not really no, you're just used to Poland not speaking with its own voice and have a problem with a more assertive neighbour, people like Kaczyńscy are treated as idiots here which is why they lost the elections.
Bratwurst Boy  8 | 11935  
17 Jun 2009 /  #386
Poland could have destroy Meklemburgia

Oooh please...the odd cow roaming the fields doesn't count!
Nathan  18 | 1349  
17 Jun 2009 /  #387
campaign against any mention of Polish concentration camps and government websites repeat tired old lies about your WWII allies.

So true.

Do you mean Bereza Kartuska?

Was it the only one?

Central Labour Camp Jaworzno (Polish: Centralny Obóz Pracy w Jaworznie, COP Jaworzno) was a concentration camp in Jaworzno, Poland. It operated from 1943 until 1956, run first by Nazi Germany and then by the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of Poland. Estimated over 9,000 people died in the camp, and several thousand more prisoners were executed elsewhere.

COP Jaworzno was selected for detention of Lemko and Ukrainian civilians. The first transportation of 17 Operation Wisła prisoners reached the special subcamp of Jaworzno on May 5, 1947, from Sanok. The number of these prisoners until March 1949 totalled 3,936 (3,760 of them arrived in 1947 alone), including 823 women and dozens of children. Most prisoners at that time were Lemko intelligentsia, people suspected of sympathy towards the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, priests and people otherwise selected by Polish communist forces from Operation Wisła transports. About 15% of those captured in the operation are estimated to have died in the camps.

Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski who also calls it a concentration camp notes that the establishment of the facility was a norm of its times

So this is Ok, right? It was "norm of the time". Others did it, so we can do it too. Nice reasoning.
Sokrates  8 | 3335  
17 Jun 2009 /  #388
COP Jaworzno was selected for detention of Lemko and Ukrainian civilians. The first transportation of 17 Operation Wisła prisoners reached the special subcamp of Jaworzno on May 5, 1947

As for £emko population it was a tragic mistake and a crime of the communist regime, as for Ukrainian population you guys should be glad there was Russia to protect you, without Russia you would be facing a retaliatory invasion as soon as Berlin fell.

About 15% of those captured in the operation are estimated to have died in the camps

As for UPA i wouldnt cry if communist goverment executed all of these people, as for imprisoning innocent civilians thats always wrong, however lets not forget the crimes that Ukrainian Insurgent Army commited on Polish civilians (because you were completely unable to fight against our Home Army).
Harry  
17 Jun 2009 /  #389
without Russia you would be facing a retaliatory invasion as soon as Berlin fell.

I assume that would be retaliation for the invasion and occupation which followed WWI?

Oh, sorry, my mistake. After WWI Poland stabbed her Ukrainian allies in the back, did a deal with the Soviets and carved up Ukraine between Poland and the USSR. And then she set off on 20 years of repression of UKrainians.

Have you considered ever reading any history books which weren't written by Polish communists?
Borrka  37 | 592  
17 Jun 2009 /  #390
That's a polish obsession...:)

Actually I've got no obsessions at all cause I don't care too much about the past.
And if you think I wake up obsessed with hatred towards Germany or Russia then you're totally wrong.

With all respect to your technical skills or achievements European history doesn't give Germans right to teach us any lessons.
We don't owe you anything - for us the total outcome of the Polish-German relationship was more than negative..
In some political sense you were mostly wrong (when allowed to act on your own).
So better get used to your new position of a medium sized country on the European city dump.

Try to forget your incurable megalomania, the Kulturträger myth, leading position in the EU...
It's over.
Time to get real.
Maybe to catch up with the Netherlands lol.

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