Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 390

Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?


Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #301
Running is the best option for some, since there is no room for any kind of dialog with some people.

run bunny run ......))))))
You seems to understand what ***bird meant - would you care to enlighten me?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442  
15 Jun 2009 /  #302
Well, I would have to write an essay and I would rather let freebird explain it to you. That is if you are really interested.

Somehow I think that you are not ready. Freebird does not seem to be emotionally attached to Poland unlike yourself and that makes a huge difference. He is taking a more objective position, therefore I am able to understand him better. He is also more realistic about what Poland can or cannot do. You are a little bit sentimental, with a lot of wishful thinking which is probably related to the Poland's past. It is all nice but in a long run there is a higher chance that you might set your self for being dissapointed, because you are not paying enough attentions to facts. I am speculating here and speaking in general, but I think I am pretty close to describing what I have observed reading some of your posts. Therefore, the is little room for a dialog with some Polish people. Close minds could be very frustrating to deal with.

got myself of this one;)
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #303
Well, I would have to write an essay and I would rather let freebird explain it to you. That is if you are really interested.

but I'm and I asked ***bird for explanation but he only were mocking me.....
If you're offended because I called you moron, I'm sorry but I find it inappropriate to laugh at the expense of the fallen Polish soldiers......

Somehow I think that you are not ready.

try me!
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442  
15 Jun 2009 /  #304
try me!

I edited my post, so look above;), I just spoke in general terms.

But you can ask me for more explanations if you like.
OP freebird 3 | 532  
15 Jun 2009 /  #305
explanation

how much more explanation do you need Ironside? I've been saying over and over again how I feel about things and presenting websites to back up my point but you guys kept coming back with your bull**it and tried to ridicule me just because I disagree with the way you both think about Polish and German history. If you both kept our discussion on acceptable level, we wouldn't have to run this battle.
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #306
But you can ask me for more explanations if you like.

Well, I do..... about ***bird post and yours as well because you are right its a very general!

You are a little bit sentimental, with a lot of wishful thinking which is probably related to the Poland's past.

***bird may well be emotionally detached from Poland but it doesn't make his opinions better ?

Realistic ?
Are you talking about Lwów?
Whats realistic, I know pretty well that Poland wont get back Lwów overnight )))))
But if some aim is not possible to achieve tomorrow or next year its that mean we cannot talk about it?
I'm sentimental about my country but it doesn't mean I'm not realistic - maybe more so then yourself!!
How 26 years old Sokrates is post communist bastard?- quote ***bird !
OP freebird 3 | 532  
15 Jun 2009 /  #307
Ironside

I told you "ironside the brave" will be back, he just can't quit "fighting" and making himself look worse than ever before.

You see ironside, I gave you a chance for normal conversation just a second ago (look above) but you obviously refused it. You don't deserve a second chance.

To be continued after the break, lol
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442  
15 Jun 2009 /  #308
***bird may well be emotionally detached from Poland but it doesn't make his opinions better ?

I never said that it was. I happen to agree with his way of thinking more then with yours. It is just the way it is.

As for being less attached emotionally, I think it actually helps to think in a logical way. Just my opinion. I think I already explained that:).

Whats realistic, I know pretty well that Poland wont get back Lwów overnight )))))

that is just an example. As far as I know Lvow, or any other cities which used to belong to Poland are on another's countries territory. Correct me if I am wrong. How you going to bring those cities back? do you have a plan: A,B,C. You need to have a strategy:).

But if some aim is not possible to achieve tomorrow or next year its that mean we cannot talk about it?

sure you can talk about it, but you need to stay within the reality of facts.

I'm sentimental about my country but it doesn't mean I'm not realistic - maybe more so then yourself!!

I would not know and I would not want this exchange of ideas to become a competition. I wish Poland all the best but I also know that there is a lot of room for improvement in many areas and this is what young people should concentrate on, instead of dreaming about : I wish we had Lvow/Wilno and so on. This is not a main stream of the Polish foreign policies either, so it does sound really strange to me.

How 26 years old Sokrates is post communist bastard?- quote ***bird !

Well, he have heard it at home for sure. Most children follow their parent's political views.
Again, with so many young people still making other countries their home, how can one even imagine invading Ukraine? Or any other country for that matter. Poland is not a military empire/ nor an economic one

I am done here. I think I made my point very clear.
PS. calling your opponent names in the discussion is just not classy at all and you might want to reconsider, since you don't present yourself as a serious partner.
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #309
You see ironside, I gave you a chance for normal conversation just a second ago (look above) but you obviously refused it.

You obviously didn't understand "There no more from me" read - There no more from me to you freebrid!
So, your "second chance" .....simply doesn't apply !
I meant no offense !
I'm direct ))))
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442  
15 Jun 2009 /  #310
sure, but keep your cools and try to be more open to the opinion of others.

Back on topic everyone please...
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #311
You need to have a strategy:).

First I need consensus :::

sure you can talk about it, but you need to stay within the reality of facts.

Was there any lie or fantasy ?

This is not a main stream of the Polish foreign policies either, so it does sound really strange to me.

Its obvious that some thing in Poland are priority, whats more it is impossible to do anything in the foreign matters before setting things right in Poland - it goes without saying !

Sound strange? Thats another reason to talk about it
- as communism castrated Poles - do you think anyone before a war or better still in 1956 would say - lets forget about Lwów and Wilno?

Poland is not a military empire/ nor an economic one

oh boy ! Don't you think I'm not aware of that?
I wasn't talking about plans to invade another country )))))) I was talking about our rights to those territories!
Thank You for your time!
But you still haven't explained to me post by bird!?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
15 Jun 2009 /  #312
I wasn't talking about plans to invade another country )))))) I was talking about our rights to those territories!

So why talking about things you can't change anyhow?

Poles get very nervous about one little woman called Steinbach and she isn't even talking about "rights" but only remembrance.

What should the Ukrainians think or feel listening to Poles talking like you Iron?
Ironside 50 | 11,110  
15 Jun 2009 /  #313
What should the Ukrainians think or feel listening to Poles talking like you Iron?

Should admit that such right exists ))))))))
Because its true !

People are not nervous, politician are making most of it in accord with Germans newspaper.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,703  
16 Jun 2009 /  #314
Should admit that such right exists ))))))))
Because its true !

And then?
SRK85 - | 72  
16 Jun 2009 /  #315
Well this is obviously a tough question my ancestors came from areas like Tarnapol which is now in Ukraine. But the new areas gained from the Germans had better infrastructure and more industry. So Poland now is probably the best shape its been in since the Polish-Lithuanian Empire.
OP freebird 3 | 532  
16 Jun 2009 /  #316
Should admit that such right exists ))))))))
Because its true !

you mean like the rights for Germans to claim Danzig, Ostpreussen,
Pommern and Schlesien?

But the new areas gained from the Germans had better infrastructure and more industry

you're absolutely right about that :-)
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
16 Jun 2009 /  #317
you mean like the rights for Germans to claim Danzig, Ostpreussen,
Pommern and Schlesien?

freebird, are you a am german?
OP freebird 3 | 532  
16 Jun 2009 /  #318
I tell you something PlasticPole. I'm a numismatist (I'm collecting old coins, especially the ones from Danzig) so obviously it means I love history and I read many books about my favorite subject and after what I have read about it and also after what I have experienced on my own visiting both countries Poland and Germany, I'm absolutely convinced that the territories I've mentioned above rightly belong to Germany. What I'm not saying is that Poles have to give it back to the Germans. I'm not expecting you guys to share my opinion, all I want from Poles is to admit that these territories used to be German and at the same time I want you to enjoy this beautiful piece of land being Polish now. What's so tough about that? I mean you have it, no one will take it away from you, just admit that before 1945 it wasn't yours. It's like winning a $1000.oo from you playing poker. You had the money and I won it so it's mine now. Simple is that.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #319
I love history

How can you love history if you dont know it?:) You're claiming that Germans have rights to historically Polish or Czech regions?:)))))))
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Jun 2009 /  #320
Sokrates, you haven't refuted what I put to you. Namely that Bolesław Chrobry didn't win the territory in AD 997. He fought for it but the Prussians were just too strong and they didn't relinquish control.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #321
Absolutely, Pomerania was conquered by Polish units and relinquished to 7 Teutonic Knights who occupied Vogelsang, so Poles did break the Prussians at 1230, what happened after was merry German genocide of peoples who's military might was being systematically broken by Poles for about a century.

Pomeranian lands were nominally Polish, in reality Prussian and were given to Teutonic Order as vasaldom, then of course Teutons annexed the lands so we have an illegal German action on lands that pro jure belonged to Poles.

As far as Danzing is concerned its still a Polish city untill the Teutons commit first genocide and achieve political authority there.

On another interesting note, Poles didnt conquer Prussia because they were unwilling to commit genocide.

Leszek Biały was famous for refusing to decimate civilian population of the conquered region (which resulted in his enemies having the manpower to eventually evict him) Teutonic knights achieved success because of their merry embrace of genocide which is food for thought, whether Germans during WW2 murdered because of the influence of the period or whether there's some genetically conditioned element in Germans as such.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Jun 2009 /  #322
That was not what I asked you, Sokrates. I asked you if BC, son of Mieszko I, won the battle in 997 AD, the year considered and largely agreed to be the year that Gdańsk was founded.

I'm aware of the history that followed but I specifically asked you about 997 AD. Once again, were the Prussians overcome in 997 AD, yes or no?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #323
That was not what I asked you, Sokrates. I asked you if BC, son of Mieszko I, won the battle in 997 AD

Erm i scrolled back and couldnt find the question so i assumed you were referring to the Prusowie, what was the question then?
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Jun 2009 /  #324
At the end of post 372
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #325
Seanus
Ah no they were not but what does it matter for Gdańsk question? Prusowie were tribals, Poland had strongholds all over the place and interacted with them on a peacefull foot (when not crusading against them) the lands were interlocking and its not like there was a state of total constant war between the two.
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Jun 2009 /  #326
I've made it crystal clear above, Sokrates. America has strongholds everywhere in countless numbers of countries, does that make it American territory? I'll put it to you another way, 'was what we know today as Gdańsk under Prussian control in 997 AD, the date of its founding?'
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649  
16 Jun 2009 /  #327
What I'm not saying is that Poles have to give it back to the Germans.

I dunno. Didn't they used to be part of the Commonwealth? At one time it was large.
Juche 9 | 292  
16 Jun 2009 /  #328
if you had a chance would you change it back to what Poland was before or prefer it the way it is now?

smart people would choose on behalf of the collective the Poland between the two reactionary Polands you mention of course. Poland before WWII was a rusticated swamp, the Poland now is the crass puppet state which kow-tows to international investment class who scurry like rats in drive for conquest and privatiseation. Poland between these two was shining beacon of socialistic victorious progress define by tractors, welders, and shock troops.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
16 Jun 2009 /  #329
I've made it crystal clear above, Sokrates. America has strongholds everywhere in countless numbers of countries, does that make it American territory?

Oh the teritory at the time was in reality Prussian, the city of Gdańsk however was Polish, a Polish city built in Prussian teritory, as to how it was possible? Prusowie were tribals, there was no united front against the Polish expansion, Poland built cities and settled entire regions but the majority of the place was definitely Prussian.

I'll put it to you another way, 'was what we know today as Gdańsk under Prussian control in 997 AD, the date of its founding?'

If you're heading for Prussian built or inhabited city then no, there's conclusive evidence that Mieszko built it by both the contemporaries saying so and by digging out earth-wood walls and other items/bits of architecture.

By that time German tribes built everything starting with a small stone keep surrounded by a pallisade, Prusowie just made woodworks and stockades and Poles built their cities with a specific design of earth-wood "wał" wall.



Thats one example, the one at Gdańsk was a different type but also at the time exclusively Polish, Prussian "wały" were basically artificial hills with a stockade on top, also there's items that belonged to Polanie (the main Polish tribe at the time) so there's no chance the locals had anything to do with the harbors construction and were unlikely to inhabit the city proper.

Oh also Sean Gdańsk was the first urban project in the region, there were undoubtedly villages all over the place but its the first city, i'll dig you up the detailed archeologicall story its in polish but you shouldnt have any trouble:)
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
16 Jun 2009 /  #330
OK, thanks :) Different times, different ways.

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?Archived