World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World

So inviting 15 Poles fulfills moral obligation to the whole nation in your opinion. Congratulation, Harry, on your outstanding moral standards.


It's inconvenient. For you.

there is no pointing in asking that question, i have had many a discussion on here and all they seem to want to do is complain complain and complain some more, they like to be the victim and especially love playing out the role.

I wish they would look forward too, it does seem though its an older generation thing though, the young Poles i've met don't sit around a bottle of vodka, smoking talking about how bad things were 60 years + ago.

They are currently being worked on ;)

Harry, when will England open Ministry of Polish Whining Matters? I think it is indispensable ;) And I think Poland should finance it as well.
Also you have to know whether to invite 15 or 16 people from Poland for a parade in order not to undermine foreign relations. World diplomacy should become more like Japanese tea ceremony matter where years and years of practice is necessary to be able to deal with one country's constant b*tching.

As soon as they close their own. Do you remember that American movie "U 571" or something couple years back? They were so upset that Americans claimed solving Enigma that there was a protest in British parliament about it. And Poland is hardly the only nation with bone of contention: Greece keeps complaining about returning those Elgin marbles they nicked from Acropolis for years to no avail.

I have repeatedly stated that IMO the British were less than honourable, Churchill in particular, in his dealings with the Poles, and especially Anders, after Tehran. However the British government did redress the balance to some small degree despite fierce opposition from within its own F.O. some M.P.s; a significant part of the British public, and Labour Unions; and against the demands of the Warsaw government:



May I remind you that it was you who discussed the numbers, you said 15 as not being enough "out of millions" of Poles. "Out of millions" being totally ludicrous! So if its not about numbers then the "inconvenient facts" (for you) remains that former members Polish Forces of the West (and those from Warsaw) were invited to the London victory parade 1946. End of.

Good question Nathan.
Most of the sources consider Hitler's Cossacks to be a nation what is wrong.
Even professional historians speak of Russian, Ukrainian and Cossack collaborators.

I would rather say they (Cossacks) were Soviet POWs of various ethnic origin.
Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian and last but not least ... Soviet.
For German authorities it was rather impossible to tell Russian speaking East-Ukrainian from his Soviet "brother" from Tambov unless he declared himself as "Ukrainian".

For that reason any information on Ukrainian participation in Warsaw Uprising is some approximation only - the number of Ukrainians vary from 1.5 to 7.5% of the (total) pacifying troops.

And "209" can be hardly called Ukrainian, "Cossack" only.

Lets see than: during the opening stages of WWII Poland was the second Ally, as it mobilized roughly 1 million of soldiers. Just compare that with the tiny British Army of the time. When it comes to all Polish military formations of WWII (that is both the ones loyal to the government and the ones loyal to Moscow), it is assumed that roughly 2 million men passed through the front-line units (not counting sympatizers, intelligence and all that stuff).

Also, at the end of WWII the Polish forces were quite numerous. Roughly 200.000 in the West, (100.000 in the 1st Corps plus Navy plus 1st Armoured plus PAF), roughly 300.000 at home (that is in the Home Army) and some 400.000 loyal to the USSR. So, without all the minor resistance organisations, at the end of the War Poland was still contributing some 900.000 men to the Allied cause. Just compare that with 1.250.000 men of the French forces at the end of 1945.

So "out of millions" is fair in my estimation.

What on the German side?

Bzibzioh, next you'll including the entire population of wartime Poland of what? Some 20+(?) millions I don't know :-))


You fail to take into account all those armed forces from the British Empire & Commonwealth as they joined Britain in declaring war on Germany for Poland's cause; just how many countries and service men do you think this included ???? I have no idea but am sure you can find this out?

But at least you have seem to have at last accepted "the facts" that Poles (from London and Warsaw) were invited to take part in the London victory parade!

Would this be the same British army that Poles never cease to blame for not invading Germany in 1939? Nice of you to finally acknowledge that the British army was too small to do anything against Germany. I assume that you will post to that effect any time in the future that anybody says that Britain didn't do enough for Poland in 1939.

As for you comment about numbers of invitees: how many of the millions of American and Russian soldiers who fought in WWII were invited to the parade? Oh, yes: none. For exactly the same reason as only Polish airmen were invited: it was a parade for Commonwealth/Empire forces and Allied airforces.

So according to you the Polish Armed Forces in the West although one of the largest Allied contingents were actually not allies?

They were not invited for exactly the same reason as it has been said so many times before, you were to scared to **** off uncle Joe and now people like you Harry are just too ashamed to admit it. Face it You're still a coward Harry, You can't face the truth.

Poland was an allied nation, that is why it was invited to send representatives of its airforce. The western command Poles were also Allied, that is why they were invited to send representatives of their airforce.


They were invited. Both western command Poles and the official government of Poland were invited. Neither showed up.


Face it: you're still a liar. You have to lie.

Let me see how well you describe yourself, twist the facts to fit your point of view and refuse to see the truth.


Was Mexico represented? Was Mexico a Commonwealth/Empire force? Or Allied air-forces?
The only Mexican Air Force unit that I'm aware of to serve overseas during World War II was the Aztec Eagles, they fought to liberate the Philippines never flew over Europe.

Same question for Argentina? which declared war on Germany and Japan when the war was all but over. To be fair, over 750 Argentine volunteers fought in the British, South African and Canadian Air Forces. So according to your statement they should have bee represented by the above mentioned countries. You see Harry its you that is a liar. How both of those countries be represented in the victory parade and not meeting the criteria of not needing the official invitation? The answer should be simple enough even for you Harry, it's because they were extended the invitation and what you have wrote is just one big lie. Either your logic is failing you or You lie which is it?

So you went from "Out of millions" being totally ludicrous! to just not liking my numbers. "Inconvenient facts" much?


As I stated before even if such an invitation for 15 pilots was in fact issued, it still equals to nil. It was simply impossible to accept by anyone with shred of self-respect.


I did not acknowledge such a thing; British army was small but that does not mean incapable of fighting. I assume they were able to do more than iron their pretty army uniforms.

Mexico was invited to send an honour guard for its flag, and did just that. Poland was invited to do the same. Which flag would you have liked the western command to have paraded with? Or do you think that Poland should have been invited to parade two Polish flags? Special treatment for the Poles and if they don't get it, they sulk. How familiar.


According to the official programme of the parade, they were represented by those countries. Read and learn that Argentina was not invited.


Read the official program and you'll see that only one of those countries was represented, i.e. you're lying yet again.


Either you have no interest in historical fact or your interest in lying is far stronger, which is it?


Really? The reason the western command Poles didn't accept had nothing to do with the number of invites. How nice of you to describe brave men as having not a shred of self-respect. They wanted to be joined by representatives of the western command navy and army. And when they couldn't get their way, all the Polish toys went out of the pram. A condition which, as we can see in this thread, continues until today.


And, as is traditional when speaking to a Pole who says that the British army should have attacked Germany in 1939, where exactly would you like them to have attacked Germany from? I won't hold my breath waiting for your answer: we both know I'll never get one.

Poland had a small but capable navy. How well did they fight? The better boats ran for safety days before the first shots were fired and the rest of the surface fleet went out of port precisely once (and promptly dumped the navy's stock of mines over the side in case the things blew up and hurt somebody). Did the Polish navy have especially pretty uniforms?

Stalin had objected to a Polish presence at the ceremonies, and his wishes were obeyed by the British Bulldog, who was afraid of offending his master.


Here's an interesting historical fact for you.
It's not what happened at the parade, that's just a symbol for the injustice and humiliation we had to endure from our so called friends and allies. With a new geopolitical reality setting over Europe at that time, that was one thing that Britain could have done with honor and at the very least show the appreciation to the soldiers who fought for her freedom regardless of the politics but you chose not to. What was Anthony Eden's pledge to the Polish troops as they arrived in England after the fall of France.“We shall not abandon your sacred cause and shall continue this war until your beloved country be returned to her faithful sons.” Translation (F**k your country as long as mine is saved what I have just said can be considered a motivational speech) or Churchill for that matter when he said "We shall conquer together or we shall die together". Translation (You die for us and we shall see what scraps should be given to you, if any). All just a bunch of empty rhetoric. Words spoken by true politicians, with passion but no real conviction behind them or intention of ever keeping the promise. I must admit as a representative of the British you do uphold the standards set forth to you by your predecessors very well indeed. These things will repeat over and over, again and again as long as there are people like you Harry who will do anything possible to deny the truth and hide behind some pathetic excuse that only make sense to the guilty mind, no surprise really taking into account all the other nonsense you wrote about Poland on this forum.

An appropriate symbol too, given that Poles love to lie about it and create a false reality which makes the British out to be the villans of the piece. Funny how you never mention any of the American victory parades or the number of times the USAAF dropped supplies on Warsaw. Don't want to risk your chances of visa-free travel to the USA, eh?


Sorry, I forgot that those Polish troops provided themselves and their families with homes, food and clothes: the British tax-payer gave them nothing.


Poles, by and large, didn't fight against the Red Army that occupied their country, why do you expect the British to do what you were unwilling to?


Given how you lie, lie and lie again, it's no wonder that Poland hasn't learned any lessons from history. You had concentration camps pre-WWII and post-WWII, but when the USA needed a site for an illegal prison, Poland steps right up. After the disasterous alliance with France against a powerfful neighbbour, now you cozy up to the USA and **** off the Russians. As long as Poland doesn't know about its history, it'll continue to make the same mistakes.

Thank you for your corncern, Harry. You present yourself as a guy on some desperately needed mission leading to demythologization of vastly hypocritical Polish history. Get a life.

And BTW: that 'knowing about our history' begins with not blaming Britain for WW2 fiasco by any chance?

.... or Poland not recognising its own mistakes by any chance?

And you and Harry are here every day to point out those mistakes, right?

A curious job you guys have. Harry takes the weekends off, but I see you are here to fill in. You should also get a day off; it's just not fair.

Curious isn't it? These hall monitors dedicate their free time in the most negative manner towards Poles and Poland. There's some sort of psychological need on their part somewhere. If they didn't exist we would have to invent them.

Its a tough job being a troll but somebody's got to do it :-)


Unfortunately you have proved nowhere near creative enough :-)

Internment camps pre-WWII or concentration camps pre-WWII? What's the difference?

If you're saying the Poles ran extermination camps free of foreign influence pre-WWII than cite your source.


If you're of English descent I'd get off your high horse on this one.

Harry, what was your take on Long Kesh? This is a matter of principle. The British government supported internment, detention without trial, invariably rubber stamping the fate of former IRA members who had long since renounced their ties with that organisation.

Find the author Bowyer Bell, he wrote a lot on it. This was my dissertation, Harry, I'd like to raise some of the issue of internment with you. Please cite your sources as I did in a large way.

So, what camps did Poland run?

You certainly are "creative enough" with your fiction. Now take that sour dough look off your face; shake off your little devils that inflict you and attempt to live as a full human.

This is like giving Harry a toy car. I hope Sjam won't ruin it for Harry. Let's hear it again, shall we?

It'll be interesting to see his source ;)

I prefer my rather full life of a troll thanks—especially with so many Polish babies here to feed on ;-)


Polish extermination camps as characterised by Germans extermination camps? Undeniably—no.

Polish internment and concentration camps? Undeniably—yes.

Question asked of Harry...


sjam replies...


sjam,

I am trying to get 'Mr. Literal' a.k.a. Harry, to commit to a definition.